1984 Anti-Sikh Pogrom What Does It Mean To Forgive?

I find this a useful definition.

Forgiveness is my voluntarily giving up my hatred for you for the wrong you have done to me.

Click to expand...

It sort of sounds like the Buddhist, just a bit different. It doesn't involve denying that one was wronged nor does it abrogate the other's responsibility. Evil is not condoned. Nothing is asked of the person who did wrong. In fact, it is all about me and the perpetrator is really sort of incidental.

GURU ARJUN JI SAHIB IS THE EPITOME OF SUCH FORGIVENESS..WHEN SEATED ON THE HOT PLATE AND HAVING BURNING SAND BEING POURED ON HIS HEAD..E DECLARES..dosh na kajhoon devohn...Tera Bhanna MEETHAH Laggeh....I Blame NO ONE..Your WILL is sweet oh Creator...Nanak naam padarth manngeeh..I simply ask of your NAME to be given to me...
It means we dont STORE the HATRED inside of us..becasue as Farid Ji declares..GUSSAH Mann na Handhayeah....Dont keep anger/hatred bottled up inside of you as it is INJURIOUS to your Mental and Physical health !!

But Forgiveness is NOT to be mistaken for or confused with FORGETFULLNESS...we should NEVER FORGET Guru Arjun ji, Guru teg bahdur Ji, many many hundreds of thosuands of shaheeds...1984 included....instead we CELEBRATE THEM FOREVER.
Nations that FORGET are wiped out by History....Nations that NEVER FORGET..remain for ever on the Pages of History...japposatnamwaheguru:

Forgiveness is a huge part of my life. I feel obliged to forgive others that may have caused me personal hurt and pain in the past.
It is very difficult at times to turn the other cheek but If you don't try then you can't do.
None of us are perfect and never will be.
I firmly believe that if I can't forgive others then How do I expect God to forgive me ?

Waheguru

I find it very difficult to forgive, the phrase once bitten twice shy comes to mind, so personally, the way I deal with things is to forget, I find it easier.

Luckysingh said:

Forgiveness is a huge part of my life. I feel obliged to forgive others that may have caused me personal hurt and pain in the past.
It is very difficult at times to turn the other cheek but If you don't try then you can't do.
None of us are perfect and never will be.
I firmly believe that if I can't forgive others then How do I expect God to forgive me ?

Waheguru

Click to expand...

As a Sikh, I have trouble with this. I am not called on "to turn the other cheek." If you hit my cheek or any other part of my anatomy, I am going to defend myself. I might well forgive you afterward, but in the immediate situation, I will defend myself. This generally holds for verbal assaults as well, although I often walk away from those.

As for God/Deity forgiving me, isn't that possible only if I have annoyed Deity in some way? How could I possibly annoy Deity that is "niravair, nirabhoa"? Forgiveness, as I see it, is only possible if one party is offended. The abrahamic faiths are very big on angering God; Sikhi is not. Or is my theology faulty?

I am not certain about offending our human Gurus; can a person without haumai be offended? I can only think that if they can be angered, Guru Gobind Singh ji must be furious at his Khalsa.

Forgiveness, I think, must come from some inner need of my own, not from a desire to please others, even the Deity.

Thank you, Luckysingh, for helping me clarify my thoughts.


I really want to know in very simple terms:

1. What does it mean to forgive?
2. How exactly do I forgive?
3. How do I know if I have forgiven?
4. Can forgiveness, once given, be retracted?

Relating this to the events of 1984 might be helpful, but is not necessary.

I forgive easily depending on the person, I don't know why I would keep the fighting going lol.

Inderjeet Kaur said:

I really want to know in very simple terms:

1. What does it mean to forgive?
2. How exactly do I forgive?
3. How do I know if I have forgiven?
4. Can forgiveness, once given, be retracted?

Relating this to the events of 1984 might be helpful, but is not necessary.

Click to expand...

Again, I think with the events of 1984 forgive and forget come together. If on the whole the events were forgiven, then they would be mostly forgot by now.
But too many innocent lives were taken which makes it too difficult to forgive and forget the bigger picture of this event.
I'm sure out of all the numbers of lives taken, mother's sons, husbands,wives, sisters and brothers lost ..etc.. There will be some--
(1)mothers that may have personally forgiven the person responsible at the crucifying moment and
(2) on the other hand there will still be plenty of mothers that mourn every day and can never forgive the ones responsible at the cold blooded moment.

The no(1) mothers would be mostly ones that have convinced themselves that blaming is not going to bring their son's back, they find it easier to move on by trying to forgive,- this is the only psychological way to help them cope.
But no.(2) mother has to face a living nightmare every morning she wakes up, she simply cannot try to forget and move on.

I realise now that the 'forgiving' with some people is probably more to help them 'forget' so as to help them move on. Ofcourse no one can just bluntly forget a lost one, but they try to forget the nightmare that occured and prefer to remember the other nice moments of the lost one.-This in turn helps their conscience to come to terms with dealing with an unjust death or murder.

I honestly can't speak for anyone at all, but if I had lost an immediate blood relative to this horrible tragic event, then I simply cannot say if I could ever forgive.
I think, until it happens we can't predict our feelings to what the outcomes could be.

Waheguru

Luckysingh said:

Again, I think with the events of 1984 forgive and forget come together. If on the whole the events were forgiven, then they would be mostly forgot by now.
But too many innocent lives were taken which makes it too difficult to forgive and forget the bigger picture of this event.
I'm sure out of all the numbers of lives taken, mother's sons, husbands,wives, sisters and brothers lost ..etc.. There will be some--
(1)mothers that may have personally forgiven the person responsible at the crucifying moment and
(2) on the other hand there will still be plenty of mothers that mourn every day and can never forgive the ones responsible at the cold blooded moment.

The no(1) mothers would be mostly ones that have convinced themselves that blaming is not going to bring their son's back, they find it easier to move on by trying to forgive,- this is the only psychological way to help them cope.
But no.(2) mother has to face a living nightmare every morning she wakes up, she simply cannot try to forget and move on.

I realise now that the 'forgiving' with some people is probably more to help them 'forget' so as to help them move on. Ofcourse no one can just bluntly forget a lost one, but they try to forget the nightmare that occured and prefer to remember the other nice moments of the lost one.-This in turn helps their conscience to come to terms with dealing with an unjust death or murder.

I honestly can't speak for anyone at all, but if I had lost an immediate blood relative to this horrible tragic event, then I simply cannot say if I could ever forgive.
I think, until it happens we can't predict our feelings to what the outcomes could be.

Waheguru

Click to expand...

I am one of those mothers you talk about. My husband, my teenaged son, two brothers and two cousins were killed, in addition to the twin girls I was pregnant with at the time.

I go back and forth. Somedays I am filled with anger and raw pain and truly want to torture those responsible to a slow and painful death. Other days, it all seems so distant as if it had all happened to another person entirely. Those days it is a dull ache, a lonely sadness that cannot be dispelled.

In spite of that, most days I am an upbeat person, reasonably happy and full of the chardi kala spirit. As I have said before, you can't get over these things; at most you can learn to live with them. Accept them and let life continue.

Forgiveness? That comes and goes. Somedays my pride in the courage and the Sikh spirit of my dead men - Khalsa all - outshines any hatred I have toward their murderers. After all, isn't to die in righteous battle a very high aspiration of all Sikhs?

Other days, I see my son lying dead, his head at that odd angle because of a broken neck and I think of my two daughters, just globs of bloody tissue instead of lively vibrant human beings and I see my own loneliness without my beloved husband...I see the grandkids I'll never have, the old age I'll spend alone - and I become furiously angry.

Fortunately the days of love and pride in my men are growing more and the days of hating their killers occurring less often. I am a long way from complete forgiveness, but I am closer than I was. I do believe that incomplete, intermittent forgiveness is better than no forgiveness at all.

Luckysingh ji, your last sentence is profoundly true: until we are actually in the situation we cannot know what our reactions will be. I suggest, though, that if we prepare in advance, if we live as best we can the ideals of our Gurus Sahiban and if we work toward and actually accept the blessing of Amrit, we might be more equipped to deal with whatever comes our way.

Chardi kala to all! icecreamkaur

THE PRACTICALITY OF FORGIVENESS

Bill Clinton once asked Nelson Mandela, who had become his close friend: "I watched you walk down that dirt road to freedom. Now, when you were walking down there, and you realized how long you had been in their prison, didn't you hate them [white people] then? Didn't you feel some hatred?"

“Mandela said, ‘Yes, I did a little bit.’ Then he said, ‘As I felt the anger rising up, I thought to myself, `They have already had you for 27 years. And if you keep hating them, they'll have you again.' And I said, `I want to be free. And so I let it go. I let it go.’”

(roached from an article in Beliefnet.com)

I think Forgiveness is an Essential Ingredient of Life, both to Receive it & to Give it b/c We all Make Mistakes, sometimes Big Ones from Nothing other than FOLLY, Or Pure Stupidity. So I think Forgiveness is important b/c it Releases Everyone from Hatred & Resentment, it Frees People...

But even in big cases like 1984, I think it's Important to have some sort of Intellectual Overlay in your Mind that deters you from doing bad things, from becoming a little bit Detached from the Situation I guess, though that's not really Easy.

Navdeep 88ji,
It's a valid point you make as we shouldn't be carrying resentment and hatred in our minds. To forgive helps free the mind of this weight.

Some people cannot simply forgive and try to walk away from the issue or try to ignore the problem- But the hatred and resentment is still underlying even though one may mentally block this. These underlying thoughts are ones that bring out other problems in ones life or personality.
To be 'free' of such issues and thoughts is not only good but very healthy in the long run for one self.

Forgiveness does not have to be accompanied by forgetting. The 2 things are completely separate emotions and reactions

If we believe that everything comes to us from God, how can I hate the perpetrator, who is only the unwitting agent of God's message to me?
I know that Judaism teaches, "Hate the sin - not the sinner". Does Gurmat support this idea?

Awakeand Singh said:

If we believe that everything comes to us from God, how can I hate the perpetrator, who is only the unwitting agent of God's message to me?
I know that Judaism teaches, "Hate the sin - not the sinner". Does Gurmat support this idea?

Click to expand...

B/c People take things Personally when they are Harmed or their Lifestyle is Disrupted by an Unexpected, Unpleasant & Sometimes Henious Change. Forgiveness is easy to Say, to Describe in theory, but Difficult to Achieve, & I doubt a Simple easy Process, b/c Everyone takes things Personally. We are Immersed in this Life, taught to take Pride in our Relationships, when they are disrupted in a Negative way, it is PRIDE that Stands between Us & God. Pride We NEED for our Worldy Existence but Means nothing to GOD. He Couldn't Care Less, if you think you Deserve this or That, He just Wants you to Obey, to Endure, & Get on w/ Life in a GOOD Way. To Serve Him, thats it. And THAT Takes a Lot of Humbling, which Not Everyone wants to Do... or is Capable of Right Away. I think it takes an INCREDIBLE AMount of Strength to Forgive.

Sorry, the Above was just a Note on your Post which Seemed very Theoretical, so it's Now been Converted into Reality lol.

Mai Harinder Kaur said:

I am one of those mothers you talk about. My husband, my teenaged son, two brothers and two cousins were killed, in addition to the twin girls I was pregnant with at the time.

I go back and forth. Somedays I am filled with anger and raw pain and truly want to torture those responsible to a slow and painful death. Other days, it all seems so distant as if it had all happened to another person entirely. Those days it is a dull ache, a lonely sadness that cannot be dispelled.

In spite of that, most days I am an upbeat person, reasonably happy and full of the chardi kala spirit. As I have said before, you can't get over these things; at most you can learn to live with them. Accept them and let life continue.

Forgiveness? That comes and goes. Somedays my pride in the courage and the Sikh spirit of my dead men - Khalsa all - outshines any hatred I have toward their murderers. After all, isn't to die in righteous battle a very high aspiration of all Sikhs?

Other days, I see my son lying dead, his head at that odd angle because of a broken neck and I think of my two daughters, just globs of bloody tissue instead of lively vibrant human beings and I see my own loneliness without my beloved husband...I see the grandkids I'll never have, the old age I'll spend alone - and I become furiously angry.

Fortunately the days of love and pride in my men are growing more and the days of hating their killers occurring less often. I am a long way from complete forgiveness, but I am closer than I was. I do believe that incomplete, intermittent forgiveness is better than no forgiveness at all.

Luckysingh ji, your last sentence is profoundly true: until we are actually in the situation we cannot know what our reactions will be. I suggest, though, that if we prepare in advance, if we live as best we can the ideals of our Gurus Sahiban and if we work toward and actually accept the blessing of Amrit, we might be more equipped to deal with whatever comes our way.

Chardi kala to all! icecreamkaur

Click to expand...

God Bless you Ji,

your post sent a lightening bolt through my heart.
Please try with all efforts to remain in chardi kala spirit as much as possible
Please continue to your strong faith in Guru Ji, I truely believe when we raise our consciousness during this lifetime as per guru ji's instructions we will understand all such hirrific events and will know that all beloved souls are doing ok on their journey to sach khand. I'm sure of it Ji.

God bless you Ji.

Inderjeet Kaur said:

I am not certain about offending our human Gurus; can a person without haumai be offended? I can only think that if they can be angered, Guru Gobind Singh ji must be furious at his Khalsa.
Guru ji is only fighting our corrupted minds (computer) so that the beauty of our TRUE SELF (soul) can shine through. What they are trying to do is reset the computer (mind), pull the power cable out so to speak. I doubt any anger would be in there...probably more a challenge to WAKE as many people up....if this makes any sense just an opinion

Forgiveness, I think, must come from some inner need of my own, not from a desire to please others, even the Deity.
The test is if we do harm to others, we hope they forgive us.
if they do harm to us, can we forgive them?
sometimes the forgiveness may take time, and the other person may continue to be a prat, but if we have managed to execute this divine power then we move forward spiritually and we encounter less problems in our lives.



I really want to know in very simple terms:

1. What does it mean to forgive?
to understand intially that only god exists, so if only He exists, how can we hate anyone, how can we not forgive. Then When we raise our consciousness as per Guru Ji's instructions, you will undoubtedly have experience of this. Everything is in his hukam, nothing is outside of his hukam. at this physical world conscious level, bad things apear very bad. When you raise your consciosness, you will see the 'bigger' picture and all will appear 'perfect' and you will understand why these good/bad things happen, and you will also know for certain that we never ever die, that we are forever beautiful souls.
2. How exactly do I forgive?
My wife has had a troubled past. for as long as i have known her she had held onto her past, never forgiven anyone. I tell her always that she doesnt need to forget, but she needs to forgive and move forward with the rest of her life. She cannot change the past but she can live a better future. She struggles to see this and continues to this day to get into arguments, verbal fights with these people. she continues to feel hurt and it is affecting her present behaviour/life and will affect her future beahviour/life if she doesnt let go of these shackles.
When she argues, she brings up every little thing from the past that hurt her, and she ends up in even more arguments.
She really must learn to forgive, she would have so much more peace in her life.


3. How do I know if I have forgiven?
If you're able to move forward and not look back. yes you'll always remember what has occured and deal with those things, but they will in no way hold you back, you'll smile and walk forward '100% FREELY' rathern than dragging a long a heavy weight.

During the christmas break, i had a threat against me to take my life and a threat towards my family. Ego kicked in, anger kicked in, mind was saying "revenge, take this person out, no one can threaten me and my family"

Something happened, i cant explain, but at that moment during the threat i said to this person "god bless you and smiled" he didnt know what to do, he felt powerless that i literally had no fear inside of me...i think this is was due to all the simran i had done in previous years, leading to this point. spiritually this precise moment in my life triggered something inside...hard to explain.

I think back at what my life would be like, or what would have occured if anger, hatred, ego had taken over. there would have been violence, a lot of hurt, anger, family would have been involved...they would have experienced dukh.
But since that moment of forgiveness, that other person hasn't mouthed a bad word.
If i have to defend myself in the future, then i will, but in the meantime a little forgiveness is always good for everyone involved

4. Can forgiveness, once given, be retracted?
Only our EGO will want us to do this, and it will mean we havnt truely forgiven in the first place. It will mean you maybe wanted something in return of your forgiveness and if you didnt get it, you want to re-tract the forgiveness. This is where the other divine power 'selflessness' comes into play.

Relating this to the events of 1984 might be helpful, but is not necessary.
All i can say is that as many of us need to 'AWAKEN' and raise our consciousness to a higher level as instructed in gurbani, only then will we understand such events and why they took place, only then will we be able to see the 'bigger picture' then will we be able to move forward and move sikhi forward in the right manner for future generations and create heaven on earth.

Click to expand...

You See Ji, we come to an understanding that we 'create our own reality'
We are the masterminds of the situations and scenarios that we deal with on a day to day.

If on the inside we have tendencies to get angry very quickly...on the outside we will come across many situations to 'trigger' the 5 thieves inside of us. Can we control our 5 thieves. Can we replace anger with forgiveness, can we replace greed with contentment, can we replace jelousy with wishing everyone the best for their lives.

Until we do our inner cleansin of the 5 thieves and allow for the divine powers to come through then we will continue to suffer in our outwardly lives in one way or the other

nithaprath naavan raam sar keejai ||

Every day, take your bath in the Sacred Pool of the Lord.

majan karath pooran sabh kaam ||1||

Take your cleansing bath in it, and all your affairs shall be resolved. ||1||


SGGS JI 198

1984 was a sad time and truly wrong we can never FORGET but forgiving the Indian government can't be done at this time to this day they continue to mistreat Sikhs why forgive a country that still does the same things they did discreetly I cannot forgive the Indian government until India treats it's minorities justly and gives autonomy to minority states and gives money to the victims I don't see that happening so I don't think forgiveness is just to them at the moment

AkashdeepSingh said:

1984 was a sad time and truly wrong we can never FORGET but forgiving the Indian government can't be done at this time to this day they continue to mistreat Sikhs why forgive a country that still does the same things they did discreetly I cannot forgive the Indian government until India treats it's minorities justly and gives autonomy to minority states and gives money to the victims I don't see that happening so I don't think forgiveness is just to them at the moment

Click to expand...

I agree. However, unforgiveness is a heavy burden for the injured party to bear.