Bhagats Kabir Dohay

What is your opinion on Kabir Dohay - which is not a Sikh site ?

I can't find Kabir Dohay when I google it. What is the link?

But you know that there is a religious group -- world wide with ashrams and its own religious practices -- called the Kabir Paanth.

If you like I can post some links. I found out about this when researching Kabir for the Universal Mind discussion group on another network. And there is a lot of material that I can share for people with an interest in Kabir.

Yes, we will love to have some materail on Kabir ji..But in the form of his couplets/poems etc..not long write ups.

-kindly refer the site-

Thanks for the explanation of Dohay. This is another chapter in my learning. And I will post some links.

Your understanding that Kabiar's work must be understood through its metaphors is great.

aad0002 said:

Thanks for the explanation of Dohay. This is another chapter in my learning. And I will post some links.

Your understanding that Kabiar's work must be understood through its metaphors is great.

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Respected Aad ji,
It is again a compilation and presentation effort. There is no contribution from my side. Yes, it is only on account of HIndi I can make out the meaning of the Dohay. There is no involvement of Gurmukhi.

Sikh80 ji

Again an eye-opening comment by you. So the Hindi language becomes another tool to advance understanding. I think I will ask a family friend then to translate some things for me.

Thank you

Sikh80 said:

Chalti Chakki Dekh Kar, Diya Kabira Roye
Dui Paatan Ke Beech Mein,Sabit Bacha Na Koye
calatI ca@kI doKkr, idyaa kbaIra raoe
du[- paTna ko baIca maoM, saabaut bacaa na kaoe ​

TranslationLooking at the grinding stones, Kabir laments
In the duel of wheels, nothing stays intact.

Chalti Chakki Dekh Kar Diya Kabira Roye

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Let us take Bhagat Kabir's works outside Bani with a bit of caution:

Note:

Saint Bhagat Kabir Ji

In common with all monastic, ascetic or otherworldly sects, Kabir does not think well of women. Ihere is almost a tirade against them in the hymns of Kabir. Woman is characterised as "a black cobra', thc pit of hell and the refuse of the world." She is considered to be a hurdle in the path of thc spiritual progress of man. He spoke, "woman ruins everything when she comes near a man; Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul." His views, about woman are also evident from all his vehement attacks against maya. Almost everywhere he links maya to a woman who is out to entice and entrap man, and destroy his spiritual lifc. Such views about woman from a married person arc, indeed, quite uncommon. The cosmological views of Kabir give a clear clue to his worldview. He finds Niranjana to be the creator of the world; maya or woman. And this woman stands between man and god. She is there to entice him away from Him.

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Dear Randip ji,
SSA
Thanks for your warning Randip ji. I shall be careful in posting . I think almost in every religion one is asked to avoid sex to the extent possible for very obvious reasons. However, the expressing the same by Kabir ji would called to be extremely pungent. In sikhism also Guru sahib have stated at many places about indulgence in sex.

Excessive indulgance has to be avoided.In the matter of sex moderation is the answer, it is my view.

Meaning Of No.3

This doha is a little difficult to translate, particularly when the words "Pal mein Pralaya Hoyegi", have been translated by many scholars as the doomsday may come at any moment or in similar words. In my understanding Kabir, would not have meant this. He knew more than anyone else that if God is eternal, his creation is also eternal. Also being a Guru, Kabir would not like to talk about doomsday, as he himself was full of life.

Meaning Of No.4

Experiment yourself and rediscover the power of the spoken word.

Sikh80 said:

Dear Randip ji,
SSA
Thanks for your warning Randip ji. I shall be careful in posting . I think almost in every religion one is asked to avoid sex to the extent possible for very obvious reasons. However, the expressing the same by Kabir ji would called to be extremely pungent. In sikhism also Guru sahib have stated at many places about indulgence in sex.

Excessive indulgance has to be avoided.In the matter of sex moderation is the answer, it is my view.

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I think Kabir ji's views were somewhat of renounciation, that means no sexual relations. Guru Nanaks view was that one had to live the life of a householder which would mean nuptuals.
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ पउड़ी ॥
Pa*oṛī. Pauree: ਇਕਿ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਵਣ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ इकि कंद मूलु चुणि खाहि वण खंडि वासा ॥
Ik kanḏ mūl cẖuṇ kẖāhi vaṇ kẖand vāsā. Some pick and eat fruits and roots, and live in the wilderness. ਇਕਿ ਭਗਵਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸਾ ॥ इकि भगवा वेसु करि फिरहि जोगी संनिआसा ॥
Ik bẖagvā vės kar fireh jogī saniāsā. Some wander around wearing saffron robes, as Yogis and Sanyaasees. ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ॥ अंदरि त्रिसना बहुतु छादन भोजन की आसा ॥
Anḏar ṯarisnā bahuṯ cẖẖāḏan bẖojan kī āsā. But there is still so much desire within them-they still yearn for clothes and food. ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਨ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ बिरथा जनमु गवाइ न गिरही न उदासा ॥
Birthā janam gavā*ė na girhī na uḏāsā. They waste their lives uselessly; they are neither householders nor renunciates. ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਹੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ ॥ जमकालु सिरहु न उतरै त्रिबिधि मनसा ॥
Jamkāl sirahu na uṯrai ṯaribaḏẖ mansā. The Messenger of Death hangs over their heads, and they cannot escape the three-phased desire. ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ गुरमती कालु न आवै नेड़ै जा होवै दासनि दासा ॥
Gurmaṯī kāl na āvai nėṛai jā hovai ḏāsan ḏāsā. Death does not even approach those who follow the Guru's Teachings, and become the slaves of the Lord's slaves. ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ सचा सबदु सचु मनि घर ही माहि उदासा ॥
Sacẖā sabaḏ sacẖ man gẖar hī māhi uḏāsā. The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached. ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥ नानक सतिगुरु सेवनि आपणा से आसा ते निरासा ॥५॥
Nānak saṯgur sėvan āpṇā sė āsā ṯė nirāsā. ||5|| O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5||

So one lives in this world yet is not entiiced by the 5 thieves.

I think there is a difference between Kaam (OBSESSION with sex), and sexual act. Bani warns us about Kaam, wheras Kabir Panthis seemd to be wary of any sexual relations. Two definitely different views.

Page 121

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ माझ महला ३ ॥ Mājẖ mehlā 3. Maajh, Third Mehl: ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਊਜਲੁ ਊਜਲ ਹੰਸਾ ॥ गोविंदु ऊजलु ऊजल हंसा ॥ Govinḏ ūjal ūjal hansā. The Lord of the Universe is radiant, and radiant are His soul-swans. ਮਨੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਨਸਾ ॥ मनु बाणी निरमल मेरी मनसा ॥ Man baṇī nirmal mėrī mansā. Their minds and their speech are immaculate; they are my hope and ideal. ਮਨਿ ਊਜਲ ਸਦਾ ਮੁਖ ਸੋਹਹਿ ਅਤਿ ਊਜਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ मनि ऊजल सदा मुख सोहहि अति ऊजल नामु धिआवणिआ ॥१॥ Man ūjal saḏā mukẖ soheh aṯ ūjal nām ḏẖi*āvaṇi*ā. ||1|| Their minds are radiant, and their faces are always beautiful; they meditate on the most radiant Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1|| ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥ हउ वारी जीउ वारी गोबिंद गुण गावणिआ ॥ Ha*o vārī jī*o vārī gobinḏ guṇ gāvaṇi*ā. I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe. ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਕਹੈ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤੀ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਗੁਣ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ गोबिदु गोबिदु कहै दिन राती गोबिद गुण सबदि सुणावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Gobiḏ gobiḏ kahai ḏin rāṯī gobiḏ guṇ sabaḏ suṇāvṇi*ā. ||1|| rahā*o. So chant Gobind, Gobind, the Lord of the Universe, day and night; sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord Gobind, through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause|| ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ ॥ गोबिदु गावहि सहजि सुभाए ॥ Gobiḏ gāvahi sahj subẖā*ė. Sing of the Lord Gobind with intuitive ease, ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭੈ ਊਜਲ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਜਾਏ ॥ गुर कै भै ऊजल हउमै मलु जाए ॥ Gur kai bẖai ūjal ha*umai mal jā*ė. in the Fear of the Guru; you shall become radiant, and the filth of egotism shall depart. ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦਿ ਰਹਹਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥ सदा अनंदि रहहि भगति करहि दिनु राती सुणि गोबिद गुण गावणिआ ॥२॥ Saḏā anand raheh bẖagaṯ karahi ḏin rāṯī suṇ gobiḏ guṇ gāvaṇi*ā. ||2|| Remain in bliss forever, and perform devotional worship, day and night. Hear and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord Gobind. ||2|| ਮਨੂਆ ਨਾਚੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ॥ मनूआ नाचै भगति द्रिड़ाए ॥ Manū*ā nācẖai bẖagaṯ driṛ*ā*ė. Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship, ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ गुर कै सबदि मनै मनु मिलाए ॥ Gur kai sabaḏ manai man milā*ė. and through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind. ਸਚਾ ਤਾਲੁ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਏ ਸਬਦੇ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥ सचा तालु पूरे माइआ मोहु चुकाए सबदे निरति करावणिआ ॥३॥ Sacẖā ṯāl pūrė mā*i*ā moh cẖukā*ė sabḏė niraṯ karāvaṇi*ā. ||3|| Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. ||3|| ਊਚਾ ਕੂਕੇ ਤਨਹਿ ਪਛਾੜੇ ॥ ऊचा कूके तनहि पछाड़े ॥ Ūcẖā kūkė ṯaneh pacẖẖāṛė. People shout out loud and move their bodies, ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਜੋਹਿਆ ਜਮਕਾਲੇ ॥ माइआ मोहि जोहिआ जमकाले ॥ Mā*i*ā mohi johi*ā jamkālė. but if they are emotionally attached to Maya, then the Messenger of Death shall hunt them down. ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਇਸੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਨਚਾਏ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥ माइआ मोहु इसु मनहि नचाए अंतरि कपटु दुखु पावणिआ ॥४॥ Mā*i*ā moh is maneh nacẖā*ė anṯar kapat ḏukẖ pāvṇi*ā. ||4|| The love of Maya makes this mind dance, and the deceit within makes people suffer in pain. ||4|| ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ॥ गुरमुखि भगति जा आपि कराए ॥ Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ jā āp karā*ė. When the Lord inspires one to become Gurmukh, and perform devotional worship, ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ ॥ तनु मनु राता सहजि सुभाए ॥ Ŧan man rāṯā sahj subẖā*ė. then his body and mind are attuned to His Love with intuitive ease. ਬਾਣੀ ਵਜੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵਜਾਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ बाणी वजै सबदि वजाए गुरमुखि भगति थाइ पावणिआ ॥५॥ Baṇī vajai sabaḏ vajā*ė gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ thā*ė pāvṇi*ā. ||5|| The Word of His Bani vibrates, and the Word of His Shabad resounds, for the Gurmukh whose devotional worship is accepted. ||5|| ਬਹੁ ਤਾਲ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ बहु ताल पूरे वाजे वजाए ॥ Baho ṯāl pūrė vājė vajā*ė. One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments, ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੇ ਨ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥ ना को सुणे न मंनि वसाए ॥ Nā ko suṇė na man vasā*ė. but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind. ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਿੜ ਬੰਧਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥ माइआ कारणि पिड़ बंधि नाचै दूजै भाइ दुखु पावणिआ ॥६॥ Mā*i*ā kāraṇ piṛ banḏẖ nācẖai ḏūjai bẖā*ė ḏukẖ pāvṇi*ā. ||6|| For the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. ||6|| ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੈ ਸੋ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥ जिसु अंतरि प्रीति लगै सो मुकता ॥ Jis anṯar parīṯ lagai so mukṯā. Those whose inner beings are attached to the Lord's Love are liberated. ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਸਚ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥ इंद्री वसि सच संजमि जुगता ॥ Inḏrī vas sacẖ sanjam jugṯā. They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth. ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥ गुर कै सबदि सदा हरि धिआए एहा भगति हरि भावणिआ ॥७॥ Gur kai sabaḏ saḏā har ḏẖi*ā*ė ėhā bẖagaṯ har bẖāvṇi*ā. ||7|| Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, they meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord. ||7|| ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਹੋਈ ॥ गुरमुखि भगति जुग चारे होई ॥ Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ jug cẖārė ho*ī. To live as Gurmukh is devotional worship, throughout the four ages. ਹੋਰਤੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਕੋਈ ॥ होरतु भगति न पाए कोई ॥ Horaṯ bẖagaṯ na pā*ė ko*ī. This devotional worship is not obtained by any other means. ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੨੦॥੨੧॥ नानक नामु गुर भगती पाईऐ गुर चरणी चितु लावणिआ ॥८॥२०॥२१॥ Nānak nām gur bẖagṯī pā*ī*ai gur cẖarṇī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi*ā. ||8||20||21|| O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is obtained only through devotion to the Guru. So focus your consciousness on the Guru's Feet. ||8||20||21||

Here's a link that gives an account on the life of Kabir.
Saint Bhagat Kabir Ji

Randip ji

You are fundamentally correct about the statement that Kabir's thought was about renunciation. Most of what we know about Kabir comes from legend, with almost no historical evidence or record. He was himself probably, I emphasize probably, illiterate. And his poetry was first preserved in the oral tradition, and then written down.

There is some evidence, not complete, that early Sikh scholars may have been the first to preserve the work of Kabir in written form at the time that the Adi Granth was being itself compiled. There is also evidence that in the process of recording some of the poetry of Kabir for the Adi Graath early Sikh scholars changed some verses, and substituted Punjabi words for the original. What we read of Kabir in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is very likely to be an adaptation of the original oral record. This suggests to me that the early Sikh scholars were very aware that the poetry and ideas of Kabir were not in complete alignment with the ideas of Nanaak and the Gurus who followed him up to Guru Arjan Dev ji.

You make an excellent point about the differences between Kabir and Sikhi.

Kabir may have been married and may have raised a family. Again we don't know with complete confidence. We only have his poetry.

The Kabir Panth - the group I mentioned earlier - has a simple liturgy that focuses on merging with the Oneness of God. This is the point of the poetry of Kabir himself. He writes about the distortions, illusions and temptations of Maya as distraction from an eternal Truth. I am going to look further into this to see if the Kabir Panth practices celibacy and other forms of renunciation.

aad0002 said:

This suggests to me that the early Sikh scholars were very aware that the poetry and ideas of Kabir were not in complete alignment with the ideas of Nanaak and the Gurus who followed him up to Guru Arjan Dev ji.

.

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Precisely.

Our Guru's thinking was very much years ahead of its time. Bhagat Kabirs thinking about women was very much in line with what socities view was at the time. So Bhagat Kabir on this issue was only reflecting what most religious schools of thought thought.

What is refreshing about Guru Nanak is he swept these idea:

Page 473

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mehlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ ॥
भंडि जमीऐ भंडि निमीऐ भंडि मंगणु वीआहु ॥
Bẖand jammī*ai bẖand nimmī*ai bẖand mangaṇ vī*āhu.
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
भंडहु होवै दोसती भंडहु चलै राहु ॥
Bẖandahu hovai ḏosṯī bẖandahu cẖalai rāhu.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ ॥
भंडु मुआ भंडु भालीऐ भंडि होवै बंधानु ॥
Bẖand mu*ā bẖand bẖālī*ai bẖand hovai banḏẖān.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥
सो किउ मंदा आखीऐ जितु जमहि राजान ॥
So ki*o manḏā ākẖī*ai jiṯ jameh rājān.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੀ ਭੰਡੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
भंडहु ही भंडु ऊपजै भंडै बाझु न कोइ ॥
Bẖandahu hī bẖand ūpjai bẖandai bājẖ na ko*ė.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
नानक भंडै बाहरा एको सचा सोइ ॥
Nānak bẖandai bāhrā ėko sacẖā so*ė.
O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਭਾਗਾ ਰਤੀ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
जितु मुखि सदा सालाहीऐ भागा रती चारि ॥
Jiṯ mukẖ saḏā salāhī*ai bẖāgā raṯī cẖār.
That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
नानक ते मुख ऊजले तितु सचै दरबारि ॥२॥
Nānak ṯė mukẖ ūjlė ṯiṯ sacẖai ḏarbār. ||2||
O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

Randip ji

Sikhi is still ahead of its time. Yet there were those who heard Guru Nanaak then and understood. And there are those today who hear and understand. That is why I am here. His message about women, and everything else too. Guru Nanaak was a genius.

Thank you