Charitropakhyan Charitropakhyan And I

Charitropakhyan and I
A writer Sanjam Kaur

I want every one to read her Story line and reply her back how she can define womens role in Charitropakhyan

Few or her words I will share
am a woman with two teenage daughters and I have recently finished reading the English translation of Charitropakhyan. The whole text of Charitropakhyan deals with different aspects or shades of a woman's nature, some good some bad.

If you all listen or read Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji, you will understand that we are asked to reach the turiya state where we become the knower or the observer in us. This observer in all of us who is gone through infinite experiences in infinite lifetimes and is here now in this human body and has the great gift of being a Sikh and know Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Supreme Guru, the King of this kalyug, that observer can greatly appreciate the lessons Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to teach to his beloved Khalsa in Charitropakhyan.
Let us think about a Sikh Sirdar, our Guru Sahib’s beautiful incredible creation called Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa and put him where? Did the great Guru create a perfectly pure place, sterile from all vices for his Khalsa to live in? No. Guru Ji ordered his Khalsa to live here amongst everyone else, to marry, to have family, to earn an honest living. You all know that to live in a grihasta jeevan one has to constantly interact with a woman in different forms - his mother, his wife, his daughter. All you women also know that not much harm can be done to a good man by his mother or daughter, but it is the stage of youth and the problems and the enjoyments that come with it, which can either raise a man or drown him into kaamic mud.
Read the whole Artical
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or
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Reply her back please
Gurfateh

Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

I will divide this post under different sections:

1. Please stop forcing this material with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sacred name. There is no evidence available which would justify such association. In 1973, even SGPC and Akal Takhat Sahib Jethedar had announced that these stories are not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This kind of association hurts our feelings, and we consider it sinful.

2. As for this granth being written for Khalsa, once again, please stop stretching your imagination without any hard facts. Please read the following article which will clarify that this granth has nothing to do with the Khalsa:

website:
Dasam Granth Exposed

article:
Dasam Granth, is it really a Granth for the Khalsa?


3. When people complain that the explicit material in these stories is actually giving encouragement to the sexual feelings instead of teaching any moral lesson, then the Dasam Granthis say that only the people who are not saintly, are not above the lustful behaviour, only they get such message from these stories. But the people who are above kaam, all this does not disturb them.

This is one very strange explaination! Let me explain it using the following example:

Let us say a doctor develops a medication X for disease Y. This medication works such that if a person who has the disease Y, takes the medication X, the disease becomes worse. On the other hand, if the person who does not have the disease Y, takes X, that person has no impact. If someone takes this medication and complains that it has made my condition worse, then doctor says, well it is because you already had the disease! That is all your fault, you are not suppose to be taking this medication if you already have the disease!

In brief, people who need the medication, they can NOT take it. The ones who do not need it, they are suppose to take it. This can make sense to only the Dasam Granthis, it is way over my head!

Dasam Granthis like to claim that they are above kaam, and are saintly, that is why it all does not even bother them. But if they are all so pure, then they don't even need to read all this as they already have perfected their control over kaam. What are they trying to gain from these stories in such purity?

At least we recognize that we have a problem, and with the theory "garbage in garbage out", we like to control what gets fed into our minds, and we like to avoid reading such material.

4. When the Dasam Granthis stretch their imagination beyond any reasonable limits and make a normal person's head spin, it reminds me of a story my father told us. This shows, when people start believing something without solid evidence to begin with, then how desparately they will continue to justify their irrational behaviour so their own belief system won't break. They don't want to reevaluate their own stand, and question perhaps they were wrong. But to continue with their wrongs, they keep burying their heads in sand further and further.

This story took place in my village, before I was even born. My dad dislikes the so called saints, so he tells us many stories of their deceitful behaviour, and this is one of those stories.

One saint, 50-60 years old looking man came into our village. He had gained popularity for being a saint in the area. My dad also went to see him just for the fun of it. But when my dad saw the old saint always approaching young girls and touching and hugging them, he was offended and left the place. But the villagers fell in love with him, and organized many events under his supervision. He got close to one family, helped them quite a bit in many ways. Then finally, he suggested to them, that they marry their 17-18 years young girl to him. They agreed. My dad was in shock. But the whole village was so convinced of his purity, that they started singing his praises that the saint is so very great, that to cause his own criticism (nindya), the old man is only pretending to be marrying the young girl.


******
My dad said, the old man was doing lava(n) with the young girl, right in front of everyone, but the whole village and the girl's family was singing his praises that to cause his own nindya how far he is going, how very great saint he is!
******
　

My dad felt like beating up the saint, but no one would believe him. However, the saint took the girl with him, and off course he wanted to treat her as his wife. The girl was shocked at this, and ran to her own home the next day. She explained to everyone that the old saint really wanted her to be his wife. Then the villagers finally realized the truth, but by then the saint had fled.

But one can see, how far people would go to disbelieve something they cannot accept. Whenever I read hilarous explainations by the dasam granthis regarding these stories, it always reminds me of these villagers.

Please please, in God's name, simply open your eyes, and see exactly what is in front of your eyes. Remove the brain washing goggles.

Thank you,
Rani Kaur

With the Administrators' in indulgence, I can do no better than to quote Mrs. A Singh's article refuting this drivel which has already appeared elsewhere in this forum:

Rejoinder by Mrs. A. Singh to the article "Charitropakhyan and I"

Only a few weeks ago this article, Charitropakhyan and I, by Sanjam Kaur, was published at Sikhnet. The opening paragraphs read as follows:

"I am a woman with two teenage daughters and I have recently finished reading the English translation of Charitropakhyan. The whole text of Charitropakhyan deals with different aspects or shades of a woman's nature, some good some bad.


'The claims by some that these are useless sensual tales arise from incomplete reading of Charitropankhyan with a fickle mind already polluted by the kaamic mud which is all around us. Charitropakhyan should be read in its totality. If one finds them to be sensual tales, it is because all around us there is nothing but kaamic play of the dark-age, [FONT=wp_bogus_font]kalyug[/FONT], which has increased millions times more since the time of rachna of Sri Dasam Granth.

'Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us to do bhakti and have gyan too. Bhakti is like a boat which will carry us across this terrifying ocean of fire, and gyan will teach us how to swim across this dark ocean. [FONT=wp_bogus_font]Charitropankhyan[/FONT] read with a discerning mind will give us gyan so that we can build a strong fort of [FONT=wp_bogus_font]viveka [/FONT]to overcome one of the five vikaras called kam"
.... or lust.

More at this url: Charitropakhyan and I | SikhNet

​

Some readers were encouraged by the author's description of the merits of the Charitropakhyan. But others were disturbed by many key ideas presented in the article. They found them to be offensive to women and at odds with the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Mrs. A. Singh, who took a critical view of Charitropakhyan and I, had this to say.

On 7 May 2010 asingh wrote:

"This vindicates all those mullahs trying to change living women into walking shrouds, out of fear of those womanly viles. Even they did not invoke kok-shastra or incorporate manuite hatred for ladies to incorporate into a hundreds of pages of lesson-giving granth. After this granth do we have a case against female infanticide, a blight that has plagued that subcontinent for centuries?

'It is good thing it has been acknowledged that Sikh men first need to get married before they stop ogling women...to focus on the one mom procured, a nice little lady but inherently evil-natured of course! instead it being a treatise aimed at those hapless victims who have bitten the bullet, and are in need of graphic descriptions of perverse behaviours so as to explain why they should stick to the one evil temptress they already have, then go get trapped by others out there!


'Can anyone point out the 'good' characteristics of women in there - they seem too busy proving their evil nature to find time to be good. Even 'raja' of Anandpur has not been spared or could not escape the trap laid out by one such heroine,,,of course choosing to go there at odd hours unchaperoned, to get some secret stuff (and become the reason for excommunication of an ex-jathedar of Akal Takht for reading from this mahan granth to his Sikh audience!). Even the supposedly 'good' devi Chandi is busy spilling blood and laughing loudly at blood and gore. Not to mention the good gopikas cavorting with kahna, gaining celestial favours, leaving hubbies whining and complaining.



'In short Sikh men should stay home and guard their evil temptresses, for given half a chance they will find a raja hiding under their beds, drinking bhang out of their fine China and planning future dastardly acts.

'When can we look forward to the sequel...about purusha-charitras i.e. men gone wild after lessons form Charitropakhyan? Now that dodas and bhukki are houshold items it is time to whip out our granth!"

​

We thank Mrs. A. Singh for allowing Sikh Philosophy Network to publish her comments; they were originally communicated as an email message to SikhDiaspora which is a private mail-group at Yahoo.com.
..

Click to expand...

Mai Harinder Kaur said:

With the Administrators' in indulgence, I can do no better than to quote Mrs. A Singh's article refuting this drivel which has already appeared elsewhere in this forum:

Click to expand...

I agreed with you 101%
Binder Mandur

rani_vancouver said:

Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

I will divide this post under different sections:

1. Please stop forcing this material with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sacred name. There is no evidence available which would justify such association. In 1973, even SGPC and Akal Takhat Sahib Jethedar had announced that these stories are not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This kind of association hurts our feelings, and we consider it sinful.

2. As for this granth being written for Khalsa, once again, please stop stretching your imagination without any hard facts. Please read the following article which will clarify that this granth has nothing to do with the Khalsa:

website:
Dasam Granth Exposed

article:
Dasam Granth, is it really a Granth for the Khalsa?


3. When people complain that the explicit material in these stories is actually giving encouragement to the sexual feelings instead of teaching any moral lesson, then the Dasam Granthis say that only the people who are not saintly, are not above the lustful behaviour, only they get such message from these stories. But the people who are above kaam, all this does not disturb them.

This is one very strange explaination! Let me explain it using the following example:

Let us say a doctor develops a medication X for disease Y. This medication works such that if a person who has the disease Y, takes the medication X, the disease becomes worse. On the other hand, if the person who does not have the disease Y, takes X, that person has no impact. If someone takes this medication and complains that it has made my condition worse, then doctor says, well it is because you already had the disease! That is all your fault, you are not suppose to be taking this medication if you already have the disease!

In brief, people who need the medication, they can NOT take it. The ones who do not need it, they are suppose to take it. This can make sense to only the Dasam Granthis, it is way over my head!

Dasam Granthis like to claim that they are above kaam, and are saintly, that is why it all does not even bother them. But if they are all so pure, then they don't even need to read all this as they already have perfected their control over kaam. What are they trying to gain from these stories in such purity?

At least we recognize that we have a problem, and with the theory "garbage in garbage out", we like to control what gets fed into our minds, and we like to avoid reading such material.

4. When the Dasam Granthis stretch their imagination beyond any reasonable limits and make a normal person's head spin, it reminds me of a story my father told us. This shows, when people start believing something without solid evidence to begin with, then how desparately they will continue to justify their irrational behaviour so their own belief system won't break. They don't want to reevaluate their own stand, and question perhaps they were wrong. But to continue with their wrongs, they keep burying their heads in sand further and further.

This story took place in my village, before I was even born. My dad dislikes the so called saints, so he tells us many stories of their deceitful behaviour, and this is one of those stories.

One saint, 50-60 years old looking man came into our village. He had gained popularity for being a saint in the area. My dad also went to see him just for the fun of it. But when my dad saw the old saint always approaching young girls and touching and hugging them, he was offended and left the place. But the villagers fell in love with him, and organized many events under his supervision. He got close to one family, helped them quite a bit in many ways. Then finally, he suggested to them, that they marry their 17-18 years young girl to him. They agreed. My dad was in shock. But the whole village was so convinced of his purity, that they started singing his praises that the saint is so very great, that to cause his own criticism (nindya), the old man is only pretending to be marrying the young girl.


******
My dad said, the old man was doing lava(n) with the young girl, right in front of everyone, but the whole village and the girl's family was singing his praises that to cause his own nindya how far he is going, how very great saint he is!
******
　

My dad felt like beating up the saint, but no one would believe him. However, the saint took the girl with him, and off course he wanted to treat her as his wife. The girl was shocked at this, and ran to her own home the next day. She explained to everyone that the old saint really wanted her to be his wife. Then the villagers finally realized the truth, but by then the saint had fled.

But one can see, how far people would go to disbelieve something they cannot accept. Whenever I read hilarous explainations by the dasam granthis regarding these stories, it always reminds me of these villagers.

Please please, in God's name, simply open your eyes, and see exactly what is in front of your eyes. Remove the brain washing goggles.

Thank you,
Rani Kaur

Click to expand...

Gurfateh Rani Kaur ji

yes you said it right. When we read some thing like Sanjam Kaur we felt we have to show every one and reply back with good explanation so we all womens can understand. Our Guru Gobind Singh Ji will never wirte that for any Woman at all

I seriously wonder if such a Sanjam Kaur does exist at all ?? Its all a figment of the fertile imagination of some fiction writer.
Remember the DG controversy ahs been raging like a wild fire for a DECADE..and the Anti-DG's have been repeatedly asking WHY isnt the charitars read in PUBLIC..in front of women...daughters..wives..mothers..as is SGGS ..and VIOLA..out comes Sanjam kaur (Sanjam means sehaj..restrained...calm..purposeful...) to defend this composition..and promote it for her teenage daughters as well... so things are not what they seem to be...its a Don Quixote Lady !!

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

I seriously wonder if such a Sanjam Kaur does exist at all ?? Its all a figment of the fertile imagination of some fiction writer.
Remember the DG controversy ahs been raging like a wild fire for a DECADE..and the Anti-DG's have been repeatedly asking WHY isnt the charitars read in PUBLIC..in front of women...daughters..wives..mothers..as is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ..and VIOLA..out comes Sanjam kaur (Sanjam means sehaj..restrained...calm..purposeful...) to defend this composition..and promote it for her teenage daughters as well... so things are not what they seem to be...its a Don Quixote Lady !!

Click to expand...

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji

I am totaly agreed with you on that I think there is no Sanjam Kaur just a name to talk about Womens. wap what a explanation you have given for Sanjam kaur

Gurfateh ji

Dear virji

I am Sanjam Kaur ,and I do exist .On my little write-up I expressed my humble opinion.We all are sikhs and no matter how different we all look at a certain issue ,we all still Guru Nanak,s sikhs (students for spiritual knowledge).On Sikhnet ,Ms. Simarjeet Kaur had following to say about the article ,and i am posting my reply here ,which i think may explain the point I am and was trying to make.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji KIi Fateh

Deleted full statement by a Sikhnet discussant. Narayanjot Kaur

Remarks by Simarjeet Kaur

"Interesting read. Wao, you did exactly what Holy SGGSji proscribes in Aasa di Waar; branding the women as bad. If what you wrote about Charitropakhyan is true then how is it different from Samritis and upnishads that sing oodles and oodles of trash about the viels of feminine gender? What kind of spiritualism is it that believes in the branding of a whole gender as eveil even if it is few bad apples there? Yeh, the Triya Chritra you have mentioned is already vilified in the Samritis, purans and upnishads. That sing praises of the rapist: Indera, the king of Demi Gods. Brahma who had sexual desires for his daughter and the brother sister Yam and yami troubled by incest and least to say of Shiva who lost his mind to Kama and then was so outraged that he could not contain his anger. Wao, if the Gods and demi Gods were to behave like this forget about the humans. So it was always the woman’s fault not these male figures" Read more at this link http://www.sikhnet.com/news/charitropakhyan-and-i

To this following is my reply

Dear Ms Simarjeet Kaur Ji

The statement you mentioned is different from the Manusmriti in the basic fact that in manusmriti it is not mentioned "a woman of bad character". Manusmriti degrades all women just as they are some how low in birth because they are women.In Chritropakhyan women who are talked about are of low moral standards.

Charitropakhyan does not contain only stories pertaining to women, but there are many stories of men, who were saints, kings, and courtiers. I have not ever implied that women are evil .Not only I ,a woman, but no sikh man thinks that women are evil,because we are Sikhs .our guru taught usto love not to hate,how can anyone hate a woman. No man thinks women are evil just as no woman thinks that men are evil.S o come on guys do not bring that manusmriti stuff in .I did not mean that woman is evil but what I am saying in my little write up is that donot you guys all agree that women can be as evil as described in Chritropakhyan ,s all the chritras?It is the evil ways a woman can behave just as a man can be very evil .This is not saying that women are evil.

If you read chritropakhyan from beginning to end ,and not some portions of it you will not be offended .When you read parts of it ,not only you will miss the purpose intended but you may understand it the wrong way ,just as you are implying that I am trying to insult all women .If you read once again my little write up you will see that all I am trying to say is that in all societies modern and old ,women have their own share of blame to take for the ills of the society.But then again this is what I am saying ,Our Great Guru Gobind Singh ji does not blame any one..Charitropakhyan is not an insult to women ,it just is not The only way for you to find this out is to read it in totality with a calm mind .But even if your mind is not calm and you start to read chritropakhyan and you feel ,”what is this .all these ashleel words and talk about lust “ do not stop reading it .Just read the chritra till the end .believe me you will not feel offended Then read another one and then the rest ,even if your mind is getting agitated with anger just read it .We owe it to ourselves.I am sure that in the end you will understand that our supreme patshah Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to help us with one of the basic emotioms pervading our bodies --the kaam. We are Sikhs. We are students of truth A student who treads the path of Truth must, also equip himself with - Viveka


Believe me if you read chritropakhyan you will understand that Mahakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to increase his sikh,s viveka and that means women and men both .Chritropakhyan is just a different but very important kind of knowledge our Guruji is trying to convey. Like I said before, only if you read Chritropakhyan you will see that all the scenerios described in there Do and Can Happen, maybe not in our lives but we certainly have read them in different places .We as women, can not say that no woman can ever act in evil and clever ways described in the Chritripakhyan. Now please try to understand, -- it is the EVIL WAYS a woman can act it DOES NOT MEAN that the woman is evil.If a woman act seductively ,like it is described in many chritras she is acting in evil ways .It is got nothing to do with manu or any other simriti .We are sikhs and our Shri GURU Nanak Dev Ji has forgiven even prostitutes and we sikhs do not hate anyone ,even those prostitutes.They are as our Guru Ji teaches us ,,are just misguided and that is why act in evil ways .But we are not dumb The humility of a sikh sharpens his intellect ,and gives him another tool on the spiritual climb called viveka.What our Guru Ji has done in Chritropakhyan, is, increased his sikhs viveka,about a topic which, if not understood well, can cause him ,Guru,s Khalsa to fall in a kaamic pit .

Have you read or listened to Chandi Di Vaar another of our Guru Ji,s great gift to us. If you read Chandi Di Vaar Sahib ,you may ask “why does Guru Ji wants me to know about the war between devas and rakshsas .But if you listen to it completely and understand it (you can read the translation while listening ) you are going to feel calm and fearless in the end .It is as if you were sitting on the shore waiting for the waves to calm down ,but after listening to Chandi Dee Vaar Sahib , you just say, “ Waheguruji ka khalsa , Waheguru ji kiFfateh and you jump and are ready to surf those waves .You will stop coasting in fear and be a fearless surfer in life,s ocean.

In the same way, reading chritropakhyan in totality will help you swim through this ocean of kaamic fire .Shri Dashmesh Pita Ji loves us all equally .You ,me and everyone else sikh ,non sikh good ,bad . Guru Ji loves everyone ,all his sikhs whom he is trying to protect from a freefall into the kaamic hell and all those women who are described of shady characters in different chritras of the chritropakhyan, Guru Ji does not hate them .They are exibiting evil qualities in the stories and do we all women not know that women are capable of stooping that low .Just as can a man say that a man can not commit heinious crimes like rape etc. Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, tells us to achieve the state of vairagya when we will fully understand the one and the only purpose of this human birth, which is to get rid of the cycle of life and death .Once again I would humbly say that reading chritropakhyan with a calm and kaam- free mind will bring some vairaga to the reader for one will understand the futility of all this wonderful web built by kaam.You may ask why Chritropakhyan, why not reading only Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is enough to bring vairagya Iit is true .You do not even read, you just be a humble sikh.but if someone says that chritropakhyan is just useless sensual tales then my answer is, No they are not . They are one more of the so many other kind ways our Guru Ji is trying to pull us out of this kaamic mud of this kalyug.

Just as the true viveka leads to an enduring vairagya ,the knowledge gained from Chritropakhyan can make a sikh man or a woman understand about the futility of so many of this life,s mayayic(illusionary) entanglements, which either directly or indirectly spring up from kaam . Many a times you all may notice that knowledge is enveloped by ignorance and that is the reason we may be fooled.I think Chritropakhyan peels out some of that ignorance.
Once again no one can ever can say that women are evil just as no one can ever say that men are evil. we are all good, as one light pervades all .

Thanks
Sat Sri Akal
Sanjam Kaur

sab said:

Dear virji

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sab said:

I am Sanjam Kaur ,and I do exist .On my little write-up I expressed my humble opinion.

Sab Kaur or Sanjam Kaur what ever your name is

Sab means Sabar
Sanjam means you know.....
but the question is what you have written in your artical those are your views not My Guru Gobind Singh Ji

So please stop saying Guru Gobind SIngh ji warning a Khalsa from Devil women as discribe in chritropakhan

Bibi Ji Guru Gobind Singh ji Blessed Panj Piyare than Guru Ji took the AMRIT Khande di Pahul from them ( Panj Piyare)
Are you telling me according to your artical Guru ji also want to be carefull from Devil Women
Khalsa mero Roop hai Khaas, khalse main hu karo niwas than how Guru ji can say those words for Khalsa!!

I hope you will read it again and trying to understand your self

Thank you
My Guru is only one that is Guru Granth sahib ji

Guefateh

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Do we need to have Simarjeet Kaur's statement in full? If they are on the Sikhnet site we can post a link to them. Basically -- a conversation occurring on another web site was given a new home here at Sikh Philosophy Network. We don't as a rule see this happen, and we do not consider ourselves hosts to Sikhnet discussions or discussions on other sites either. Paraphrase is needed.

So I have provided a short sample from her comments, with the link to read more.

It is important that comments at SPN be relevant to the ongoing thread. Do not introduce at length debates, discussions, etc. occurring else where.We are here to talk to one another.

Sab ji

You can make all of your same points without reproducing the full text of Simarjeet ji's statement.

SSA
I can not understand how the followers of SGGS ji can even think of approving chariropakhian as tenth masters bani. This matter is a politisized one. Some anti-sikh groups are waging this war to divide the sikhs and defame our gurus. All the followers of Gurbani must understand that we are falling prey to the traps of anti-sikh elements. More than the charitropakhian the stories about who and how compiled DG, are much more defaming in nature.
Lot of sikhs has started raising their voice against this conspiracy by anti-sikh lobby.
Roop Sidhu

Sat Sri A kal

Sab is my user name ,sanjam kaur is my name.Guru Gobind Singh Ji wants us to stay away from "devil like plans of action" by men and women both .Once again we can agree to disagree ,I am sure Dashmesh Pita Ji does not mind if i say that Chritropakhyan is Guru Ji,s rachna ,and you say it is not.Surely you agree that the women you describe and the women with "wrong /evil plans "which i describe are different .Moreover it is women,s wrong plans ,not the woman herself and most certainly "not all women" or all men
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguruji ki Fateh

sab ji

Where is the idea of "devil" in Sikhi? This is not part of Sikhi but exactly what Guru Nanak tried to steer people from. Thinking that evil and goodness take the form of humans, devtas, supernatural spirits. The more one thinks in these terms, more likely one is to be enslaved by these products of one's own thinking.

Only 3 times is the word "devil" found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib - and always as saitthaan which is reference to the Muslim idea of devil. Guru Nanak says,

ਨਾਇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਨਾਤੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਨਾਵਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਜਾਣੀ ॥
naae nivaajaa naathai poojaa naavan sadhaa sujaanee ||
After bathing, the Muslims recite their prayers, and after bathing, the Hindus perform their worship services. The wise always take cleansing baths.

ਮੁਇਆ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਣੀ ॥
mueiaa jeevadhiaa gath hovai jaan sir paaeeai paanee ||
At the time of death, and at the time of birth, they are purified, when water is poured on their heads.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਏਨਾ ਗਲ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥
naanak sirakhuthhae saithaanee eaenaa gal n bhaanee ||
O Nanak, the shaven-headed ones aredevils. They are not pleased to hear these words.


The shaven-headed ones are devils. Humans in other words act are playing the part of devils. This is not admission that there is a devil. The shabad teaches us that it is humans who confuse rituals with purity, ceremony with dharma, and when they do that they create a lot of suffering. Corruption is a human invention. Why would Guru Gobind Singh have a different vichaar from Guru Nanak?

That is one and only one problem with "Dasam Granth" in its totality. The very ways of thinking that Guru Nanak tried to free us from suddenly crop up in manuscripts that were not even written in the lifetime of Nanak 10. Doesn't this sound odd to you?

Narayanjot Kaur ji quoted (The shaven-headed ones are devils)
I have also read this translation of bani at www.srigranth.org
can someone shed some more light on this?
Roopsidhu

Dear Narayanjot Kaur Ji

As you said yourself it is our thinking which is good or bad ,there is no physical devil.Same thing is said by me .I am saying that the women in some of the chritras of the chritropakhyan are planning an "evil plan of seduction ".Now the problem is that the man involved in those same chritras ,(a king or whoever ),is either a chaste man or even if not chaste ,is certainly not interested to be seduced ).Now don,t you think that it is evil on the part of the woman to act like that .Now no one is saying ,not only me or anyone who read the chritropakhyan,BUT NOT ALSO THE INCREDIBLE DASHMESH PITA JI ,that the woman is evil.By the way I do not remember using demon in my little wrte-up . I have ti admit that i have read Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,s translation twice all of it and I have read Shri Dsam Granth Ji once it,s english translation ,and I have not found that Shri Dasam Granth Ji,s writings are at odds to Shri Guru Granth Sahib JI.I think we really have to read Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Try to read the translation. A reader while commenting on the wrte-up said that i mentioned women as evil and that was like the wrtings of manusmiriti .I want to humbly let her know that what I mean is the woman,s "evil plan of seduction "of a uninterested man as described in chritras of chritropakhyan which is "evil" not the woman herself .

Deleted duplicate information, Narayanjot Kaur


Once again no one can ever can say that women are evil just as no one can ever say that men are evil. we are all good, as one light pervades all . I think Dashmesh Pita Ji loves you ,me and all women and men everywhere equally whether we agree with Chritropakhyan being his rachna or not .The women I described in my write-up “the one with an evil plan of seduction “ is not the women you mention. Once again it is the “evil plan of action “which is EVIL not the WOMAN,and it is these deceitful plans which are described in Chritropakhyan.Disaggrement is an integral part of the very pure and vital human qualities of love.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Sanjam kaur

sab ji

What is this "woman's evil plan of seduction" that keeps being emphasized? Do you know of any other "scriptures" other than Semitic-based scriptures that dwell on this "feature" so as to put men on notice that their virtue is in danger? This is a common belief among Christians, Jews and Muslims. I did not know that it was also a concern of Sikhs.

Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

Please view this video to see that ALL WOMEN are criticized in Dasam Granth, not just the "evil" ones. And these conclusions are drawn by Bhai Kahn Singh Ji Nabha, who was a well known scholar.

YouTube - Dasam Granth Bachitter Natak 5.flv

For other details of how this Dasam Granth is a part of a big plan by the Hindues and British to confuse and bring the Sikhs under the fold of Hinduism, please read the articles posted at the following website.

Dasam Granth Exposed

Yes, Guru Gobind Singh Ji would mind such material being associated with his name.

Thank you,
Randeep Kaur

roopsidhu said:

Narayanjot Kaur ji quoted (The shaven-headed ones are devils)
I have also read this translation of bani at www.srigranth.org
can someone shed some more light on this?
Roopsidhu

Click to expand...

Roopsidhu ji

This is what would be the word by word translation or equivalent of

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਏਨਾ ਗਲ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥
naanak sirakhuthhae saithaanee eaenaa gal n bhaanee ||
O Nanak, the shaven-headed ones aredevils. They are not pleased to hear these words.

naanak = Nanak
sir= head
khuthhae = shaved or shaven
saithaanaee = Satan
eaenaa = these, these people
gal = talk, as in conversation, or discussion
n = not, not of or apart from
bhanee = pleaseed

My reconstruction:

Nanak! The (ones) with shaved heads, they are the devils. These are people who are not pleased with this kind of talk. They don't want to hear that their rituals and self-denials are without merit. In other words,


ਜੀਆ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਖੈ ॥
jeeaa maar jeevaalae soee avar n koee rakhai ||
The Lord alone kills and restores to life; no one else can protect anyone from Him.



Guru Nanak is talking specifically about ascetics, but in concept about people who confuse ritual with dharam and purity. The preceding lines of the shabad give examples and say,

ਦਯਿ ਵਿਗੋਏ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਵਿਗੁਤੇ ਫਿਟਾ ਵਤੈ ਗਲਾ ॥
dhay vigoeae firehi viguthae fittaa vathai galaa ||
Ruined by the Merciful Lord, they wander around in disgrace, and their entire troop is contaminated.


ਜੀਆ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਖੈ ॥
jeeaa maar jeevaalae soee avar n koee rakhai ||
The Lord alone kills and restores to life; no one else can protect anyone from Him.

Complete shabad

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
salok ma 1 ||
Shalok, First Mehl:


ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇ ਪੀਅਹਿ ਮਲਵਾਣੀ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਖਾਹੀ ॥
sir khohaae peeahi malavaanee joothaa mang mang khaahee ||
They pluck the hair out of their heads, and drink in filthy water; they beg endlessly and eat the garbage which others have thrown away.


ਫੋਲਿ ਫਦੀਹਤਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਭੜਾਸਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਗਾਹੀ ॥
fol fadheehath muhi lain bharraasaa paanee dhaekh sagaahee ||
They spread manure, they suck in rotting smells, and they are afraid of clean water.


ਭੇਡਾ ਵਾਗੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇਨਿ ਭਰੀਅਨਿ ਹਥ ਸੁਆਹੀ ॥
bhaeddaa vaagee sir khohaaein bhareean hathh suaahee ||
Their hands are smeared with ashes, and the hair on their heads is plucked out-they are like sheep!


ਮਾਊ ਪੀਊ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਗਵਾਇਨਿ ਟਬਰ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਧਾਹੀ ॥
maaoo peeoo kirath gavaaein ttabar rovan dhhaahee ||
They have renounced the lifestyle of their mothers and fathers, and their families and relatives cry out in distress.


ਓਨਾ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਨ ਪਤਲਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਨ ਦੀਵਾ ਮੁਏ ਕਿਥਾਊ ਪਾਹੀ ॥
ounaa pindd n pathal kiriaa n dheevaa mueae kithhaaoo paahee ||
No one offers the rice dishes at their last rites, and no one lights the lamps for them. After their death, where will they be sent?


ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਨਿ ਨ ਢੋਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹੀ ॥
athasath theerathh dhaen n dtoee brehaman ann n khaahee ||
The sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage give them no place of protection, and no Brahmin will eat their food.


ਸਦਾ ਕੁਚੀਲ ਰਹਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
sadhaa kucheel rehehi dhin raathee mathhai ttikae naahee ||
They remain polluted forever, day and night; they do not apply the ceremonial tilak mark to their foreheads.


ਝੁੰਡੀ ਪਾਇ ਬਹਨਿ ਨਿਤਿ ਮਰਣੈ ਦੜਿ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
jhunddee paae behan nith maranai dharr dheebaan n jaahee ||
They sit together in silence, as if in mourning; they do not go to the Lord's Court.


ਲਕੀ ਕਾਸੇ ਹਥੀ ਫੁੰਮਣ ਅਗੋ ਪਿਛੀ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
lakee kaasae hathhee funman ago pishhee jaahee ||
With their begging bowls hanging from their waists, and their fly-brushes in their hands, they walk along in single file.


ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੰਗਮ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਕਾਜੀ ਮੁੰਲਾ ॥
naa oue jogee naa oue jangam naa oue kaajee munlaa ||
They are not Yogis, and they are not Jangams, followers of Shiva. They are not Qazis or Mullahs.
ਦਯਿ ਵਿਗੋਏ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਵਿਗੁਤੇ ਫਿਟਾ ਵਤੈ ਗਲਾ ॥
dhay vigoeae firehi viguthae fittaa vathai galaa ||
Ruined by the Merciful Lord, they wander around in disgrace, and their entire troop is contaminated.


ਜੀਆ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਖੈ ॥
jeeaa maar jeevaalae soee avar n koee rakhai ||
The Lord alone kills and restores to life; no one else can protect anyone from Him.


ਦਾਨਹੁ ਤੈ ਇਸਨਾਨਹੁ ਵੰਜੇ ਭਸੁ ਪਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਖੁਥੈ ॥
dhaanahu thai eisanaanahu vanjae bhas pee sir khuthhai ||
They go without giving alms or any cleansing baths; their shaven heads become covered with dust.


ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਰਤਨ ਉਪੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਮਾਧਾਣੀ ॥
paanee vichahu rathan oupannae maer keeaa maadhhaanee ||
The jewel emerged from the water, when the mountain of gold was used to churn it.


ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਥਾਪੇ ਪੁਰਬੀ ਲਗੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
athasath theerathh dhaevee thhaapae purabee lagai baanee ||
The gods established the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, where the festivals are celebrated and hymns are chanted.


ਨਾਇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਨਾਤੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਨਾਵਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਜਾਣੀ ॥
naae nivaajaa naathai poojaa naavan sadhaa sujaanee ||
After bathing, the Muslims recite their prayers, and after bathing, the Hindus perform their worship services. The wise always take cleansing baths.


ਮੁਇਆ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਣੀ ॥
mueiaa jeevadhiaa gath hovai jaan sir paaeeai paanee ||
At the time of death, and at the time of birth, they are purified, when water is poured on their heads.


ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਏਨਾ ਗਲ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥
naanak sirakhuthhae saithaanee eaenaa gal n bhaanee ||
O Nanak, the shaven-headed ones are devils. They are not pleased to hear these words.

SSA,
can any one tell that the word "khuthe" is from which language and where its mentioned that khuthe means shaven?. in Mahan kosh, kahan singh nabha ji writes khuthe = khuse = lost = messed up.I do not think that its fare to say that all shaven-head people are devils.
roopsidhu