Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul

This post was moved from the thread Charittropakhayan because it was off topic. A new thread has been started.


I am no expert on Dasam Granth but all of those who say this is conspiracy against sikhism to finish sikhs I think on contrary Sikhs (I am again confused who is Gursikh Here who is for DG or Who is against DG) are conspiring against themselves...Three Banis that are recited during khande bate di pahul are from DG. And Khande Bate di pahul was served for initiation into Khalsa since Guru Gobind Singh Ji and it was not only on the day of the 1699 Visakhi the sikhs were initiated to be Khalsa. After that day lots of other sikhs became Khalsa and all these Banis must be recited again and again.
If we are Against DG we are against Khande Bate di Pahul and hence Khalsa and Sikhism. Now its becoming fairly confusing who is real Sikh.
Further I liked the arguments made in Favour of DG by Dr Jodh Singh who did translation of DG in Hindi and English. If a sikh has to get clarification on those stories that are referred in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about all the demi gods and Avatars.... where would sikh go back to the same Brahman from whom Guruji wanted us differ with. Thats why he wrote all the those most famous stories in the way a sikh must understand...
Moreover during whole sikh History none of the reputable sikh made an objection to the DG. The most reputable scholars Like Sahib singh ji, Kahn singh Nabha ji, Giani Gurdit singh ji None of them ever objected to the DG and DG is been in existence since 1700s.
If we as Sikhs reject Banis in DG then we are basically rejecting Khande Bate di Pahul and Khalsa. That will definitely be end of Khalsa and sikhism.

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa waheguru Ji Fateh
Sevadar

Re: Dasam Granth and the 'Bani" Recited in Khande di Pahul

Sorry to say Sevadar jee,

First of all , our checking methods of any concept are based on teachings of SGGS jee only, which is a universal truth and has been given the place of our everlasting Guru by none other than the 10th master himself.

If you put the Banis in the DG on check, on the basis of teachings of SGGS jee, the whole of DG is not being rejected but a large portion of the delbrateley added mythological or so called stories from Hindu mythology are being rejected only. Never these three Banis of Amrit sanchar were under any doubt.

Re: Dasam Granth and the 'Bani" Recited in Khande di Pahul

Hardip Singh ji

I agree with you.

The question of the authentic banees recited at the first khande di pahul (and the original Nit Nem) have been turned into a "straw man," with the purpose of fomenting a useless controversy, in order to set the straw man on fire.

There have been discussions in the last year or so regarding which banees were recited as the original "nit nem" by our Gurus. For a longer time there has also been discussion of the banees recited at the first initiation of Khalsa in 1699. The historical record suggests only 3 banees may have been the original Nit Nem: Japji Sahib, Sohila, and part of Rehras. But that is only a historical hypothesis. And all hypotheses are tentative, and not meant to be taken as conclusions on the part of historians.

The Sikh Rehat Maryada has not been repealed. Nor have the scholarly efforts and historical investigations of its framers been denied. However, in order to fan the flames of controversy within the panth, some make the claim that this or that Sikh scholar, or this or that academic, are questioning the Nit Nem, or the Khande di pahul, and undermining Sri Guru Granth Sahib by doing this.

Anyone who falls for this game, and does not see how their emotions are being manipulated for political purposes, will come to the conclusion that Guru Granth is being undermined. But that is the game plan. And it is tragic that these discussions cannot take place without drama.

Re: Dasam Granth and the 'Bani" Recited in Khande di Pahul

Just thinking out loud here...

It seems to make sense to me that a Sikh's nitnem banis would be the first banis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. These are Japji, part of Rehras and Sohila.

It seems to make sense to me that khalsa Sikhs would adopt additional banis from Dasam Granth as these banis seem to be much more aggressive than the banis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, which I guess puts the 'soldier' in the 'soldier-saint'.

Ishna

Very solid point Ishnaji.

I have been looking into the granth quite a bit lately and I do find that it is of importance, however I understand why all the rejection as well.

I think it is more of an issue of interpretations and this is the root of most problems.
The granth does contain the shabad and words of the Dasam Pita and therefore we shouldn't disrespect it out of ignorance.
Yes, there are the mentions of many hindu mythoogical figures and stories,, but I can't find anywhere where the guru appears to be guiding their worship or likewise.
- This is misinterpreted nonsense.

The shakti and physical power needed to fight in battle is from 'Akal purakh' only.
I see the granth as more of an active inspiration for the Khalsa, whereas the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the core and much more spiritual.

If someone put Japji Sahib in the Bible would we start calling it Guru too?

Some of the bani in Dasam Granth MIGHT be by Guru Gobind Singh Ji but the bulk of it most certainly ISN'T and I find it disrespectful that some clown long ago (be clear I am NOT talking about Guru Gobind Singh Ji) shoved the bani of Guru Sahib in with a bunch of porno-mythical crapola.

The bible may not be my guru, but it has every right to be someone elses guru and I have to respect that.

I agree with you that it has been tampered with, but that doesn't mean we should see the words of the dasam pita in a different light, especially when the references are to akal purakh.
The fact is that it contains banis that are part of the rehat and therefore it has an important foundation in defining the sikh and khalsa.

We all have the right and freedom to study it and apply it in line with the core of Adi Granth sahib.
If you don't like certain parts or you find them not appropriate, then don't take them in !!

When I listen to katha from any sant or bhai sahib ji, I only take in and from them what I find appropriate and inspiring in line with the core of Adi Granth.
If the bhai sahib starts talking off track and being critical of others whilst praising himself...etc..., then I simply ignore that part.
I only take out the good and don't judge him for his bad or negativities.

That is how we should try and be all the time with all around us, I do try but I must try harder and keep at it.

Thank you Luckyji, your post is very good.

The problem is, if Japji Sahib were in the Bible, or the latest Mad Magazine, there seems to be a tendency in some people to say "Guru Nanak wrote it all" and believe every worth thus.

People can't read just the banis generally recognised as Dasam Pita's and be content with that, they keep reading the junk and then start believing it. Hey, if that's what they want to believe they have every right to it.

If someone would just take what most would agree is Guruji's bani OUT of the DG and into it's own special binding there would be much, much less of a problem.

If someone would just take what most would agree is Guruji's bani OUT of the DG and into it's own special binding there would be much, much less of a problem.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Click to expand...

I know it sounds pretty easy to do, but there are too many political reasons to just leave it hanging as it is and let us keep on debating.

I suppose once you get into it and into more of a 'swing', then I suppose you can confidently decide for yourself what is real and what is not.
A little like when I watch pop artists performing live on TV and my kids will ask if they are singing live or not. After scrutinising for a little while, I can usually say quite confidently if it is 'real' live or not.

Luckysingh said:

I agree with you that it has been tampered with, but that doesn't mean we should see the words of the dasam pita in a different light, especially when the references are to akal purakh

Click to expand...

There are actually more references to Kal than Akal in the DG. These are both opposites yet both are translated as references to God. How can this work? The SGGS is very clear about God being Akal so references to kal do not fit.

Jasleen ji,
I'll say it frankly
1. First of all you must let go of the word God because it does not occur anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib or Dasam Granth. The word God abstracts from the reality of the concepts mentioned. It separates them, whereas in Indian texts the descriptions of so-called God, is God. Vishnu Sahasranama comes to mind. See below for a reading and translation of this text. It aligns beautifully with Guru Granth Sahib.

2. Kal or Mahakal is the ultimate death, the death of everything, whose nature is Timeless/Deathless. You cannot kill Death. Kal also means black, as kala. That is why His phallus (Shiv ji's lingam) is black. Now why is Shiv ji called by the name of Kal, by the name of Death. Well for that you will have to study Shaiv Panth.

Ishna ji,
This leads us to your concern. I used to have a big! issue with Dasam Granth having bits that seem "pornographic" but Indian society before the British Raj was quite liberal when it came to sex I mean there are granths like Kaam Sutra, which go into a lot detail about relationships and sex. Outlining and guiding the reader step by step through the courtship rituals and the how to please one another with different kinds of sexual acts. This was important to Indians as husband and wife relationship was considered sacred never to be broken. To keep it intact they wanted to make sure it was done correctly, where both parties knew their responsibilities and could keep other pleased and happy. I read a few chapters and it confirms my hypothesis that Dasam Granth only appears problematic in a post-Raj age but when placed in its context it fits right in.

Sri Visnu Sahasranama - Full - Complete - 1000 Names of Vishnu - - YouTube

BhagatSingh said:

Jasleen ji,
I read a few chapters and it confirms my hypothesis that Dasam Granth only appears problematic in a post-Raj age but when placed in its context it fits right in.

Click to expand...

Yeah I agree, there is a definite need for pages and pages of examples of how sexually lewd and manipulative women can be. :}:

To compare charitropakhyan with Kaama Sutra is like apples and oranges. The Kaama Sutra is a manual of sexual relations. The charitropakhyan is "cautionary tales on the wiles of women".

Guruji's legitimate "from women, kings are born" shabad of what, 8 lines or something, has to compete with 80-odd PAGES of this:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/28943-prof-darshan-and-charitropakhyan-2.html#post118887

Yeah I agree, there is a definite need for pages and pages of examples of how sexually lewd and manipulative women can be.

Click to expand...

Are some women not sexually lewd and manipulative? Should men not inform themselves of this behaviour? The reality is Guru Sahib's military was all men. These writings then are for men, specifically warrior-monks who would find these tales passed down to them so they can protect themselves. You are welcome to read them but you are not the target audience.

BhagatSingh said:

Are some women not sexually lewd and manipulative? Should men not inform themselves of this behaviour? The reality is Guru Sahib's military was all men. These writings then are for men, specifically warrior-monks who would find these tales passed down to them so they can protect themselves. You are welcome to read them but you are not the target audience.

Click to expand...

Are men not sexually lewd and manipulative? Should women not be informed about the dangers? I find your stance incredibly insulting and like a slap on the face. I also find it flies in the face of one of the core teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - equality!! Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is about a spiritual journey for each person. There is nothing spiritual about insulting others, women or otherwise. I also find it insulting to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that people find it lacking and need inspiration from 'elsewhere'. I feel that attitude undermines the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If a person has learnt chastity and morality from SGGS then no other "lessons" are required to face life as the toolbox for dealing with adversity is already there

Jasleen ji,
How you can be insulted by criticism of women in a text which has a huge emphasis on a venerated female deity, Durga, is beyond me. In Chaupai, Guru Sahib prays to Durga, his inspiration, for success in the battlefield.

It is true that Guru Granth Sahib is all about a spiritual journey. It also teaches many ways of controlling one's desires. Nowhere does it say that only it can be the only source of inspiration for a Sikh. In fact, if you didn't know this, a Sikh can actually have many sources of inspiration, even those outside the religion.

Now Guru Granth Sahib is all about a spiritual journey. It does not teach or inspire one to become a warrior. A spiritual warrior, conquering the enemies of kaam, krodh, lobh, moh and ahankar, maybe, but it certainly does not inspire one to conquer other beings in a battlefield.

Guru Gobind Singh ji was very aware of this. His Sikhs were soft and saintly and would dare not lift their hand at someone. He likened them to slaves. He said "no more" and got to work.

This thread is titled 'Dasam granth and the BANI recited in khade di pahul'
If you look at the OP, you will note that this thread was moved out of a charitropakhayan thread previously.

So, here we are again NOT discussing the issue at hand, but trying to give Charitropakhayn a 'R-restricted and pornographic' rating !!:noticekudi::noticemunda:

Why can't the issue on hand be discussed ?

Don't we agree that the dasam granth holds importance as mentioned with regards to the banis in rehat and amrit ceremony ?

My question is, how can some people reject the WHOLE granth, because without it the the sikh can't even be defined ?

The dasam pita's bani, is as pure and sacred as the rest of the gurus word.
Yes, he didn't declare anything else but ONLY the Adi Granth as the eternal guru and the guru's word.
But, doesn't the dasam granth have any importance for the khalsa ?

I'm asking a simple question as I am quite undecided :interestedmunda:
I'm not 'anti' and neither am I 'pro', I'm simply a sikh of the Sri Guru Adi granth sahib ji as instructed, but I also have respect and love for our khalsa father, who we can never repay for the sacrifices he made.
( as in th the line 'dehna kaun dehouga tera' from 'sarbans daniya ve')

Waheguru

Well said.

My question is, how can some people reject the WHOLE granth, because without it the the sikh can't even be defined ?

Click to expand...

Lucky Singh ji, not Sikh but Khalsa. Not our modern definitition of Khalsa but the puratan one, one who would fight a legion and was ACTIVELY TRAINING in swordsmanship and art of war, to do so.

If Sikhs need the DG to be complete, and the DG is targeted at a male audience, what are you saying about female Sikhs? Sorry, Khalsa.

We are saying you should stay home and be safe while we go fight and die for your safety. :sippingcoffeemunda: