Sikhism/Gurmatt Nankian Philosophy: A Totally New And Unique Path To The Creator

The Uniqueness of Guru nanak Ji Sahib's Nirmal Panth has always been regarded as either "subservient" to Hinduism/vedic philosophy or a side kick to Islam's monotheism philosophy or even worse..an amalgmation of Both !! Most Sikh scholars of repute have not been able to discard their Hindu/brahmin/vedic leanings to see Guru nanak Ji's GURMATT PATH as soemthing that is Totally NEW and UNIQUE in that Guru nanak ji totally REJECTED all previous philosophies, rituals, traditions, religious books, etc etc and Established His OWN clear and unique Path as the Gaddee Raah towards the Creator - a Super Duper Highway, with no "toll stops", no hang-ups and no restrictions. This Raah is open to all irrespective of race or creed , caste or social status, rich and the poor, black and the white..all that is required is Simple TRUTHFUL LIVING.
Dr Baldev Singh Ji in this brilliant treatise brings this to the fore - in his usual forthright language.
The Sikh bulletin has devoted the Entire Issue for feb-March 2009 to this article. A worthwhile read indeed. See the Attachment for the Article.

A very good read. Some 35 years ago Hardev S. Shergill became my guardian while I stayed in Vancouver for 6 months.

Giani Ji
I have gone through the article attached by you. I found it like churning the water.

How far you accept the conclusion when he writes concept of Karma
soul, and savlation, 'For example the concept of God, incarnation of God, the caste system,

transmigration and karma, soul and salvation, hell and heaven, gods and goddesses, and idol worship were all swept into the dustbin.'
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder​

The article makes me think we can have a healthy and prolonged discussion in this thread.

Baldev Singh is a controversial figure in Sikh circles. So it may not be a matter of who is right or who is wrong. Rather it may be that some interpretations of concepts like karma are clearly wrong given the wisdom of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. And finding that which is closer to a correct understanding requires discussion and strong applications of bibek buddhi (as Mr. Shergill inspires us to do in his introduction to the article).

Here is an example of where good discussion can take place. I quote from the article, on Karma and reincarnation:

The superstructure of Varna Ashrama Dharma/caste system
is supported by karma and reincarnation (transmigration). In
other words, both karma and reincarnation are part of the
trilogy invented by the Brahmans and they both are designed
to justify the caste base factor. The Brahman invoked divine
sanctions to perpetuate the caste system for eternity. Hindu
scriptures proclaim that Prajapati (God) ordained the four
castes. This was followed by the invention of the doctrine of
"karma and reincarnation" to desensitize people’s sense of
justice and compassion against the atrocities committed on
the masses to enforce the caste system. According to the law
of karma, one reaps the fruit in this life for the deeds
performed in the previous life. So, if a person is subjected to
injustice and cruelty in this life, it is due to one’s own actions
in previous life, not due to the perpetrators of cruelty and
injustice.

There is no question in my mind these interpretations of karma and reincarnation were rejected by Guru Nanak. These meanings of karma and reincarnation cannot be separated from the caste system -- as given in the Law of Manu. Beings struggle, according to this view, for thousands of reincarnations at lower levels, in suffering, cleansing their karma until they are purified and move to the next level where they endure a different level of suffering. And the process starts all over again. Even Mahatma Ghandi advised the sudras to feel blessed by their suffering because this was their time to discover the gift of humility which would take them to the next level up. In other words, content yourself with your suffering because it is good for your soul. It is complete arrogance for someone who believes himself to be at a superior plane to tell the miserable masses to endure it because it is good for the soul.

Guru Nanak completely repudiated all of this. What is Mr. Baldev Singh saying? That the doctrine of karma and reincarnation enforced the rule of moral apathy among the low and moral arrogance among the high. Everyone had to stay stuck where they were. This arrogance was among other things the cause of endless suffering. The ideas of karma and reincarnation kept the social system revolving in one place and no one could escape "the fear of coming and going." What was missing from the equation was the idea of moral accountability.

The bull of dharma in metaphor was and is standing then and now on only one leg -- bearing the weight of the world's criminality. All forgetting that the Universal Sach was/is how dharma is regained.

In my opinion Baldev Singh is correct in his reading that Guru Nanak completely overturned the prevailing theories of karma and reincarnation. What is left open is whether there is another Nanakian understanding of karma and reincarnation, and what that might be. That will be a good discussion.

My own reservations so far with the article pertain more to Baldev Singh's apparent "intellectualization" of the nature of hukam, dharma and the cosmic order. Intellectualization and bibek buddhi are not the same thing. So far I have not finished the article -- maybe Baldev ji will be more convincing to me in how he constructs the nature of buddhi in coming to an understanding of hukam, cosmic order, the nature of God.

But I hope we can continue a discussion of the article. And use our buddhi so that future discussions do not become childish. I look forward to your continued interactions japjisahib04 ji because you are taking questions from your heart.

AAD JIO,

super brilliant and insightful.....how you managed to catch the beam of light in your palm astonishes yet gladdens me. Guru Ji has indeed "chosen" wisely...Some of us were simply born into Sikhi....others had sikhi thrust upon them ( in a nice way !!)....

Guru nanak Ji had the World's biggest "dustbin" and YES He and his successors threw a whole lot of utter rubbish into this...BUT most of us just cant resist the idea..of one look at the dustbin..and ..saying...what ?? This thrown here..this looks perfectly "good"..lets keep it for some future use....and then we "see" another so called "useful" thing..and then another..and we reclaim a whole lot back from the dustbin.
Gurbani and the GURUS used the same words..BUT they had entirely NEW MEANINGS...for those Old words and concepts...WHY the Brahmin?Mannu "certifies" Karma is entirely different from the "karma" Guru Ji considers...Gurbaksh Singh kala Afghana has been condemned for this - he delved deeply into the whys and the hows of the Brahmin/Mannu mind control mechnaisms perpetuated to keep the Sudras and the others under their THUMB. In fact I would even go so far to say that the Heaven/Hell concepts are also founded on the premise of KEEPING CONTROL over the Masses - That is why the Communists call Religion the Opiate of the Masses (but I dont agree completley because the Commies throw OUT GOD as well - so they are only partly right !! AND they are Partly RIGHT because thats why the Sikh GURUS BANNED the PRIESTLY CLASS from Sikhism- its this Class that OPPRESSES..in the Name of GOD as is happening now in Sikhism - because our forefathers couldnt resist picking up things from the GURUS" DUSTBIN. Now the Priests and Hisgh Priests and Jathedars are back with a Vengeance to extract their pound of flesh from the Sikh masses just like their Brahmin/Prohit predecessors that Guru nanak condemned in Asa Di Vaar and relegated to the Dustbin.
the HEAVEN/SURG cooncept is to "reward"...the CARROT approach to pacify and control the masses and keep them subjugated. BUT not Everyone takes to the carrot approach..for these hardened souls there is the STICK..or Narak/Hell approach....Gurbani mentions the Famous SAW of Heaven in a Holy City..the Karwatt Arra..this was a saw placed on top of a deep well....and anyone wealthy enough to go to Heaven was offerred the "Once in a life time chance" to SIGN over all his welath to the Brahmin....and have his HEAD SAWED OFF..and thrown into the "well...to Heaven" !!
Guru Ji visited this place ...the SATEE practise was also nothing less than the naked way of grabbing properties of the dead person by getting rid of his wife..GURU JI Banned this as well...
IF we read GURBANI as intended by the GURUS..as intentioned by them...see their outlook...the BHAAV.... we will see clearly WHY a SIKH/GURSIKH/GURMUKH is not at all to be remotley "attracted" by "HEAVEN"..or scared of "HELL"...that is WHY the Sacred Gurbani repeats agian and again....a Gumukh DOES NOT DESIRE HEAVEN....he wants only MERGER with the Creator....SAME goes for karma, re-incarnation, migration, reclamation, 84 lakh joons etc etc etc....EVERYTIME Time and Time again..the BOTTOM LINE of GURUS TEACHING IS...."This Human janm is PRECIOUS..Once in a life time opportunity..unimaginably VALUABLE.... ONLY chance to MEET THE MAKER....merge with the MAKER..dont waste it... DONT WASTE IT....DONT WASTE IT..." The Gurus shabad may mention anything and everything..from heavens to hells..from Karmas to reincarnations to 84 lakh joons and migrations recycling etc etc BUT ALWAYS...the GURU RETURNS EMPHATICALLY to the CORE TEACHING..DONT WASTE THIS HUMAN BIRTH...use it to MERGE with thy maker. YOU WILL NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE. PERIOD.
Please continue to add to this discussion....:yes:

Gyani ji

You always crack me up... in about 4 words, and then I am helpless without fail~~~ Now this paragraph!

Guru Nanak Ji had the World's biggest "dustbin" and YES He and his successors threw a whole lot of utter rubbish into this...BUT most of us just cant resist the idea..of one look at the dustbin..and ..saying...what ?? This thrown here..this looks perfectly "good"..lets keep it for some future use....and then we "see" another so called "useful" thing..and then another..and we reclaim a whole lot back from the dustbin. (Gyani ji, previous post)

One thing I forgot to say earlier. For Guru Nanak, there was no high and there was no low. And that is another "useful" thing in the "dustbin." When people (not just Sikhs) see it, the idea of the high and the low, they say "this looks perfectly 'good' " and they can't let go of it.One million thanks.

Here is something posted a while back by forum membe VaheguruSeekr ji about Dogma inflexible beliefs. I thought I would post it here because it is relevant to this discussion.

Dogmas Versus the Science of Guru Nanak


It is amazing to see the strife amongst Sikh brethren, between the oldschoolers, who take Sikhi as one more belief system based on some dogmas which can not be questioned because questioning gives Sikhi a scientific approach.

Then there are others who want to question and find answers besides repeating and memorizing the Gurbani, the TRUE essence of the message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I include myself in the latter.
Source:: Sikh Sikhs Sikhism http://www.sikhism.us/showthread.php?t=14565

First and foremost the question we should ask is, why this fear of the scientific approach when as Sikhs we live in the realm of NIRBHAU. Why reject something without even understanding it? Is this the role reversal of a Sikh who wants to wear a Janieu without questioning its meaning? We hope not.

Lets try to define what SIKHI is before we indulge in our obstinated view of Sikhi through our self created blinders and start mud slinging with fellowseekers who may have a different approach which is as old or as new as IK ONGKAAR, and that's of questioning in order to create perfect harmony within-Sahej- Gurmat Fulcrum.

Lots of us still refer to Sikhi as a religion, full of dogmas of dos and don'ts based on personalities like Judaism (Messiah in coming), Christianity(Jesus), Islam (Mohammed) and Hinduism (many deities personified as gods andgoddesses). We tend to compare sikhi with these religions, each of which claims to have the ONLY WAY to seek IK ONG KAAR. In other words all the above personality based religions are exclusive, enclosed by walls erected with bricksand mortar called dogmas. In order for them to lure the followers, they offer their exclusively concocted snake oil (secret recipe) to the potential recruits as the only ticket to an imaginary place called Heaven-eternal life. And those on the outside are guaranteed to go to an awful place deep in the earth(where all our riches in the form of minerals come from) called Hell-eternal torment. In order for the followers to get the full potential of the snake oil rub, they invented mechanical rituals which do not require any thought process thus making them feel as comfy as birds of a feather. This creates an environment of an exclusive - bigoted- group with its exclusive rituals - Water baptism, Hajj, praying 5 times, circumcision, animal and human sacrifice (Sati) and many more. These enclosed belief systems created their own Dos and Don’ts. As someone said about Christianity, which can also be applied to all dogmatic religions, "It is time for all spiritual beings to stop preaching hell fire and brimstone and other stupid fears, and just teach, "love one another"...nothing else".

Source:: Sikh Sikhs Sikhism http://www.sikhism.us/showthread.php?t=14565

These dogmatic religions went to wars, crossing the territorial boundaries in order to enforce and expand their belief systems unto others in the way of abductiing, raping and ruthless killings all in the name of some imaginary personified God with a long white beard and anger in his eyes, holding a clipboard or the modern kind with the tablet pc, noting down our each movement, just like the prison warden keeping an eye on the shackled ones.

Fear became the mode de jour, mouse traps with cheesy dogmas as baits and we all know when a mouse is trapped, there is no way out.

Then in the 15th century came Nanak- The Guru. The one that took the veil of fear-based ignorance away. He helped us come out of the darkness of dogmas and examine ourselves in the light of pragmatism- The Sat. He showed us that IK ONGKAAR couldn’t be put behind any walls and become exclusive to any one-belief system. In fact he took the notion of belief system out of the Sikh psyche and gave us the unique way of life called Sikhi Marg based on 3 basic rules of thumbs: Naam Japnah, Kirat karni and Vand kei chaknah.

Dogmas create ideologues not pragmatists. Solutions of the world's problems cannot be solved by any dogmatic ideology but only by pragmatism. That’s the message of Guru Nanak to us and we should embrace it.

The best example in today's world is of our President Bush’s change of policies in Iraq, which were based on ideology and not pragmatism.

If my fellow mates, who are reluctant in using the word Science in their sikhi way of life, change it to Pragmatism, it may help them to see our Gurus' message from a different dimension- sans dogmas, sans do's and don'ts but only with will's and won'ts. Because Sikhi is NOT dogmatic but Pragmatic, hence scientific

Tejwant

Giani Ji and aad Ji

While you lay emphasis on the GURU CORE TEACHING..DONT WASTE THIS HUMAN BIRTH...use it to MERGE with thy maker. YOU WILL NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE. PERIOD, you didn't complete the other side of it. What happens to those who don't even try to merge back or live like criminal. Do they get immunity from this pankti, kar kar karna likh lai jaey aapai beej aapai hi khaey nanak hukmi aavai jaey'. While Guru Nanak logically destroyes and discarded the theory of Avtarhood, disowned all its sectarian gods, goddesses and Avtars and condemened idol worship, formalism, ritualism, ceremonialism, supersition, can you give me one pankti from SGGS which rejects transmigration, soul and laikh na maiti hai sakhi jo likhiya kartar.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

TEJwant Ji writes..Then in the 15th century came Nanak- The Guru. The one that took the veil of fear-based ignorance away. He helped us come out of the darkness of dogmas and examine ourselves in the light of pragmatism- The Sat. He showed us that IK ONGKAAR couldn’t be put behind any walls and become exclusive to any one-belief system. In fact he took the notion of belief system out of the Sikh psyche and gave us the unique way of life called Sikhi Marg based on 3 basic rules of thumbs: Naam Japnah, Kirat karni and Vand kei chaknah...

THAT is what is conveveyed by Bhai Gurdass Ji when he writes..
Mitee DHUND JAGG CHANNANN HOYA.
Please note that Bhai Gurdass Jis choice of Vocabulary is unimaginably accurate and fulto the brim with meanings...Perhaps that si why his wriitngs are termed Kunji to Gurbani of SGGS ( NOT to beleive thsoe that say Gurbani is "locked"..Kunji is NOT in that sense at all...its in the sense we have "footnotes..expalnations etc in modern serious writings......Gurbani is OPEN and visible...Bhai Gurdass Jis choice vocabulary just makes sense in understanding Gurbani...)
Here he chose the word DHUND..FOG..( and not Darkness/hanera/night..as that is total absence of LIGHT. ) IN DHUND circumstances..the SUN is SHINING..BUT 'certain weather conditioins" make its LIGHT go DIM..until one cant see anything...IN BROAD DAYLIGHT !! See the fantastic analogy..the SACH..the TRUTH is already SHINING...But "DHUND" ...of rituals, traditions, pramparas, utter rubbish of customs and blind beleifs etc etc BLOCKED the TRUTH from the people...Guur Nanak ji came along and LIFTED the VEIL of FOG...removed the DHUND..and made it poossible for the people to see the TRUTH.

Guru nanak ji REMOVED the veil on Truth put in place through DOGMAS and man made laws and rituals etc etc.../:welcome:

Giani Ji and aad Ji

While you lay emphasis on the GURU CORE TEACHING..DONT WASTE THIS HUMAN BIRTH...use it to MERGE with thy maker. YOU WILL NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE. PERIOD, you didn't complete the other side of it. What happens to those who don't even try to merge back or live like criminal. Do they get immunity from this pankti, kar kar karna likh lai jaey aapai beej aapai hi khaey Nanak hukmi aavai jaey'. While Guru Nanak logically destroyes and discarded the theory of Avtarhood, disowned all its sectarian gods, goddesses and Avtars and condemened idol worship, formalism, ritualism, ceremonialism, supersition, can you give me one pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which rejects transmigration, soul and laikh na maiti hai sakhi jo likhiya kartar.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

jagjisahib04 ji

I am curious about your comment : "What happens to those who don't even try to merge back or live like criminal. Do they get immunity from this pankti, kar kar karna likh lai jaey aapai beej aapai hi khaey Nanak hukmi aavai jaey'."

Where did we disagree with it? Moral accountability for our deeds, rather than pure fatalism, is part of the Sikh understanding of karma, dharma and mukhti. Did you think I did not believe that?

japjisahib04 said:

Giani Ji and aad Ji

While you lay emphasis on the GURU CORE TEACHING..DONT WASTE THIS HUMAN BIRTH...use it to MERGE with thy maker. YOU WILL NOT GET A SECOND CHANCE. PERIOD, you didn't complete the other side of it. What happens to those who don't even try to merge back or live like criminal. Do they get immunity from this pankti, kar kar karna likh lai jaey aapai beej aapai hi khaey nanak hukmi aavai jaey'. While Guru Nanak logically destroyes and discarded the theory of Avtarhood, disowned all its sectarian gods, goddesses and Avtars and condemened idol worship, formalism, ritualism, ceremonialism, supersition, can you give me one pankti from SGGS which rejects transmigration, soul and laikh na maiti hai sakhi jo likhiya kartar.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

Click to expand...

Respected Members,
please try to understand what jagjisah04ji ( Mohinder Sahni )is saying, Dr Baldev Singh ji has given a new insight into understanding Gurbani; however, he got carried away with his own intuition that he forces on Guru Nanak. There are numerous Guru vakas that go against what Dr Baldev Singh advocates, he can twist meaning of one Vaak or two but there are so many Vakas that talk about transformation of the soul and preordained writs. That is what Mohinder Sahni is pointing out. If you want I can give you numerous examples where these facts are supported by Gurbani.

Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

How far you accept the conclusion when he writes concept of Karma
soul, and savlation, 'For example the concept of God, incarnation of God, the caste system,

transmigration and karma, soul and salvation, hell and heaven, gods and goddesses, and idol worship were all swept into the dustbin.'​

Click to expand...

Can you please elaborate in your own words with your Gurmat wisdom what you mean by the above and what your disagreement is about?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant Ji

My enquiry has been elborated by S.PK70 and I state that I do not agree with Dr.Baldev Singh conclusion that Guru Nanak threw reality of Karma, soul and ultimate merger with our roots and for that I requested one single pankti from SGGS which rejects concept of karma, soul and ultimate merger with God whereas I can list pankti from SGGS which support karma, soul and ultimate merger with God.

While rejecting hollow rituals of bathing in river, Gurbani tells us if merger can be obtained by bath in river, then what about frog which is alway in water. As is frog so is the mortal, he is reincarnated over and over again. This is Hukam. SGGS 484.16. It means not only human but animals also go through this process.

Dear Aad ji when I quoted I was referring to Dr.Baldev Singh article. I do beleive moral accountability of our deeds rather than pure fatalism.

I would request S.Tejwant Ji if he think I am wrong to shed more light on it.

Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

Japjisahib04ji

Thank you for your response. Allow me to clarify my own reactions so far in the thread -- so that you know I have tried to sort out the issues. I stated earlier that Dr. Baldev Singh ji is a controversial figure. His early commentaries published at SikhSpectrum stirred controversy almost immediately. He argued as follows:

Main thesis: Guru Nanak rejected the idea of reincarnation, karma and transmigration as understood in Vedantic/Hindu traditions.

Minor thesis is: Guru Nanak rejects the idea that union with the Divine requires endless cycles of life and death.

Inference then flowing from these ideas:s Guru Nanak repealed the the requirement to reincarnate lifetime after lifetime in order to achieve higher and higher levels of consciousness until union with god is possible. There is evidence in Gurbani that Dr. Singh is right about this. There is also opposing evidence. And that is why there is so much controversy.

1. He is suggesting that Guru Nanak saw the mechanics of "reincarnation" or "rebirth" very differently from his Brahmin, Vedantic ancestors and predecessors.

2. He is also suggesting that the Hindu view of reincarnation was so colored by political and economic considerations that it was and is itself a morally corrupt construct.

Why morally corrupt?

As such (law of karma, and reincarnation: edited by aad0002) it doomed the lower castes to thousands of lifetimes on earth and kept them morally, spiritually and even economically the slaves of the more "evolved" Brahmin caste --- for the lower castes, their moral lesson was to endure, suffer and serve the upper classes in order to "cleanse" their karma. At no time in those cycles could they lay claim to the religious and spiritual tools for salvation (liberation: edited by aad0002) as they were not permitted to read or chant from the Vedas or perform many soul-saving rituals.

The so called "evolved" souls at the same time were not acting in a very "evolved" way -- but like extortionists and collaborators.

As such the pre-Nanak view of karma and reincarnation also doomed the entire society to be helpless victims of fate -- fatalists -- who were open targets in large numbers for oppressive overlords.

By accepting everything that happens to you as the will of one god or the other, it is then unnecessary to take responsibility for one's own actions. It also casts the divine nature or natures - if there is more than one god under review - into the role of a detail-oriented micro-manager who has no regard for the welfare of his creation. And that was exactly the legacy of the Brahmins of Guru Nanak's age -- gods who broke common laws of morality and still demanded rituals and offering, and meddled in people's lives on a regular basis. This view of the Divine is also rejected in Gurbani.

The idea of "cleansing karma" is another idea that Guru Nanak may have forcefully challenged. Is Guruji asking us to focus on moral cleanliness rather than karmic cleansing?

Dr. Baldev Singh, in my understanding, has put some theological problems on the table for the rest of us to consider. Guru Nanak's moral philosophy (and its relationship to reincarnation, karma, union with God) was much much more than a restatement of Hindu ideas.

Did Dr. Baldev Singh ever state that union with God was not possible? Let's dig more deeply into the article.

aad0002 said:

Japjisahib04ji

Thank you for your response. Allow me to clarify my own reactions so far in the thread -- so that you know I have tried to sort out the issues. I stated earlier that Dr. Baldev Singh ji is a controversial figure. His early commentaries published at SikhSpectrum stirred controversy almost immediately. He argued as follows:

Main thesis: Guru Nanak rejected the idea of reincarnation, karma and transmigration as understood in Vedantic/Hindu traditions.

Minor thesis is: Guru Nanak rejects the idea that union with the Divine requires endless cycles of life and death.

Inference then flowing from these ideas:s Guru Nanak repealed the the requirement to reincarnate lifetime after lifetime in order to achieve higher and higher levels of consciousness until union with god is possible. There is evidence in Gurbani that Dr. Singh is right about this. There is also opposing evidence. And that is why there is so much controversy.

1. He is suggesting that Guru Nanak saw the mechanics of "reincarnation" or "rebirth" very differently from his Brahmin, Vedantic ancestors and predecessors.

2. He is also suggesting that the Hindu view of reincarnation was so colored by political and economic considerations that it was and is itself a morally corrupt construct.

Why morally corrupt?

As such it doomed the lower castes to thousands of lifetimes on earth and kept them morally, spiritually and even economically the slaves of the more "evolved" Brahmin caste --- for the lower castes, their moral lesson was to endure, suffer and serve the upper classes in order to "cleanse" their karma. At no time in those cycles could they lay claim to the religious and spiritual tools for salvation, as they were not permitted to read or chant from the Vedas or perform many soul-saving rituals.

The so called "evolved" souls at the same time were not acting in a very "evolved" way -- but like extortionists and collaborators.

As such the pre-Nanak view of karma and reincarnation also doomed the entire society to be helpless victims of fate -- fatalists -- who were open targets in large numbers for oppressive overlords.

By accepting everything that happens to you as the will of one god or the other, it is then unnecessary to take responsibility for one's own actions. It also casts the divine nature or natures - if there is more than one god under review - into the role of a detail-oriented micro-manager who has no regard for the welfare of his creation. And that was exactly the legacy of the Brahmins of Guru Nanak's age -- gods who broke common laws of morality and still demanded rituals and offering, and meddled in people's lives on a regular basis. This view of the Divine is also rejected in Gurbani.

The idea of "cleansing karma" is another idea that Guru Nanak may have forcefully challenged. Is Guruji asking us to focus on moral cleanliness rather than karmic cleansing?

Dr. Baldev Singh, in my understanding, has put some theological problems on the table for the rest of us to consider. Guru Nanak's moral philosophy (and its relationship to reincarnation, karma, union with God) was much much more than a restatement of Hindu ideas.

Did Dr. Baldev Singh ever state that union with God was not possible? Let's dig more deeply into the article.

Click to expand...

Antonia ji,

You have expressed your thoughts very nitidly. Sikhi is about openmindedness. As we were talking on the other day that Gurbani is like a very well crafted and lapitared diamond by our Gurus. Each of us sees it through the light bestowed on us through Shabad Vichaar.

Thanks once again

Tejwant Singh

Sahni ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. If I am not mistaken, we have discussed the same thing in another forum. As Gurbani is to be studied again and again, hence, we do Nitnem daily, so let's discuss and interact on your queries again. This is the great way to learn about Gurmat.

Your said:

I state that I do not agree with Dr.Baldev Singh conclusion that Guru Nanak threw reality of Karma, soul and ultimate merger with our roots and for that I requested one single pankti from SGGS which rejects concept of karma, soul and ultimate merger with God whereas I can list pankti from SGGS which support karma, soul and ultimate merger with God.

Click to expand...

I am a bit puzzled about your inquiry to Dr. Baldev Singh. I must state that I have never met Dr. Singh in person but I enjoy his Gurmat prespective in his articles. He makes me ponder as do many other writers and scholars.

I know lots of people quote a pankti or two to prove their point which in my opinion is not the right approach. The RAHAO part in any Shabad is very vital. I hope you would not disagree with me that RAHAO has the main idea of the whole thought process expressed by our Gurus for that particular Shabad.

So I would request you one thing and let us do this Shabad by Shabad. Please quote your own understanding of the whole Shabad that you think or claim that contradicts what Dr. Singh said in his article, then we can go from there. Please do not copy & paste any transliterations from the Internet because most of them are not only wrong but misleading.

Sant Singh Khalsa's is the worst of all amongst many others.

If I were you, I would read Dr. Sahib Singh's translation in Punjabi and then express it in your own words in English.

This is the way we can all learn from each other and then we can also invite Dr.Singh here to this forum and ask him express his views against others' including yours.

What do you mean by "ultimate merger with God"?

Guru Nanak says in Mool Mantar that Ik Ong Kaar is Ajuni Sahibangh, meaning - Creative Energy.

And isn't Ik Ong Kaar omipresent?

Thanks and hope to learn a lot from you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji

I am wondering how we could invite Dr. Baldev Singh to the forum to engage in a discussion :star: What a great experience that would be.

You know from our one-on-one discussions that I myself believe in reincarnation. However Dr. Baldev's ideas are persuasive to me that a theory of continual re-cycling of personal souls is on shaky ground per Gurbani.

What is dharma? What is the law of karma? What is reincarnation? Interconnected questions -- and if Guru Nanak had a transformation of understanding and shared that transformation through his Bani, then discussions of these three questions need to reflect the transformed ideas. As you say, just my two cents

aad0002 said:

Tejwant ji

I am wondering how we could invite Dr. Baldev Singh to the forum to engage in a discussion :star: What a great experience that would be.

You know from our one-on-one discussions that I myself believe in reincarnation. However Dr. Baldev's ideas are persuasive to me that a theory of continual re-cycling of personal souls is on shaky ground per Gurbani.

What is dharma? What is the law of karma? What is reincarnation? Interconnected questions -- and if Guru Nanak had a transformation of understanding and shared that transformation through his Bani, then discussions of these three questions need to reflect the transformed ideas. As you say, just my two cents

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Antonia ji,

That can be arranged but let us first see from Sahni Sahib and others what their real objections are from Gurmat viewpoint and how they their interpretation differs from Dr. Singh's. Dr. Singh has given his opinion in his articles so let us give ourselves a chance to express what we agree and disagree upon then we can ask him to come and participate.

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant Ji
Thanks for your response. I wish and hope that I enjoy sharing Gurmat with you. I too have never met Dr. Baldev Singh but unfortunately like you I didn’t enjoy reading his presentation as it couldn’t attach me emotionally with my roots. Since we have discussed this topic in another Form, I wouldn’t take much of your time. Let me tell you I am not a scholar but a simple student of Gurbani. As I understand by contemplating gurbani, we must avail this opportunity of human jama to merge back from where we came. I recite daily instructions in Kirtan Sohila ‘sadanhara simriye’ For me, I take it I must surrender to sabd guru to be truthful so that I am entitled for his grace and I am accepted back within the short span of my journey. I have realized without accountability of my deeds alongwith urge to merge back, it is not possible.
Now since you have asked for rahao tuk, I have no difficulty in presenting, not one but two rahao tuks in one salok which supports concept of transmigration on page 686-687.
And as suggested I have opened Prof Sahib Singh translation though I find it not to the mark.
Aink jnm BRim iQiq nhI pweI ] krau syvw gur lwgau crn goivMd jI kw mwrgu dyhu jI bqweI ]1] rhwau ] hy siqgurU! AnykW jUnW ivc Btk Btk ky (jUnW qoN bcx dw hor koeI) itkwau nhIN l`Bw [ hux mYN qyrI crnIN Aw ipAw hW, mYN qyrI hI syvw krdw hW, mYƒ prmwqmw (dy imlwp) dw rsqw d`s dy [1[rhwau[
sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ] Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw(hy BweI! gurU dy dr qy ipAW) mnu`Kw jIvn vwlw s&r kwmXwb ho jWdw hY [ gurU ƒ iml ky jnm mrn dy gyV mu`k jWdy hn [1[ rhwau dUjw
The second rahao is addressing it as a journey. My simple question is can journey be one sided?
Sahni Mohinder