General Concept Of Jhoot (re: Jootha Food)

Hello everyone,



I wanted to see people views on the concept of jhoot. To prevent ambiguity let's be clear that the 'jhoot' I refer to is the one often associated with cleanliness and food hygiene. By that I mean that 'jhoot' is food that has been eaten by someone else, food that is 'infected' with saliva.

I was thinking that maybe jhoot is not meant to be taken literally. It was only in the (don't quote me) beginning of the 20th century that people began to take hygiene seriously? I don't really see the harm of eating food that contains jhoot.

As far as spiritual benefits of not avoiding jhoot go, again, if not taken literally, I have noticed that the jhoot contained in my own mind is more poisonous to my being than anything I can put in my mouth. Let's be real about this. If you look at a lot of the social/cultural norms and habits that you carry about, really look hard into them and meditate a lot, you will notice that a lot of what I would call 'jhoot' stains your day-to-day existence.

In the spiritual realm, sure it's all a part of the whole, but the jhoot I refer to is the most impeding.

So my thoughts are, that people who take jhoot to the extreme, and have their own cooking utensils, refuse to eat with non amritdharis and stuff, is taking it a little too far. I would call that narcissism.

And just the other day I saw a amritdhari child getting a veggie burger from a meat takeaway shop where I was eating. I see no problem with that at all. I just hope for his sake that he doesn't get a load of steel utensils and lock himself away from the world some day, that would be stupid.

Your views would be much appreciated...
:interestedmunda:



NinduP

Cheers for the video, it has some good insights. I have no problems with jhoot, food hygiene yes, but not the literal jhoot.

What I was trying to get at was, that maybe this jhoot we are taught about, is a metaphor.

:angryadminsingh:

NinduP said:

Cheers for the video, it has some good insights. I have no problems with jhoot, food hygiene yes, but not the literal jhoot.

What I was trying to get at was, that maybe this jhoot we are taught about, is a metaphor.

:angryadminsingh:

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NinduP ji your phoenetics is wrong in what you are asking for if it helps,

• Jhoot or Jhooth
  • Lie, Telling lies
• Jooth
  • Leftover of food eaten by others

In Sikh Rehat Maryada the following is stated,

T) T) qnKwhIey ieh hn:-

• Subject to congregation penalty

2. by-AMimRqIey jW piqq dw jUTw Kwx vwlw[

• Eating food left over by non-Baptized Sikh or one who violates the four kurehaytes

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Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria ji

This question of jootha food has been making the rounds of Internet forums, being asked in one and then another and then another. Some one or group is searching for clarifications. The confusion on this point arises because some sects, notably AKJ, say that amritdhari may eat food prepared by other amritdhari only. Prepared only in steel pots. Other ramifications follow. It causes confusion also in that unless it is made clear the AKJ have their own rehat that is different from Sikh Rehat Maryada, someone starting out on the journey does not know what to believe, is getting contradictory information, and has to shop around for a clear explanation.


To add: the idea that jootha may refer to a state of mind may be stretched. I don't know. But it is a sensible reaction to the overly literal interpretation of jootha that permeates a fanatical approach to Sikhism.

This kind of stuff does not pass the test of time either. There were no Amritdhari Sikhs before Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. Did they have such distinctions? I hardly think so. Were they bad because of it? Absolutely not.

As a matter of fact a "garib" or "poor person's" (poor in the sense of worldly goods) offering is placed on a pedestal in Sikhism. It reflects on the inside of the person that even with little that they have, they are offering you something.

Too much garbage all over.

Cleaning up, BIG JOB!

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: This indirectly relates to the practice in many families in Punjab where the lower caste were not allowed in the kitchens other than to clean dirty dishes, etc. It is much as Sikhs acting like Hindus or Muslims.

I suppose if such little things make you the "Wiseguy" or preacher and be served the best foods why not lol:angryyoungsingh:

Just line such preachers and parchariks up and give them a spanking.

The concept of jhoota food has been borrowed from the brahmins! It is a Hindu concept and has seeped into some sects of Sikhism like so many other Hindu concepts.

The concept of jhooth goes against the basic principles of langar. Langar represents togetherness and equality. Jhoot is egotistical. There is no way it can fit in with Sikhi ideals as it means you are separating yourself from those around you.

"Jhoot" I manage a restuarant and i have indian workers who do cooking for me. Now when it is there lunch time some the indian ladies will not share the same veggies that came out of the dish that is kept for customers. Not onlly that the will not use the same utensle because of "jhoot" even tough no one has eatin out of it. They still believe that is jhoot.

Now i believe "jhoot" sends out A VERY WRONG message that is unequality.

Question: can amritdhari's by the rules eat jhoot of another amritdhari?

Question: can amritdhari's by the rules eat jhoot of another amritdhari?

Harwinder ji in Sikh Rehat Maryada only the exception is noted of what "Jooth" is forbidden as described in my earlier post.

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Conversely the Amritdhari eating food of or sharing food with another Amritdhari is not considered a "Tankhayia" hence not a transgressor.

Other than as personal preference or hygienic reasons I find it pretty artificial concept.

All the food left by us is eaten by rest of the God's creation, so are we committing a sin/transgression or the poor God's creatures are doing so unknowingly!

Honey, cow's milk, food touched by flies, and many other food items will some how imply that eating animal jooth is OK but people jooth is taboo! Very strange and clearly illogical concepts.

Just my understanding.

One of the Bhagats in SGGS has said this very thing....He asks...IS the MILK not jhootha ? NO..becasue the calf drank of it.. the flower..has been smelled by the butterfly...and so on.....is the Honey not jhoothehee..NO..becasue the bees regurgitate it..thus its much WORSE than JHOOTH..its VOMIT.
An interesting and maybe disgusting fact..there is a COFFEE from Indinesia that is HUGELY expensive..ounce for ounce maybe few TIMES the price of GOLD.....and its Cofee made from the EXCRETA of a wild animal. This animal is cat like civet..it chooses the best coffee beans, eats them..and the coffee beans that come out in the FACES are then much sought after to make this Caviar of Coffee..and its so rare that only the extremely RICH can afford a cup at around USD 300/ each.
In the SIKH Context, its COMPULSORY for all Amrtidharees to SHARE the Batta of Karrah parshaad, and drink from the same batta of Pahul. Thsi is meant to BREAK the barriers of high low caste etc and bring UNITY. Guru Ka langgar pangat sarovars for common bathing etc etc all were for this UNITY. BUT then the SANTS and fake Mahapurashs came along...and began to preach Jatt-Chamaar..jatt-Mazhbi..jatt-Chimba etc etc..this happens at ALL DERAS and is OPENLY DONE. Another way in whcih these DERAS destroy Sikhi from WITHIN...
This high-low only exists in INDIA..the Arabs eat from the same dish..afghans, turks, persians,,Chinese,,all share without any inhibitions...

Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but is the main theme from posters here that the line Ambarsaria ji has quoted in post #4 from SRM is invalid?

Ishna said:

Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but is the main theme from posters here that the line Ambarsaria ji has quoted in post #4 from SRM is invalid?

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Ishan Ji..
You are interpreting it incorrectly.

AN Amrtidharee CANNOT eat left overs of non-amrtidharees/patits. If he/she does so..he/she commits a transgression - which is announced in sangat in front of panj piyare and they will give out a "punishment" of community seva/paath/etc.

Being an AMRITDHAREE is a VOLUNTARY PROCESS..so the rules have to be followed..no ifs and no buts. Once you leave..you become a Patit...which is a stage worse than a non-amrtidharee !! ( Simple analogy... Just like a Soldier who leaves awol/commits an offense against genral Orders of the army..etc. can be charged under a court marshall..thus a dishonourabally discharged ex soldier is worse off than a CIVILIAN (one who never joined the army..since joining the army is entirely Voluntary.BUT .leaving is goverend by rules...so IF you cnat stand the heat dont join..)

2. A person who never joined Khalsa..cannot be a Patit.....jsut as a civilian cannot be awol . Its another matter that many Sikhs claim they are BORN SIKHS/born Amrtidharees..not possible..SIKHI has to be acquired voluntarily....never INHERITED.

3. It was NEVER intended that each Sikh would be an Amrtidharee..thats the GOAL....just like each kid in school has a goal...but its never intended that each will be a PHD..many Fail along the way..and drop out..Only those TESTEd and found suitable become Khalsa.

Okay, thanks for the info Gyani ji.

Am I right in saying the distinction is between 'food freshly prepared' and 'left-overs', where left-over food has been partially eaten by a non-Amritdhari?

Is the SRM telling Amritdharis to avoid only the left-overs but they can in fact eat 'food prepared by' anyone?

Ishna said:

Okay, thanks for the info Gyani ji.

Am I right in saying the distinction is between 'food freshly prepared' and 'left-overs', where left-over food has been partially eaten by a non-Amritdhari?

Is the SRM telling Amritdharis to avoid only the left-overs but they can in fact eat 'food prepared by' anyone?

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Ishna ji that is correct interpretation.

Otherwise Amratdharis will become Anorexic as it will be hard to find food not touched by a non-Amritdharie.

One has to accept Sikh Rehat Maryada as written but it is a living document though rarely changed. However one can definitely submit ideas for improvement to Akal Takhat Sahib for consideration. There are some areas perhaps that qualify for such consideration.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: I wrote part of my understanding as to what it is "to live in consonance" as follows,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational/35187-have-faith-in-god-2.html#post145328

Let me know if this suffices for your interest in this area or any comments.

About the only thing that will definitley spring up in an amritdharees mind..is..did the person preparing the food smoke..touched cigarettes etc,,a taboo substance in sikhism...and surprisingly this has also been legislated by most non-sikh health authorities as well...smoking while serving cooking food for the public is frowned uopn and def no no...
A sikh preparing food for another sikh should be ok...BUt then there are soem who dont accept this..they want it form their own jathebandi...it ok with me. The AKJ strict bibeki rehat ones dont accept food from non bibeki rehat...bibeki rehat is much stricter than normal. its ther right.

I apologise to the sangat for asking these small questions of you.

Is it ok for an amritdhari to share food with members of their non-amritdhari (and perhaps non-Sikh) family?

I'm trying to get a picture in my mind of how my life would be if I am blessed to participate in amrit sanchar and be baptized. It might never happen but I think it's important to dream about it because that might one day help it become reality.

And I think too much and over-analyse and get stuck on words. Give me a gentle one of these if I'm doing it again please: :angryyoungkaur: :angryyoungsingh:

It has been established that you can eat anything prepared by anyone (of course you'd exercise your common sense and probably not eat from a pub where they smoke, or some other obviously very unhygenic or improper place).

It has been established that you can't eat left-overs having been eaten by non-amritdharis. Truthfully I probably wouldn't eat left-overs of an amritdhari I wasn't familiar with anyway!

But what about the grey-area of sharing food with someone? Technically it's not "left-over", the first partaker hasn't had their fill and stopped eating.

Some examples I have in my day-to-day life where there are no Sikhs or amritdharis involved:

I eat hot chips out of the same bag as my family members
I share popcorn out of the same box at the cinema with my family
I will sometimes drink from the same can/bottle as my husband
I very rarely taste a beverage from someone elses cup
I share crackers and dip at work functions, and chips from the same bowl
I eat chocolate-coated nuts and sultanas out of the same bowl when at family functions, amongst other sweets
I sometimes visit buffet restaurants (people serve themselves from trays but don't eat from them, this is obviously A-OK I would think or else langer is a problem!! haha)

I must admit as I sit here and ponder all the ways food is shared in my life, I realise I very, very rarely actually eat the same food from the same plate as someone. Sometimes I'll steal a chip from my husband's dinner plate when he's not looking (teehee).

So can someone please clarify for me the art of amritdhari sharing rules?

Thanks in advnace
Ishna

Ishna ji I marked in red my understanding of this Jooth concept for amritdhari sikhs (I apologize that in this matter I have taken rather literal meaning from SRM and stand corrected as findingmyway has actually done past my post),

Ishna said:

I apologise to the sangat for asking these small questions of you.

Is it ok for an amritdhari to share food with members of their non-amritdhari (and perhaps non-Sikh) family?

• From you to them if they want but not from them to you.

I'm trying to get a picture in my mind of how my life would be if I am blessed to participate in amrit sanchar and be baptized. It might never happen but I think it's important to dream about it because that might one day help it become reality.

And I think too much and over-analyse and get stuck on words. Give me a gentle one of these if I'm doing it again please: :angryyoungkaur: :angryyoungsingh:

It has been established that you can eat anything prepared by anyone (of course you'd exercise your common sense and probably not eat from a pub where they smoke, or some other obviously very unhygenic or improper place).

It has been established that you can't eat left-overs having been eaten by non-amritdharis. Truthfully I probably wouldn't eat left-overs of an amritdhari I wasn't familiar with anyway!

But what about the grey-area of sharing food with someone? Technically it's not "left-over", the first partaker hasn't had their fill and stopped eating.

Some examples I have in my day-to-day life where there are no Sikhs or amritdharis involved:

I eat hot chips out of the same bag as my family members ... No
I share popcorn out of the same box at the cinema ... No
I will sometimes drink from the same can/bottle as my husband .. No
I very rarely taste a beverage from someone elses cup .. No
I share crackers and dip at work functions, and chips from the same bowl .. No (if there are uncouth people dipping crackers with saliva from their mouths)
I eat chocolate-coated nuts and sultanas out of the same bowl when at family functions, amongst other sweets .. No (unquestionably if people are using their hands saliva will be transferred to the bowl)
I sometimes visit buffet restaurants (people serve themselves from trays but don't eat from them, this is obviously A-OK I would think or else langer is a problem!! haha) .. Yes

I must admit as I sit here and ponder all the ways food is shared in my life, I realise I very, very rarely actually eat the same food from the same plate as someone. Sometimes I'll steal a chip from my husband's dinner plate when he's not looking (teehee).

So can someone please clarify for me the art of amritdhari sharing rules?

Thanks in advnace
Ishna

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Ishna ji it must be remembered that it is a minor transgression amongst scores others which does not require you to be baptized again. It will be in you to bring such transgression to Sangat's attention and seek forgiveness (you are a "Tankhayia" .. one liable for a fine).

Sikh Rehat Maryada does state that any mistakes like these done without will or knowledge are not to be considered.

Just my understanding.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Ishna ji I will delete my post if it is adding little to your query. Please advise. Thanks.

Ishna said:

I apologise to the sangat for asking these small questions of you.

Is it ok for an amritdhari to share food with members of their non-amritdhari (and perhaps non-Sikh) family?

I'm trying to get a picture in my mind of how my life would be if I am blessed to participate in amrit sanchar and be baptized. It might never happen but I think it's important to dream about it because that might one day help it become reality.

And I think too much and over-analyse and get stuck on words. Give me a gentle one of these if I'm doing it again please: :angryyoungkaur: :angryyoungsingh:

It has been established that you can eat anything prepared by anyone (of course you'd exercise your common sense and probably not eat from a pub where they smoke, or some other obviously very unhygenic or improper place).

It has been established that you can't eat left-overs having been eaten by non-amritdharis. Truthfully I probably wouldn't eat left-overs of an amritdhari I wasn't familiar with anyway!

But what about the grey-area of sharing food with someone? Technically it's not "left-over", the first partaker hasn't had their fill and stopped eating.

Some examples I have in my day-to-day life where there are no Sikhs or amritdharis involved:

I eat hot chips out of the same bag as my family members
I share popcorn out of the same box at the cinema with my family
I will sometimes drink from the same can/bottle as my husband
I very rarely taste a beverage from someone elses cup
I share crackers and dip at work functions, and chips from the same bowl
I eat chocolate-coated nuts and sultanas out of the same bowl when at family functions, amongst other sweets
I sometimes visit buffet restaurants (people serve themselves from trays but don't eat from them, this is obviously A-OK I would think or else langer is a problem!! haha)

I must admit as I sit here and ponder all the ways food is shared in my life, I realise I very, very rarely actually eat the same food from the same plate as someone. Sometimes I'll steal a chip from my husband's dinner plate when he's not looking (teehee).

So can someone please clarify for me the art of amritdhari sharing rules?

Thanks in advnace
Ishna

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Ishna ji, it is not wrong to share. As I have said earlier, not sharing is very brahmanical and egotistic way to think of things. In langar you are sharing as you are served from the same bowl or plate or jug of water. Not sharing is cutting yourself off from the world and would make it very difficult to socialise normally. That is not what Sikhi is about. It is groups like the AKJ that push this agenda and it goes against the concept of gurmat. Let's embrace all human beings rather than trying to prove ourselves superior!

This thread has disturbed me so I could not sleep and had to come back and write some more! I find the concept of jhooth absurd on so many levels and have had many a discussion with people on the subject.

When interpreting the SRM I think we need to remember it is a dated document unlike the Guru Granth Sahib ji in that it is more influenced by the culture of the time. Sometimes we have to look at the spirit of the rule rather than looking at just the literal wording. That does not make the rules wrong, but it means we have misunderstand them.

For example, wrt marriage, the SRM forbids a Sikh woman marrying a non-Sikh. This is due to the culture at the time. A woman would convert to her husbands religion. That is no longer the case, particularly outside of India so the SRM should read a Sikh cannot marry a non-Sikh. We all know the spirit of this and follow accordingly. Another rule that confused me was that rumala's cannot be distributed as clothes. Then I found out that at the time people would treat these as special and worship them so that was why that rule was drawn up. Seems we are doing the same anyway!! However, distributing rumala's among the poor for clothing as long as they are not treated as out of the ordinary cloth or worshipped or the people wearing them being treated differently would not break the spirit of the SRM.

As far as I understand the SRM refers to leftovers. Stretching this to sharing any food seems to take things too far. If we also look back to where it comes from, eating leftovers was considered a form of worship. Those eating leftovers were considered lesser people and those leaving the food superior. The rule is meant to combat that attitude. There is some leeway. A mother finishing the food her child won't finish should not be considered wrong even though it is technically eating leftovers but the spirit of that is not what the rule is trying to combat.

This is the beauty of using our bibek budh, our discerning and intellect to understand what is right and wrong rather than just following.

A final note on the subject. I heard a great sakhi in someone's katha (can't remember who). Whether the story is real or not is irrelevant, it;s the story that counts. There was a sevadaar in the Guru's darbar who did seva in the langar hall. He was full of ego so spent sometime eating leftovers of people coming for langar. Once he reached a stage where he was no longer full of haumai he stopped eating leftovers. Rather than being scolded by the Guru for his actions, he was commended. Shows me that the reasoning is the important factor. Share the reasons for not sharing food then we can decide whether it fits in with gurmat principles.......

In langar we connect, in langar we share the divinity in one another. I think it would be good to go back to Post 2 in this thread where Guruka Singh succinctly makes the point that by refusing to share/connect we cut ourselves off from one another in ego. Thus in spite and pride, we cut ourselves off from the divinity that lives in each of us.