Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

prakash.s.bagga said:

It would be incorrect to consider the application of grammar as Punjabi Grammar.in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
It is important to understand that Punjabi is a Language not the script.The application of grammar is for the script only and the script is Gurmukhi and is indepependent of Language in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
We can find Maharshtrian Language in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as in the Banee of Bhagat NAMDEV Ji but in Gurmukhi script We can find langugaes of nealy all states across India in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but in Gurmukhi script.
We can see that the original Kabir Banee is not in Punjabi language.The whole language of Kabi Banee is from NORTh EAST area of India.And the same Banee has been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Gurmukhi script not in Punjabi language.

So the grammar is of the SCRIPT not Of the language in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

These are my personal observations and views.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Click to expand...

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

I have to agree with Ambarsariah ji..its PUNJABI GRAMMAR and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses PUNJABI GRAMMAR. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in PUNJABI....the Peoples Language as opposed to others. Grammars are for LANGUAGES..not scripts alone...for example Malay language has a Grammar but NO SCRIPT. The Only thing unique is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is UNIQUE...BUT its Part and parcel of PUNJABI LITERATURE/GREAT WRITING as well as GURU of Sikhs. IN fact many Jansanghi arya samajist HINDUS HATE PUNJABI solely becasue of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and call it the SIKH Language. For this reason alone thousnads of them STABBED their MOTHER TONGUE in her back by claiming they spoke HINDI ( in teatth punjabi..Mein Punjabi nahin Bolda..mein HINDU hun...whereas a Hindi speaker would say hum hindi mein baat kardeh hein hum hindu hein..). PUNJABI LANGUAGE in GURMUKHI SCRIPT actually SURVIVES solely becasue of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Click to expand...

Luckysingh said:

Let's not complicate things. I think the whole idea of starting this thread is a very good one and it is to SIMPLIFY things, not complicate them.
As far as I know, the gurmukhi text is an important source of the punjabi of today.
All languages can be spoken one way, but written in many different ways. We shouldn't confuse the issue by overlapping here.
I do believe as Gyani ji stated, that punjabi language survives today because of Sri guru granth sahib ji. If it were not for this, then even the written shahmukhi would still be more widespread today as it was previously.

Click to expand...

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

PUNJABI in PAKISTAN is written in SHAHMUKHI SCRIPT (same script used for URDU) Actually the Pakistani MUSLIMS also REJECTED "Punjabi in GURMUKHI SCRIPT" for the same reason the Jansanghi/aryasamajists HINDUS rejected it - that is Gurmukhi is script of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone SAVED GURMUKHI...without Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..there would be no more Gurmukhi by now...

2. Both the Muslims of Pakistan and the Punjabi Hindus know very well that PUNJABI can ONLY be written 100% as is IN GURMUKHI....shahmukhi/devnagree DISTORT PUNJABI in many ways as these Scripts are NOT suited to PUNJABI...one reason why GURU JI used the GURMUKHI SCRIPT to write Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in.

3. I also beleive that Guru Gobind Singh ji gathered the 52 Kavis at his darbar to write earlier TEXTS in the GURMUKHI SCRIPT so as to POPULARISE the SCRIPT of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Some like Bhai Nand Lal goya continued to sue the URDU SCRIPT..amny others used GURMUKHI....even though the language is Brijbhasha..or sanskrit etc. Thus we have Many HINDU religious Texts but in GURMUKHI....DG is also in GURMUKHI SCRIPT. Guru Ji was attempting to make GUMUKHI SCRIPT popular....

4. TODAY..in its Homeland PUNJAB due to ANTI_GURMUKHI/PUNJABI powers to be in AUTHORITY....Punjabi language and GURMUKHI SCRIPT BOTH are being *******ized and destroyed slowly. The Language is being heavily adulterated with HINDI/Sanskrit words which are actually DEAD and meaningless...loh patt gamnni instead of the RAILWAY which everyone knows and is popular...ON many Govt Signboards..the Script is Gurmukhi but the language is HINDI...a subtle way of destroying two birds with one stone...many signboards carry WRONG spellings on purpose..Doordarshan TV provides many many mistakes on its Gurmukhi/Punjabi signs on a regular basis..there is no excuse for such simple mistakes after PUNJABI ha sbeen First langauge of Punjab for 60 years...its disappearing form Schools as well...hardly any Punjabi knows or reads Gurmukhi script..all write Punjabi in DEVNAGREE script..esp in Delhi rajasthan Haryana etc...

5 PUNJABI however has CONQUERED NEW continents..in canada UK etc it RULES !! Its a Fact that Vancouver in Canada has MORE PUNJABI SIGNS in GURMUKHI than the entire Punjab put together !! in Canada its SECOND Language in Govt Schools..in UK its a MAJOR Language as well....AS long as we have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...PUNJABI in GURMUKHI will live ON...

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

Very strange comments indeed. No one can deny that for saving Punjabi language ,Gurmukhi script is vital but I somewhat differ with your views that it is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only saving Punjabi, Gurmukhi being the script of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not conclude that the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in Punjabi language.

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

There are several dialects in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji different from Punjabi Dialect. This is important to understand.

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

How we have transliterated Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in English .Here the script is not English script but Roman Script why?

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

One can write even English language in Gurmukhi script. The beauty of Gurmukhi script is that most of the languages on Indian Sub continent can be written in Gurmukhi or Devnagri script .

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

One can veryfy that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written in Devnagri script is the same as in Gurmukhi script .

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji although the script is Gurmukhi but the grammar is that of SANSKRIT pattern. That is how the grammar of Gurmukhi script differs from the grammar of Gurmukhi script for Punjabi language.
We are totally ignoring this aspect of Gurmukhi script in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that for Punjabi language.

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

Since we apply grammar of Punjabi language to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we are unable to get to the true understanding of the messages .
Prakash.s.Bagga

Click to expand...

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

Devnagree script already existed in Guru jis time....and IF devnagree is perfect ?? as stated...and adequate..its strange why Guru Ji took the trouble to stress on GURMUKHI SCRIPT...a script which necessitated so much extra effort ...introduction..teaching..spreading..usage.... Imho Guru ji found Devnagree to be INADEQUATE....and INCOMPLETE for the purpose of GURBANI. Thats why it was discarded...in favour of new GURMUKHI.

There is NO "English script"...the script is "Roman". Same script also for FRENCH...and a few other languages..in Europe. So a person may recognise the ABC..but if he only knows ENGLISH..and the language used is FRENCH..he wont get a word...just as many here can "recognize" the word - PISAU...and even pronounce it correctly..because they know and cna read "ENGLISH"....but since the Language is Malay ..they wont know what the word means...(it means Knife).MALAY is another Language that uses the ROMAN SCRIPT ( although the more fundamental muslim malays like to use MODIFIED URDU called JAWI to write Malay) as they feel the roman alphabet is westernised...while the others say the Jawi is Arabic..so whats Malay about THAT ??.

2. The Gurmukhi SCRIPT is the ONLY PERFECT one for PUNJABI. No other script comes close.....and Gurmukhi survives today only because its used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. ALL the FONTS used for Gurmukhi were for the purpose of writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji GURBANEE....and almost ALL the effort was undertaken PRIVATELY....with neither the SGPC nor the Indian or Punjab govts showing any interest/input of resources...Sardar THIND did this monumental task all alone way back in the 1990s...only NOW are others coming in....because NOW GURMUKHI is on the Net and making waves...its too large to "ignore" even Microsoft has Fonts for PUNJABI...embedded in its OPS.
3. Simply said..Gurmukhi is script and Punjabi is Language for which GURMUKHI was CREATED....there is no Gurmukhi langauge and there is no punjabi script...BUT the TWO are inseparable....

Click to expand...

Ambarsaria said:

Prakash.s.bagga ji I have some comments and these are not necessarily complementary of your positions.


You have absolutely no right let alone should be shameful of thought other than that “Punjabi with Gurmukhi script is also what Guru ji gave us as part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji”.



Prakash.S.Bagga ji Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses a standard dialect (also known as a standardized dialect or "standard language") as per Guru ji’s use of it and the writings as adapted and included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by them.

You or anyone else at this juncture are not going to set any new rules for it. The Punjabi language with Gurmukhi script comes from them and as they saw, developed and penned it.

The Guru ji saw it fit to recognize and hence let it be included, some vocabulary from other languages based on writings of others, but with phonetics and meanings well understood in the Punjab and Punjabi of the day.


Prakash.S.Bagga ji to transliterate is , “to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet”. You should know by your many failed and imaginary attempts at transliteration by now.

You have uniquely used upper and lower case only without phonetic accents as by Dr. Thind to represent “Onkur”, “Dulankar”, “Sihari”, “Bihari”, etc. Even a child will tell you that you cannot transliterate Punjabi into English using just upper and lower case letters and associated sounds. There are not enough sounds that can be so created to represent without phonetic accents.

Your statement is epitome of nonsense. Can you review the above two sets of scripts with non-100% 1:1 mapping and recognize that what you are posing is simply a falsehood and an insult to Gurmukhi script and Punjabi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One can make the constructs to sound close enough but not identical.

Punjabi script is not a subset (I hope you understand what is meant by set and subset) of Devnagri script and that will be the only way that Gurmukhi based Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could have been possibly transliterated into Devnagri. Hence any Devnagri stuff may appear close but it is an insult to claim what you do above.


Prakash.S.Bagga ji here you go with more nonsense by inventing new things to describe whether things are identical or not. You use the phrase “the grammar is that of SANSKRIT pattern”. I find it derogatory of you to state this. If you went to a good school, learned good Punjabi taught by a good teacher, the word Sanskrit would not even need to be mentioned.

The Punjabi and Gurmukhi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji self stands. There is use of words or vocabulary from other languages which become by inclusion part of Punjabi/Gurmukhi that our Guru ji gave us. This is how languages evolve.


Prakash.S.Bagga ji since you are insulting every Sikh who only learned Punjabi with Gurmukhi script, let me give you back some of your own treatment.

You sir are a “Star” in your own weird mind with expertise in nothing in this area but simply misleading. I don’t know your agenda but it cannot be positive given your insulting generalizations as flagged above. I suggest you rinse your mind and get rid of Devnagri/Hindi and Sanskrit garbage out our of your head and really know what Gurmukhi and Punjabi stand for. You will then realize how they are sufficient to understand the gift and messages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji given to us by our Guru ji.

Sat Sri Akal.

Click to expand...

Luckysingh said:

Prakash ji

I, like many others out there am trying to get better grips with gurmukhi translations and transliterations.
In all honesty I have reviewed your statements many times whilst trying to translate for SELF.
I'm sorry to say that I, like others have only gained more confusion and misunderstanding. It always seems that you are 'playing' with the languages and playing them against each other.
Don't get me wrong, I have tried to differentiate between your given words with and without your style of upper and lowercase letters for different phonetics and sounds BUT STILL- I find NO difference in the message that I GET from Guru ji's writings. Maybe this is just me, but I hope this is what the Guru ji intended.


You keep saying that if we don't apply your method then -we will not understand the true meaning of gurbani- This precise phrase of yours, has got me a little worried at times, I'm sure we all question if we have made the wrong interpretation as I certainly do.
BUT- I have now realised that Guru ji's bani is written as such that a true understanding is unique for each and every one of us in terms of the 'message' we perceive for it's 'application'.

I myself have been trying to to do my own translations recently and it's not easy. The IMPORTANT thing that I have learnt whilst pursuing this is that --

-I may rearrange some words or include extra ones in my translation, but the overall essence of the shabads always results to the SAME. So , no matter how I go about in a circle playing with vocab, the end result or essence of Guru Ji's message is always the same BUT applied personally and therefore differently to each one of us.
I'm not sure if this is just coincidence or fluke but this has been my result.

Again, it is like the hukamnamma that everyone will hear at the same time. Now, the essence of the message will be strong and the same as Guru ji intended-BUT, every one of us will apply it to our personal selves in a unique way. That's why everyone always accepts and likes the hukamnama to a high and personal degree.

This is the beauty of Gurbani. I find if I'm trying to break it down too much to gain more understanding, then I am in fact, sometimes destroying the true essence and drifting away from what Guruji intended in the original source.---*dangerous*---
What I mean is that personally, I feel I have to be careful that I don't get carried away in translating single words or lines that it ends up tampering the whole shabad and message.
The gurmukhi script and punjabi as it is- is enough for us to perceive the gift of messages inscribed as Guru ji intended.

We can kid or fool ourselves into thinking that the word of the shabad means something else because of the way it is written.
This can be dangerous especially if we fool ourselves into perceiving a totally different message. The words of the guru as they are written, is how he intended we read them.
Wether I use GuRoo, GuRu and GuR, the message and essence of shabad is still the same. It should make no difference to the 'true' understanding and to me -IT DOESN'T, thankfully.
I find by playing with these words, I am more likely to drift away rather than get closer to the true message.
The GIFT of gurbani and shabads is NOT just the language and words used for understanding. BUT, it's the words used to send the MESSAGE to each one of us.
So, the GIFT is the MESSAGE.

An example that most of us can relate to is listening to raagis doing kirtan. I notice that some raagis focus too much on the sound and pitch of the words(as is rightfully required in music) that they forget what the true message of the shabad actually was. They seem more focused on timing and music to get the correct chords and notes.-This is good, there is nothing wrong with this as it is required to produce good music at the end of the day.
BUT, my point is you will ALL have heard the difference when a different raagi will do the exact same shabad, but he is feeling the tue message and essence of the whole shabad that he is singing. This feeling and expression can be felt within him and expressed to all of us, not in the way he carries the notes or anything, but the true 'vibe' of the message will be felt just in the words.
Me and the rest of the audience will immediately feel the gift of this shabad just because his feeling and expression is IN the message AS WELL as the chords and notes.The sangat will say that he sings from the heart and you can feel it, not just hear it.

This difference that we can all notice and sense is what is inside the 'gift of a message'.
This is how certain raagis give us more 'anand', even though their musical style is the same as others, but these others don't quite seem to touch us in the same way.

This precise 'gift of the message' is what is more important and what the guruji intended. We should be carefull that we don't tamper with the message, regardless of how we try to get the words and translations across.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

Click to expand...

prakash.s.bagga said:

Well this point is very important for appreciation that Gurmukhi script is much perfect than Devnagri script and for that reason Gurmukhi script is perfect and ideal for Gurbanee.

Therefore we should have cocern for Gurmukhi script so far for understanding of Gurbanee matters.But let us be fair, are we doing this sincererly?

one can see that according to Punjabi grammar which is taught in all
schools all over the world there one would not find the grammar of the Gurbanee words like GuRoo-GuRu and GuR, whereas if you apply SANSKRIT Grammar you get to know clear grammar of these three words GuRoo..GuRu and GuR.(This is the basic difference between Pujabi Grammar and Gurbanee Grammar)
It is very crucial to know the grammar of these three words for correct understanding of Gurbanee That is what I have my personal realisation of past 35 years with Gurbanee.Some or Many may disagree with this but the fact of Gurbanee can not be changed.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Click to expand...