Need Guidance In Understanding A Line From SGGS

hps · May 3, 2007

Dear friends/respondents

The following line appears in SGGS.

khu kbIr AKr duie BwiK ] (329-18, gauVI, Bgq kbIr jI)
Says Kabeer, chant the two letters of the Lord's Name - Raa Maa.

The English Translation appears to be slightly different than what appears on the face.Should one take the 'Naam' as 'Rama'.? To me the line , as tanslated, seems to be skewed.Is it a correct translation by some learned author and further is it ok. if one starts chanting 'Rama' instead of 'waheguru' in the light of the translation.

Would be ever grateful for the clarification.Kindly correct me in my inference as well.
Regards
hps

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Cool · May 3, 2007

Dear Hps ji,
A nice question needs a similar reply.I have made an effort to explain 'Naam' and its relevance in the context of Sikh religion.It will answer your queries as well that you have on some other posts.
Your observation ,on the face of it, seems to be correct.The inference is ok.However,it is the Bani of Kabeer ji.He might have taken recourse to the naam of 'Rama'. In the case of sikhs the general reference is understood to be 'waheguru' and some suggest that even 'satnam' would be ok.There is no standardisation of 'naam' as such.Even 'waheguru' is not stated to be 'Naam'.It is in practice though.I am quoting below extracts of an Article and hope you will like it.God has many names and he can be remembered by any name.Read it and enjoy it. I have removed the material that contained reference to some researches. [I shall send you that article, if required.You may send a private message giving me your mail id]
In nut-shell
The Word, or the Divine Name, is the indwelling revealer of God. It is the cosmic Principle, the cause of all Creation and identified with the Holy Spirit and Creative Transformative Power of God. A Divine Name is the Divine Essence in one or the other of its infinite aspects. The Divine Essence is the One Universal Substance and is identical with Absolute Reality.

In Sikhism, philosophically, an identity of spirit is clearly recognised, based on the concept of the Logos, between the Divine Name (NAAM), or the Word of God, the spirit of the prophets and Gurus, and the Divine presence or the Light of God.
Naam-The Language of Divine Power
According to Guru Nanak everything in the universe is created by the power of Divine Name (NAAM) and without the Divine Name there is no way (The Japji, Pauri 19). He explains that all the visible forms are held by the Divine Name; everything takes its rise from the Divine Name and is again absorbed in it. The Divine Name is the essence of the four Vedas and is the repository of the True Reality. The Divine Name is synonymous with the Divine Word or Sabad.
God is the Ultimate Reality which has innumerable Names assigned to Him and the Names are identical with His being. There is no difference between His Being and His Name. The Name, Form and the essential Nature of God are the same; there is no difference between them – all the three are conscious and sublime bliss by nature. Guru Nanak says –

Hearkening to the Name bestows
Truth, divine wisdom, contentment,
To bathe in the joy of the Name
Is to bathe in the holy places. The Japji, Pauri 10.
Name and Potency
Name is the potency of God, who, in the pre-creation stage, existed without a Name. It is the agency through which God Creates. It is the spirit of God and the enlightened and purifier of the soul. Name has created everything in this universe.
Guru Nanak emphasizes on the recitation of the Divine Name (NAAM) which stands for God and His Creative Transformative Power and is the most powerful and effective means of attaining identity with the Divine Being. For attuning with God, Simran, or remembrance, and repeating of the Divine Name, or invocation, enables the disciple to reach that stage of absorption where he finds himself in His presence; it is a simple yet very efficacious method for internal spiritual growth of the disciple and supplies inexhaustible stores of energy and vitality for concentration and paves the way for reaching the Lord – the ultimate objective of one’s life.
All names to stand for God
All these names stand for the same God. To these Names of God more Names have been added by the Sikh Gurus, such as, Piara, Pritam, Mitter, Sajjan, Satguru, Waheguru, etc..
God belongs to all religions. He does not belong to any particular religion. This broader outlook of Guru Nanak led him to the conception of a secular God, and the rejection of a sectarian one. In the Sukhmani (Ashtpadi, 3, Pauri 8), Guru Arjun Dev affirms –

Of all Religions the best Religion is:

To utter the Holy Name with adoration,
And to do good deeds.

Waheguru and significance to Sikhs
However, now Waheguru – Wondrous Lord – has assumed a special significance as a name of God for the Sikhs as, for instance, Allah is for the Muslims, Ram and Ishwar for the Hindus. This development took place much after the formation of the Khalsa. Wahe-guru is not so much a name of God as the expression of the entire feeling of elation which man gets from an aesthetic experience of nature and of the cosmology.
Guru Nanak frequently uses the word ‘Sabad’ in place of the Divine Name. Sabad, or the Divine Word, is believed to have descended directly from the Divine Spirit, in which the Divine Knowledge is embodied and is the power and potency of God Himself. Therefore, Sabad, the Divine Word, the Divine Name and NAAM are synonymous with the True Reality. Says Guru Nanak, in Asa-di-Var:

God created Himself
And assumed a Name
Second, besides Himself,
He created Nature.
Seated in Nature He watches
With delight what He creates. Rag Asa (SGGS-463)
If the Divine Word of the Guru remains in the heart of a disciple, it is believed, he is always free from any kind of fear, anxiety and pain; he remains indifferent to joy or grief and maintains his equanimity under the most stressful and trying conditions.
Word, or the Divine Name.
It is the way of His expression. The phenomenal world is the attribute with which God is described. The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world. Besides, it is through these attributes that God manifests His creative activities in the world. Therefore everything of this world is an aspect of the Divine Name, or the Word, to which it owes its existence.There is no value that is more valuable than the Name of God. The Divine Name is a priceless wealth, it is eternal and True. It cannot be destroyed by fire, death or any other means.Help youself with any type of 'Naam' the end result should be 'deliverance'.Hope you will enjoy this and should dispell your fears.
I have taken every care to check this for errors.However, english is not my first language.Hence the errors may be excused.
yours
cool
E&OE

spnadmin · May 3, 2007

Cool ji

Everything you say works for me.

hps · May 4, 2007

Thank you Sir, for your kind explanation.I have some doubts that are posted in some other thread.Would you be kind enough to let me have the understanding of those as well. These are all related to Naam and Shabad.
Regards
hps

Cool · May 4, 2007

Hi hps ji...ssa ji.
I would be willing to answer all your doubts.However, I am not any expert on these things but I do read.You may kindly put your questions here in this post itself.I shall make an attempt to the best of my knowledge.
thanks
coolwhspr

hps · May 4, 2007

Respected Cool ji

I am giving below my doubts as have been posted in some other thread and that I have not understood.You may kindly explain whenever you have the time.
What exactly is the meaning of 'Shabad' and 'Naam'.?These words have appeared in the entire SGGS at many places.Kindly expand for the benefit of the viewers.It has appeared at so many places that it seems that 'Shabad' is not to mean as we ordinarily interpret.imilarly 'Naam' appears to have special meaning.

"ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ]

Those who serve Him find the reality about Him (the proof of His existence), they are accepted gracefully at His Dargah and are liberated from the bondage."

The above is quoted for the benefit of discussion.

1.What is the exact meaning of 'who serve HiM'.What kind of service will be qualified to enable one to find the reality about HIM.Is the service to be made in some physical form like charity to poor or remembering HIM.KIndly explain?It appears that HE is to be served .Is it so.?Please help.

Thanks and regards.

hps

simpy · May 4, 2007

Respected cool ji ,

can you explain the following line more elaborately-

Cool said:
The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world.

by reading through all you wrote- the use of word 'only' in this line- makes the whole theory of yours fall apart, respected coolwhspr ji.

what about- Anaam, Niranjan, alekh, abhekh, Nirankaar, and many more attributes (in seen & unseen and outword & inward expression) .................................

sorry for the interruption..... ....... .........
to me neech it(this line) sounds exactly like Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's phylosophy..........
And 'GRACE OF GOD' aspect is totally missing in the whole writting of yours, respected coolwhspr ji, what happened to that part. as that is the most importanr one, without this aspect-NOTHING HAPPENS.........

Sikh phylosophy is neither totally equivalent to the Greek Concept of Logos, some major differences do exist between the two concepts. you may call it the nearest equivalent........
Sikh phylosophy cannot be called entirely based on Logos Concept......

Dear and Respected hps Ji,

these are your words from thread - Naam Simran and Shabads, you posted a couple of days ago....

hps said:
Hi..friends.
Gurbani is as simple as it is authored and compiled.We make it complicated ourselves.if we devote sometime, we are likely to understand most of it.there will always be some doubts about the meanings of some verses.There may also be some difficulty in integrating the contents with the contexts.well ,it shall remain as it ios comp[pilation.Same words have been used to employ different meanings at different places in Gurbani.
I also carried the notion that we are to understand the entire gurubani before we practice and integrate the concepts.I have stopped doing that and do my job with whatever little knowledge I possess.I think no one can dispell the doubts of another person. We shall do better by interpreting things in our own ways.It is like fighting your own battles. No one is better for one thinks that one understands better than another.It is not sne can never be perfect.
It is only the meditation that can help us and can bring nearer to HIm.It is the essence of the entire Gurbani.We have to make efforts to purge and purify ourselves to attain HIs blessings.That seems to be the entire purpose of Gurbani.Remember HIm and do your job as is prescribed.It is not very useful to stick to the meaning of someone else.It is second hand knowledge.
Atleast I have stopped taking advice of others in the matter of SGGS.
Yu will also do justice to yourself by doing the same.Does it matter if we do not and cannot make out some parts of Gurbani.I think it does not matter at all.Just meditate on His Naam.You may call HIm by any name.
Regards to all.
Bhul Chuk Maaf.
hps

no wonder you agreeing with all what respected Coolwhspr ji is saying even after declaring you have stoppped taking advice......

forgive me please

Cool · May 4, 2007

Limitations of Language in expression in Gurbani
Hi Hps ji,

I shall take up the questions that you have posed to me.It may kindly be noted that all of us are essentially students of Bani. We keep on learning and learning till we live.

Limitations on account of language: How's and Why's
What I percieve of a particular line may not be perceived the same by other.The simple reason for this can be explained by the fact that our knowledge of the language whether the first language or even our mother tongue is too little to effectively convery our thoughts into words or I should say that no language is too rich that it can vehiculate our thoughts in such a fashion that the interpretor or the reader of the script can debug the exact meaning that was thought to be conveyed.It is not a simple task at all.Be it English or Punjabi we are handicapped on account of these two reasons.
Diofference of perceptions
Even if want to convey the color of an apple we cannot do so exactly as an apple and its color cannot be described as it is not uniform over the entire body of the apple.We ,thus, cannot convey that we want to convey.The second difficulty arises on the fact of the non-standardisation of the vocabulary.In different parts of the worlds the same word can carry different shades and hence the meaning.There is every possibility that what has been modulated by the sender is not properly demodulated while downloading the message that is supposed to be conveyed.We have to convey our thoughts within this limitation that is put upon .If we were to sit face to face the things would have been simpler.
Limitations should not stop us from discussing
But then limitations should not govern us and guide us in our endeavours to convey that is to be conveyed. One should be armed with sufficient vocabulary so that we can atleast continue to exchange our thoughts.
lack of appreciation of Dialect
I have been prompted to write this that we are trying to discuss and explain something that was authored about five centuries ago.There may be difference of opinions on this count. However, the essential truth does not vary.Gurbani is authored in Gurmukhi lipi.However, the language is admixture of many types of dialects of the time.Hence the difficulty. What I interpret of particular may not be ,necessarily, acceptable to you. But then it does not empower you with a right to diacard the same. There will be ,atleast, meeting of minds on the essentials.Nor should one stick one's guns and be adament.We can differ in a manner that we are still friends and leave some scope of mutual discussion. There is no scope of an argument in these kinds of discussions.No one is superior in the matter of interpretations. It is only a theoretical knowledge that we are likely to share not the practical knowledge.We have our own expressions. If you differ with me you have all the rights to differ and let any one else also differ.It is not to effect you or me.We are all in a democratic set up and are all discussing something that has been respected by all intellectuals and philosphers.However, the language of Sri Guru Granth sahib cannot be debugged by ay individual.
It is not the monopoly of any body and none can ever say that.One would be foolish even to admit this.As 'bani' has been said to be 'Guru' in our scriptures and 'Guru' being ,something,beyond explanations and descriptions I have all the presumptions and presuppositions that we should peacefully carry on with our task of understanding each other's point of view and increase our visible power and power to landscape the dry terrain of our grey cells that lie in the organ called brain which is also have a direct linkage with our so called mind.Our intellect is primarily governed by our mind power and interpreted in consonance by our brain that has 12 billion tiny cells.Each cell is interconnected with the other thru synpase.Such is our wonderful body and such a wonderful is our creator.If HE has given us such organs that are beyond description it leads to the fact that man made things are likely to be far from perfection.My language may have hurt someone.It is none of mine or someone's fault.It is always like this only.It is just like explaining of an elephant by the five blind persons.None acclaimed better knowledge of the elephant as they perceived that part to be an elephant that they touched and felt. Similarly our knowledge is so limited that we cannot interpret Gurbani in exactly the same fashion as was intended to have been authored when it was authored.There are practical difficulties. But one does make an attempt in one's humble manner.
Lack of early Translations of scriptures
These difficulties have amplified on account of the fact that there is not proper translation of scriptures that should have been done at the time when it was authored.things would have been simpler if some had taken the effort about five centuries ago. In any case there is a problem area and we should all recognise this.Hence that what one write may not mean the same that the author intended to have been meant.Hence there has to be in built margin of error aand benefit of doubt to be given to the person. In all humility I should have done this to anyone.In fact one should stop fault finding approach that some of my friend do adopt.This is not a school and none is superior to another even if one believes it to be so.

The best way is to avoid fault finding in the field of religion or sprituality as both do mingle at some point or the other.

I shall start with this background only with a clear understanding that fault finding is not the pre rogative that anyone can have on account of any misconception that one carries.It is may not be tolerable to some human being.

Questions asked

"What exactly is the meaning of 'Shabad' and 'Naam'.?These words have appeared in the entire SGGS at many places.Kindly expand for the benefit of the viewers.It has appeared at so many places that it seems that 'Shabad' is not to mean as we ordinarily interpret.Similarly 'Naam' appears to have special meaning. "
I shall revert back to your question after sometime if there is no intermittent interruption.It will require some home work and I am very grateful to you for providing me an opportunity of learning and revising my concepts.Pl. carry on with your meditation ,that is more important than theory.
kindly excuse me for mistakes . I shall edit it tomorrow,if it is feasible.I take yoour leave now.
Coolwhspr

simpy · May 4, 2007

Respected coolwhspr Ji,

very kind words,
FYI- Base Meaning of Gurbani doesn't change, One cannot say that Guru's Phylosophy is based on Logos, beacuse he/she thought so. Waheguru is God- can we change that truth?
Guru is God, Gurbani is Nirankaar, All the aspects of God described in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot be changed, ONLY WORDS CHANGE according to Language. BUT EVERY LANGUAGE HAS SOMTHING, may not be exact but something(some word) there that can be used.

Nobody is stopping you to post your views, but questions will be asked and explanations may also be given when something doesn't appear to be according to Gurmat..... one must be ready to share others opinion, when sharing his/her own opinion on a public forum.

We are humans and are talking in HUMAN LANGUAGE. WATER REMAINS WATER- doesn't matter what language we speak, respected coolwhspr ji.....

as none of my previous questions were answered, i am humbly repeating them once again:

can you explain the following line more elaborately-

Cool said:
The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world.

by reading through all you wrote- the use of word 'only' in this line- makes the whole theory of yours fall apart, respected coolwhspr ji.

what about- Anaam, Niranjan, alekh, abhekh, Nirankaar, and many more attributes (in seen & unseen and outword & inward expression) .................................

sorry for the interruption..... ....... .........
to me neech it(this line) sounds exactly like Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's phylosophy..........
And 'GRACE OF GOD' aspect is totally missing in the whole writting of yours, respected coolwhspr ji, what happened to that part. as that is the most importanr one, without this aspect-NOTHING HAPPENS.........

Sikh phylosophy is neither totally equivalent to the Greek Concept of Logos, some major differences do exist between the two concepts. you may call it the nearest equivalent........
Sikh phylosophy cannot be called entirely based on Logos Concept......

i may humbly ask more questions based on the above post later, as these ones are answered.....

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

kaur-1 · May 4, 2007

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
Respected cool ji ,

can you explain the following line more elaborately-

by reading through all you wrote- the use of word 'only' in this line- makes the whole theory of yours fall apart, respected coolwhspr ji.

what about- Anaam, Niranjan, alekh, abhekh, Nirankaar, and many more attributes (in seen & unseen and outword & inward expression) .................................

sorry for the interruption..... ....... .........
to me neech it(this line) sounds exactly like Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's phylosophy..........
And 'GRACE OF GOD' aspect is totally missing in the whole writting of yours, respected coolwhspr ji, what happened to that part. as that is the most importanr one, without this aspect-NOTHING HAPPENS.........

Sikh phylosophy is neither totally equivalent to the Greek Concept of Logos, some major differences do exist between the two concepts. you may call it the nearest equivalent........
Sikh phylosophy cannot be called entirely based on Logos Concept......

Dear and Respected hps Ji,

these are your words from thread - Naam Simran and Shabads, you posted a couple of days ago....

no wonder you agreeing with all what respected Coolwhspr ji is saying even after declaring you have stoppped taking advice......

forgive me please

Surinder Bhenji, Cool ji's article post is from Sikhreview

Naam: The Language of Divine Power

by a "Ravi M. Chopra"

I also agree with your comment "Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's philosophy.........."

One has to be very careful of what one reads on the www.

Cool · May 4, 2007

Respected Surinder kaur ji,
SSA
A lot more has to come on this topic.Kindly wait for some time till I am on this thread with hps ji. I would kindly suggest you to make out your questions, enlist them properly as to what exactly you want to know.I shall take up these questions and shall let it be known. You should not be jumping out of your shoes while asking a question.I have to take care of the basic purpose of the thread i.e. as has been put forward by hps ji .I shall quote from your post that it shall be difficult for me if an educated person like you starts crying from the roof top.Further these questions are very basics. I would recommend that you read the Books from the SGPC publications.I do refer to them myself.These are really helpful.I do not know where you live so that I could have suggested you the place where to buy from.

sincerely
Coolwhspr
P.S.
Reward of patience is always good.I do Hope you shall bear with me.It is your choice read it and follow it or skip it. You are free to start a thread of your own and you may invite me for one to one discussion. I shall look into it.
Had your question been so important I would have given it due weightage.As it is not so, i am constrained to admit that I shall take up the questions, if you put them and enlist them properly for my perusal.Rest assured a lot more is coming.Please wait.I reassure you that your doubts shall be clearly removed before this thread is over.
coolwhspr

simpy · May 4, 2007

Respected coolwhspr ji

endless thanks to you for not responding to my questions.

please cool down. With God's Grace this neech is totally aware of Logos concept. so asked you the question, you choose not to answer, no problems. my question is important, as it points towards the basic difference. and by not responding to it- it makes it clear in me neech's understanding that you are not much aware of what you writting.....

anyways you go on with your explanations. but as something will go against Gurmat please expect some questions, as if no true sikh speakup for it, who will????
In this case of LOGOS CONCEPT, yes it means Word, fine but when we go into the details, the basic thing that is different is Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan also believed that Realization IS ACHIEVED BY HIS NADAR ONLY. this fact is totally missing from LOGOS concept. Same way there are some other issues aswell. So Dear and Respected Scholar Ji, please practice patience, while you read and explore something and you teach to others.
And you are telling me about SGPC, several times it had happened that SGPC released a book then later they had to ban it, they announced decisions and then they had to change them, may be there are books talking about LOGOS, suggest which ones, i will go over them and we will see, we can suggest it to SGPC if the books are saying that Sikh Phylosophy is based on LOGOS THEORY completely, i can expain what basic differences are, and there are some major ones. May be the writer was not paying attention to other aspects of GOD, while writting that book, and SGPC could not notice that either, WE ARE HUMANS, mistakes can happen.......

you can still refer to the books, these days there are online libraraies, that can provide any book to any body(members), SO WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM AT ALL....

and any book can get shipped from anywhere in the world within a matter of days ....

AND ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING ME NEECH HAVE NOTICED- PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY THOUGH, IT MAY NOT BE IMPORTANT FOR OTHERS: i think both of you respected hps ji and respected coolwhspr ji went to the same school to learn English as both of you in your English writting don't use spaces between sentences very often.....

hps Ji said:
To me the line , as tanslated, seems to be skewed.Is it a correct translation by some learned author and further is it ok. if one starts chanting 'Rama' instead of 'waheguru' in the light of the translation.

hps Ji said:
Would be ever grateful for the clarification.Kindly correct me in my inference as well.

Cool Ji said:
A lot more has to come on this topic.Kindly wait for some time till I am on this thread with hps ji. I would kindly suggest you to make out your questions, enlist them properly as to what exactly you want to know.I shall take up these questions and shall let it be known. You should not be jumping out of your shoes while asking a question.I have to take care of the basic purpose of the thread i.e. as has been put forward by hps ji .I shall quote from your post that it shall be difficult for me if an educated person like you starts crying from the roof top.Further these questions are very basics. I would recommend that you read the Books from the SGPC publications.I do refer to them myself.These are really helpful.I do not know where you live so that I could have suggested you the place where to buy from.

same style- Wow!!!!!!

forgive me please

hps · May 5, 2007

Dear Cool ji
SSA. ji.

Very many thanks for the beautiful post as above. I think the dust will settle within some days. I have gone through with dismay as to how someone is spoiling the peace of this thread. In any case this is not important for me .You may answer me when you are at peace. I never expected this kind of response from the educate persons on this web-site else I would not have been to this site. It is a great distraction. NO one can force anyone to answer. If one has to ask some question for the removal of doubt one should make a request in civil society. I cannot say as to what will one do if one does not fall within the parameters of the civil. Of what use is the learning that does not bring about humility that is an ornament of the practicing sikh and of good human beings. It is one’s culture and upbringing that is material.

If a person knows something and is still makes a nuisance one can draw some conclusions as to the intentions. However, it should not be the cause of any trouble as It is a great sin to break one's vow that one takes before coming to this world. Wealth and youth are transient and only love of God and His adorations are stable. The acrobatic mind can be controlled by making it to climb the feet of the Lord by constant simran. In this world HIS divine name is real. With one-pointed mind, one should meditate on the One Lord, and the doubts of your mind will be dispelled. Forever and ever, worship and adore Him. Day and night, do not forget Him. One whose destiny is so pre-ordained, obtains the Lord of the Universe as his Companion. Even the ungrateful ones are cherished by God . He is forever the Forgiver. It is also true that God Himself acts, and causes others to act; everything is in His Hands. This is the general teaching that one gets from SGGS. Some one are always disturbing the peace but it has been stated that there is no use of bathing at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, when the filth of stubborn pride is within the mind? The Treasure of the NAAM is acquired, and the mind reaps the lasting profit. If He grants His Grace, then we obtain it. We cannot find it by our own efforts. It is all that I have learnt so far about the ‘Naam’ and ‘shabad’. You have already explained that shabad and Naam can be, at many places, be deemed to be used in exactly similar fashion. Rest is the contextual usage. All that I wanted to know is clear. I have not to become a teacher of Gurbani. Whenever I am in doubt about the interpretation of a particular word I shall refer it to you.
Respected Cool ji you may like to answer the questions only when the dust has settled. In the meantime I shall keep on studying SGGS and come up to with my doubts. You are not bound to answer anyone who is simply a nuisance and is not a positive contruibutor to the thread.

That is the essence of the scriptures, and that is a good omen, by which one comes to chant the Name of the Lord. Offer your prayers to Him, who shall unite you with the Creator. In any case you have already explained the meaning of ‘Shabad’ in a beautiful manner. I have learnt that one should Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.

I have gone through first 350 pages of SGGS only and do read about 10 pages or so daily so that I can integrate the concepts. I need not discuss further unless you intend to do so and explain with the help of some lines of SGGS.

With Warm Regards.
hps

Respected Cool ji.

My message has wrongly been placed as above Surinder ji's post .I do not know as to how to rectify this mistake. You may kindly start as and when you feel like.
Regards
hps

hps · May 5, 2007

Kaur-1 ji,
I am indebted to you foi giving me the reference to the magazine that has dealt with the artilce about the power of 'Naam' .It has been of great use to me. Thanks once again.Atleast I am now acquainted with the concept of Logos and Kalme as Muslims call it. Some where in the translation of SGGS it has appeared in the form of Sound current.
Thanks once again for your kindness.
Regards
hps

simpy · May 5, 2007

hps said:
I think the dust will settle within some days. I have gone through with dismay as to how someone is spoiling the peace of this thread. In any case this is not important for me .You may answer me when you are at peace. I never expected this kind of response from the educate persons on this web-site else I would not have been to this site. It is a great distraction. NO one can force anyone to answer. If one has to ask some question for the removal of doubt one should make a request in civil society. I cannot say as to what will one do if one does not fall within the parameters of the civil. Of what use is the learning that does not bring about humility that is an ornament of the practicing sikh and of good human beings. It is one’s culture and upbringing that is material.

If a person knows something and is still makes a nuisance one can draw some conclusions as to the intentions. However, it should not be the cause of any trouble as It is a great sin to break one's vow that one takes before coming to this world.

endless thanks to you hps ji for your nice comments. this nuisance as stated by you, also seems like cannot cause any trouble(your own words). Sorry for the inconvenience though. As i stated before- we are on a public forum, so how when something doesn't seem right you expect no humble interruptions. anyways that is your choice to think whatever.
for your conveinence your next question is posted down here(which you say got obstructed by my post)

hps said:
Respected Cool ji

I am giving below my doubts as have been posted in some other thread and that I have not understood.You may kindly explain whenever you have the time.
What exactly is the meaning of 'Shabad' and 'Naam'.?These words have appeared in the entire SGGS at many places.Kindly expand for the benefit of the viewers.It has appeared at so many places that it seems that 'Shabad' is not to mean as we ordinarily interpret.imilarly 'Naam' appears to have special meaning.

"ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ]

Those who serve Him find the reality about Him (the proof of His existence), they are accepted gracefully at His Dargah and are liberated from the bondage."

The above is quoted for the benefit of discussion.

1.What is the exact meaning of 'who serve HiM'.What kind of service will be qualified to enable one to find the reality about HIM.Is the service to be made in some physical form like charity to poor or remembering HIM.KIndly explain?It appears that HE is to be served .Is it so.?Please help.

Thanks and regards.

hps

just a note- this is done just to bring general awareness Respected hps ji and Respected coolwhspr ji, nothing is against you in particular. There is a lot of stuff on the www. that may not be according to Gurmat, as kaur ji brought up the article information. Just be careful. Please continue.....

GuruPyaara · May 5, 2007

Thanks Surinder ji and kaur-1 ji for clarifying the above disscussion, Sorry cool ji you made that very confusing in the end of your first post. After reading Surinder ji, everything cleared out. Thanks once again Surinder Ji.

hps · May 7, 2007

Respected Surinder Kaur Ji.

RE: please serialize your doubts and questions.

You seem to be associated with the management of this site and you are changing and editing the posts of mine and as well of Mr. cool. This you should not do especially in the threads where you yourself are a seeker and have to get your doubts clarified. You have edited most of my posts.Please stop doing this in future if you want participation. The practice is unethical.

Why I started this thread independently

1.I had started this thread on account of your tacitunity and you did not reply to my posts at all in a satisfactory manner.

Your comments were full of Sarcasm, may be you have a fair knowledge of Gurbani. It does not make you a superior human being at all. It makes you knowledgeable, may be, only. I do not want to discuss anything from a person who has taken this to her head and possess strong ego. Anyway some people are not cut to see that others do exist.

Mr. Cool has provided me valuable information. You are simply becoming a hindrance and taking out an opportunity for most of us to learn from Mr cool.

2. Non-co-operation and disturbance to the thread.

Inspite of the requests you have not serialized your questions.
Kindly serialize your doubts and as promised by him yoiuir questions will be answered. If you have a problem in serializing your questions, it is your problem and not mine.

3. Your Doubts : As perceived by me.

It is safe to presume that you know most of the things and are here to disturb the progress of the thread. I would again request you before abandoning this site to kindly let me know the following:

a.
What is against Sikhism in the above? It should be amplified in the above write ups.

b.In one of your earlier post you have said

“Waheguru is God- can we change that truth?”If it is your doubt please let me know. I will answer this in detail for your benefit and for the benefit of the others as well. Pl. Stop kidding like a babe.

c. Logos concept- something that I do not know and what is your doubt, please put in a sentence as to what is making you comfortable.
I do not think that SGGS contain anything about as to how to reach the pious ‘word’. However, if you have some documented reference that it is against Sikhism please let us know. Anything vaguely stated is likely to create doubt about something that is not yet fully developed in Sikh world.In any case everything happens as per HIS will or Nadar [ as you have stated to be alter name of God's Grace]

d. Why are you secretive about any site from which it is stated that material has been taken.? Kindly give the full address of the site unless it is of some Terrorists. Please feel free

I can answer your questions like ‘whether ‘“Waheguru is God- can we change that truth?”

I am not interested in logos as my purpose is served with the limited knowledge that has been imparted to me.However , if you are willing I shall start a new thread for your and my benefit and we will get many learned and serious people to discuss this.
Kindly change your focus.
No one is taking away your audience from you as you are an expert and authority on entireline of Sikhi and sikh philosphy.
Best wishes and Good day
hps

simpy · May 7, 2007

hps said:
Respected Surinder Kaur Ji.

RE: please serialize your doubts and questions.

You seem to be associated with the management of this site and you are changing and editing the posts of mine and as well of Mr. cool. This you should not do especially in the threads where you yourself are a seeker and have to get your doubts clarified. You have edited most of my posts.Please stop doing this in future if you want participation. The practice is unethical.

Respected hps ji,

i have not edited any body's posts at all.

MULTIPLE POSTS ARE MERGED TOGETHER, AS PER MANAGEMENT HAS GUIDED ME.

IT IS DONE ALL THE TIME, WHEN THERE ARE POSTS MADE BY SAME PERSON, Around ABOUT SAME TIME-ONE AFTER ANOTHER..........in a continous serial.

sorry about the Confusion

forgive me please

Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,

there are other people who were also confused and they got the things clarified after i posted my questions and explanations

GuruPyaara said:
Thanks Surinder ji and kaur-1 ji for clarifying the above disscussion, Sorry cool ji you made that very confusing in the end of your first post. After reading Surinder ji, everything cleared out. Thanks once again Surinder Ji.

forgive me please

Cool · May 7, 2007

NAAM and its significance in SGGS ji

The word ‘naam ‘ has appeared for about more than 2500 times as per the search engine of the site [http://www.srigranth.org]. This is a site that provides detailed downloads of SGGS and various translations. One may refer to it. If one starts analyzing from this point it can be calculated that ‘naam’ appears more than 1to 1.5 times on average per page of SGGS translation. It is, but natural, for anyone to find out the importance and significance of the term ‘naam’. In fact, to me, it appears that it is one of the most commonly used words in the SGGS English Translation. One can also find out the importance by finding out the usage of this word ‘naam’ on some other translations. Similarly in ‘Sentence By Sentence English Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib’ [Translation by: Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD Hand Made Books, 899 N. Wilmot, Suite C-2 Tucson, Arizona 85711, USA :All word databse making, text arrangement and formatting etc by: Kulbir Singh Thind, MD. ] the ‘naam ‘ has appeared for over 2500 times as well. It is abundantly clear that Guru Sahibaan has attached great significance to this aspect of religion. It is one of the important element of the Sikh religion. Even the various saints whose ‘Bani’ has been registered in SGGS has also used the ‘naam’ in their ‘bani’ quite frequently. The author does not claim to be any expert or analyst of Gurbani.. There is everypossibility that there may be some mistakes in this.I am spending quite a time on this and for me reading the sentences again and again is reading Gurbani.
Kindly enjoy this.

NAAM and definition SGGS

On the first reading it appears that there is no one sentence definition of the word ‘naam’ and rightly so. The plain reason is that the word is embedded in the line of a couplet or ashtpadis / lines that are spread over the entire SGGS ji. Author could not find the definition in this fashion. Some intellectuals may find though. I have done an exercise and would first like to confirm from others if there is any standard definition available to us even for academic purpose. Some commentators may provide a clue as to what should the ‘naam’ be in the context of Simran.

Analysis and Methodology employed.

Some commentators have offered some comments as per their interpretations. If one look at the translations that are available in soft copies one can make a list of the places where the word ‘ naam’ has been employed. It is the first exercise that I am doing for the purpose of analyzing the exact reference and the context in which this term has been employed. I don’t have the luxury of time at my disposal nor am I supposed to be carrying out research on ‘naam’. Let it be the job of some seeker or a student of Sikhism. However, it is intended that we shall all find out collectively the exact meaning even by making a reference to other commentators. I do not call anyone an expert for none can be so. Once has to arrive at the conclusion for oneself within the limitation the little presentation that is provided here as per my intellect and appreciation that He has bestowed on me. One can put up the doubt and the same would be taken up immediately, if found necessary, and /or will be dealt with at the end. I do not have any special expertise and hence I may not be able to answer at all some questions that may be abstract to me. The subject matter is not as simple as it looks on the first sight. In absence of any reference material and standard definition we shall be guided by the contextual usage of the term as employed at various places. There is no standard definition in the scriptures. I could not find the same hence I would be guided by the English translation of the line in the context of which the term ‘naam’ has been employed. Most importantly I even do not know as to what is the object of ‘simran’ should be.if you know the naam’ that the ‘bani’ refers to kindly let me know, I should stop there and then as the purpose of an humble servant would be served. The following article will be of interest to all those who are interested in the above subject. There is no other reason of its inclusion here.

The Power of the Shabad, Gurbani Kirtan & Naam Simran[1]
[ Bonus ]
In Siri Guru Granth Sahib, each Shabad has its own domain, power, ridhi (worldly riches), sidhi (spiritual power), and naunidhi (nine treasures). All occult powers are in the Shabad. The recitation of Shabad gives you the power to redeem the environments. Shabad is a part of the power of God, and when the Shabad merges in you, you become God.

The Lotus Feet of God is the Shabad of God. The sound itself will uplift you and take away the disease and sorrow from within you. Meditate on the Lotus Feet of God in your heart. The sound of the spirit is the Shabad. Decorate yourself with it. Shabad is the fountain of spirit. It will always keep you flowing and growing.

The neutral mind records the Shabad, the Truth. When your mind is freaking out, the Shabad automatically comes. The Shabad has the power to control you and your mind, otherwise there is no way you or your mind can be controlled. Shabad brings inner balance. The power of inner balance is the Shabad, and the power of the Shabad is inner balance.

When controlled, our minds can create great things, because the power of the mind is also very infinite. When disciplined, it can change the vibrations and the magnetic psyche of the earth. That is why we come before Siri Guru Granth Sahib and do kirtan. Kirtan is to change the magnetic psyche of the universe with the vibrations of the Word of the Guru, the Naad, so that we can enrich the self in ecstasy.

Gurbani Kirtan, when done correctly, adds more harmony to Gurbani, but when not done right can reverse the effect. Kirtan must be according to time, pure, straightforward, and the raag (musical mode) should be exact. It is a pure discipline. Everyone should participate and recite it in that discipline.

Naam Simran (continuous remembrance of God’s Name) is the preparation for Gurbani. You plow the ground, make the earth ready, and then you do Simran. Simran is Gurmantra (mantra given by the Guru). Khalsa is to recite "Wahe Guru", and a Sikh is to recite "Sat Naam". Sat Naam can elevate the consciousness of any person to Infinity, and Wahe Guru can bring the experience of that Infinity. Wa means Infinite, He means Thou, and Guru means Self. When chanted, it brings you very near to God. Sat Naam is a Panch Shabad (mantra containing five sounds). Saa means Infinity, Taa means birth, Naa means death and Maa means resurrection. Sat Naam is the Shabad in which you have superiority over God. God is a slave in the hands of the devotees. Sat Naam purifies the entire time and space, when you speak it once, it does not matter when. It is a superior self-power of God. God is re-membered by His actions. Naam Simran is a must to prepare for Gurbani to have its effect. It is the complete science of the Word and sound. It changes a human’s biological and psychological metabolism of his body, mind and soul.[ To be continued]

[1] (As explained by Siri Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji)
http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/sikhism.nsf/d9c75ce4db27be328725639a0063aecc/16dfec31f2d678ec872565b7007b3388!OpenDocument

Cool · May 7, 2007

The following are the doubts that were posted by hps ji in some of your other post.I am also posting it here so that you may have the oppurtunity of a better answer.Ofcourse, I shall not be able to answer this question in scientific manner as it cannot be possible for me.

'Why such an importance has been given to Naam.The above sounds an equally potent message and clear as well without the usage of Naam.I am supposed to remember HIM and not HIS name as I do not know by what name should I remember HIM. It can be 'Allah' as well.There is nothing wrong in this.As I am stuick up here I cannot proceed further. May be for you this is a simple question but for me it is an important question.Kindly explain as to what is the significance of 'Naam' in the context of remembering HIM or meditating.When one meditates one draws the picture of the object and not His name/Naam.Well the practice may differ.However, in majority of the cases this should be correct.

Is it simply because as we cannot see HIM that we have to identify HIM by some name.But even then giving name to 'nirankar' would be meaningless.As anything 'formless' cannot be encaged by its name, hence the doubt.How do I know HIS name.I do not know it.Yes, I want to follow the SGGS in word and spirit. Can you guide me, friend, as to by which name should I remember HIM. I shall just call HIMonce and HE should listen to me.May be my way of calling HIM is defective. But the HE knows that I am requesting HIM to have pity on me and let me have HIS darshan and let me get lost in HIM if that is the ultimate objective of this life.'[ The doubts submitted for clarification by hps ji..]

Need Guidance In Understanding A Line From SGGS

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