TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib On Darshan Singh

talks to JUS Punjabi TV on the Maryada of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib in giving someone Tankhah and other Panthic issues including Ragi Darshan Singh's failure to appear before Sri Akal Takhat Sahib

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

If one wants a .."LONGER LINE"..one DRAWS a Longer line..NOT try and ERASE some one elses LONG line in an attempt to make it seem that my line is LONGER !!

Personal attacks..inneundos..dont make one jathedar worthy of respect...ONLY TRUTH and always TRUTH and Principled behaviour makes one a Jathedar like Prof Ragi Darshan Singh or Akali Phoola Singh.

Anyway this TV is of the same repute as Lamba and his cronies...a "privately owned mouthpiece"...so nothing on it has any credence...absolutley none.

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Did anyone catch the same blunder by the Jathedar and Lamba group?

On 5:20 seconds on Part 2 They asked whether or not as outlined in the document if Prof Darshan Singh is truly an "Aukautee Prof" in english terms meaning self styled Prof? So can we call him aukautee prof.

Jathedar had replied we had not even used the word Aukautee in the hukamnama, in which in fact he did. Lamba and the other individual had replied very quickly and corrected him. Jathedar seems very confused for a few seconds. Now the note here to make is how can the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht sahib not know what he had written on the hukamnama to the former Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib which was read and written approx. 10 or so days prior to the interview? Either the Jathedar has a bad memory or a third party source had written under the name of Sri Akal Takht Sahib and handed it over to the so called jathedar. Knowning myself whatever i would have written i do remember. However writting such an important document such as an hukamanama of sri akal takht he forgets?

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

International Akaali ji

It is a widely held view that the document was written by Lamba and then circulated to various "panthic orgs" days ahead of time. How else would Panthic Weekly have a copy before Professor Darshan Singh even reached India? As you recall the first document and the second document do not match on a couple of important details. The gambit was to get the message out early and then carry out the "hearing" as a mere formality.

This is called: Get an indictment first and worry about asking questions and getting the evidence later. And the evidence was polluted anyway.

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

In January, it will be ridiculous!

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Pre 1984 Akal Takht Hukamnamas were revered and held in awe. Anyone declared Tankhaya would truly be socially boycotted by the Sikhs. The Punishments handed out would be accepted with humility by the high and mighty.
Post 1984 there were a flurry of eddicts. Initially they were respected but they began to appear ridiculous. Buta Singh was the first to defy it and he was not affected a wee bit.
Now in India nobody takes it seriously. National media totaly ignores it. Tribune carries it in the inside columns. A few local Punjabi papers may give it importance. it is not the main news even on PTC Punjabi.
I suggest SPNers also should make only a passing reference to prounouncements made by AT or SGPC until they regain a semblance of credibility.

Gurfateh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

harbansj24 said:

Pre 1984 Akal Takht Hukamnamas were revered and held in awe. Anyone declared Tankhaya would truly be socially boycotted by the Sikhs. The Punishments handed out would be accepted with humility by the high and mighty.
Post 1984 there were a flurry of eddicts. Initially they were respected but they began to appear ridiculous. Buta Singh was the first to defy it and he was not affected a wee bit.
Now in India nobody takes it seriously. National media totaly ignores it. Tribune carries it in the inside columns. A few local Punjabi papers may give it importance. it is not the main news even on PTC Punjabi.
I suggest SPNers also should make only a passing reference to prounouncements made by AT or SGPC until they regain a semblance of credibility.

Gurfateh

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Harbans ji,

Guru Fateh.



1.Can you please share with us the reasons of the reverence and than about the defiance of the same traditional custom by the Sikhs?

2.Does this oral tradition of punishment ( we must not ever forget that we serve/seek the Nirbhau, Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar) compliment or contradict Gurmat ideals given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru?

3. What in your opinion will make these pronouncements of punishment (I gather you agree with this tradition) credible?

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

.Does this oral tradition of punishment ( we must not ever forget that we serve/seek the Nirbhau, Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar) compliment or contradict Gurmat ideals given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru?

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Tejwant ji

Even 5ks are not in SGGS so should we start saying that there is no need of 5 ks.Also no where it is written in SGGS that Gurgaddi is pssed to Guru granth sahib,we have to rely on external sources for that.Please remember sikhism is Guru panth and guru granth sahib.Panth have to take many decisions to preserve sikhism.Without Panth there will no Guru granth sahib

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Kanwardeep Singh said:

Tejwant ji

Even 5ks are not in SGGS so should we start saying that there is no need of 5 ks.Also no where it is written in SGGS that Gurgaddi is pssed to Guru granth sahib,we have to rely on external sources for that.Please remember sikhism is Guru panth and guru granth sahib.Panth have to take many decisions to preserve sikhism.Without Panth there will no Guru granth sahib

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Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am bit puzzled by your post. My questions have nothing to do with what you said. Ofcourse, Sikhi is a unique way of life as compared to other religions. Our visionary Gurus did not write any history on purpose nor did they hire any artists to draw their portraits. Had they done both or either, then Sikhi would not be what it is today which is to shed Me-ism.

So, yes we have to rely on oral traditions and other parts of history written by others on hear says.

Yes, there is no place but in Rehatnaamas which claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji, gave Gurgadhi to SGGS. But, let us talk about the facts that we know. We know that Guru Arjan Dev ji compiled the Aad Granth and Guru Gobind Singh ji added his dad's Gurbani to it. So, there is no question that we are the true people of THE BOOK.

5k's are not a prerequisite to be a Sikh. That is the reason I said your post is a bit puzzling and has no relationship to what I asked Harbans ji.

Now, let us get to the slogan which you have used and it has been used quite frequently by many, especially after the case of Prof Sahib's episode.

Without Panth there will no Guru granth sahib

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Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what that means. Can you elaborate it with the verses from SGGS so we can understand what Gurmat message is encrypted in it?

Panth was NOT started by Guru Gobind Singh ji but by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The whole SGGS, our only Guru shows us what a Panthi is like and how one can become a Panthi.

In other words, the Sikhi panth cake was baked by our nine Gurus and Guru Gobind Singh put the icing on it.

If you would like to respond to my questions to Harbans ji, please feel free to pitch in.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what that means. Can you elaborate it with the verses from SGGS so we can understand what Gurmat message is encrypted in it?

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I am very much surprised by your answer.You want everything to be backed by verses of Guru granth sahib.It is just a common sense that if the sikh panth dies then spirituality of Guru granth sahib will be gone.Imagine if khalsa sikhs instead of fighting muslims used some kind of logic and converted themselves to sufi islam then There would be have been no Guru granth sahib to us.

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Kanwardeep Singh said:

I am very much surprised by your answer.You want everything to be backed by verses of Guru granth sahib.It is just a common sense that if the sikh panth dies then spirituality of Guru granth sahib will be gone.Imagine if khalsa sikhs instead of fighting muslims used some kind of logic and converted themselves to sufi islam then There would be have been no Guru granth sahib to us.

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Kanwardeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please forgive me once again and pardon my ignorance, I have no idea what your hypothetical above has to do with my post.

How would you like to back up your slogan which makes no sense to me? It is your choice so, help me understand its true meaning.

Define Sikh Panth for me first. Is it different from the teachings of SGGS? Who started it?

What kind of insecurity makes you come to the conclusion that Sikh Panth is going to die and what does this really mean? Death of what in which sense?

SGGS is not a story book. It gives us the tools to breed goodness within.

How can a wonderful idea to breed goodness in all humanity die?

You write:

Imagine if khalsa sikhs instead of fighting muslims used some kind of logic and converted themselves to sufi islam then There would be have been no Guru granth sahib to us.

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Pardon my ignorance once again, but that is the most illogical claim I have ever heard and I promise you that I will not ask you to use verses from SGGS to back up what you call a " logical" claim.

I fail to understand your claim that spirituality of SGGS will be gone. This again seems like one more of your meaningless slogans.

The fact remains that SGGS is our only Guru and our only benchmark. So these meaningless slogans as an apparent threat to the death of SGGS make no sense.

I have no idea what kind of people will use this kind of silly threat and what purpose does it serve?

Tejwant Singh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Define Sikh Panth for me first. Is it different from the teachings of SGGS? Who started it?

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Tejwant ji

You beleive that Gurgaddi was given to Guru granth sahib.But side by side Gurgaddi was also given to khalsa panth.That's why we have tradition of 5 singhs taking Decision,giving punishments etc.

Pardon my ignorance once again, but that is the most illogical claim I have ever heard and I promise you that I will not ask you to use verses from SGGS to back up what you call a " logical" claim.

I fail to understand your claim that spirituality of SGGS will be gone. This again seems like one more of your meaningless slogans.

The fact remains that SGGS is our only Guru and our only benchmark. So these meaningless slogans as an apparent threat to the death of SGGS make no sense.

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There is no Doubt that SGGS is our only Guru but who is caretaking the Guru Granth sahib? Of course the khalsa panth.The slogan that i said is not by me .It is by jassa singh ahluwalia who at the time losing prayed to god.Just please tell me if no khalsa and sikhs had survived the battles how could the SGGS has reached us in 21st century

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Kanwardeep Singh,

Guru Fateh.

You have not answered any of my questions. Please read my posts again and respond because it may become argumentative to ask you the same questions again.

It is irrelevant who created the meaningless slogan. It is important to see if it makes any sense according to Gurmat ideals given to us in SGGS, our only Guru.

So, I hope to get some answers about my questions that I asked you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

I wonder at your acts of piety and justice; I feel sorry at your sovereignty.67.
I wonder very much regarding your faith; anything said against truth brings downfall.68.
Do not be rash in striking your sword on helpless, otherwise the Providence will shed your blood.69.

In Zafaranama, Guru Gobind Singh reminds all leaders, then and now, that their sovereignty is as good as their moral credibility. The context of this thread concerns the credibility of a jathedar:Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Singh.

The jathedar's credibility is being debated. We know some things to make us doubt that credibility. He or his agent prematurely issued to the "panthic" media a sandesh. He did not consider arguments that a CD offered as evidence was doctored. He considered the charges against Professor Darshan Singh serious enough to call the professor tankhiya, but not serious enough to call for Gurmatta. He could not remember what he had written, and had to be reminded on TV by Lamba. We are left wondering on this point, and by the timing of 2 versions of the original sandesh or edict, whether the jathedar was the front man for other interests within SGPC. In sum, he did not act within the rehat, thus there are questions about his integrity.

I don't think Kanwardeep ji's slogan is meaningless because it makes operational sense. The panth preserves and supports the message of Guru Nanak, especially when it abides by the teachings and the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and when upholding the SRM. The jathedars have been empowered to act in leadership of the panth by tradition. So I don't think it is a meaningless statement, assuming I understand Kanwardeep. What is meaningless, in my opinion, is the idea that any jathedar who lacks the moral instincts for fair play can represent the panth in a legitimate way, for obviously he dismissed the teachings that would have led him to act differently in the case of Professor Darshan Singh. We have the words of Dasam Pita above, I wonder at your acts of piety and justice; I feel sorry at your sovereignty.67.

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Its a Gross mistake to say that the 5K's/Amrit/Bir Rass/Fighting Spirit/Miri/Piri/etc etc are NOT in SGGS or not backed by SGGS. Its ALL there....in all its GLORY...but we must have the eyes to see.

The Nanak JYOT is ONE..from 1469 to 1708..NONE of the 9 "Body" Nanaks that followed Guru nanak Ji the Fountain Head.... did even the tiniest Nano-change/departure form the BLUEPRINT that Guru Nanak Ji Sahib Prepared. So its true to say that the KHALSA is the Creation of Guru Nanak ji Sahib in 1469 !! He began the First Plan "drawing"....all the others followed brick by brick..until Guru Gobind Singh ji passed the Mehl of Sikhi as Complete in 1708 and gave it the Certificate of Fitness !! From that Day on the Spirit of the Khalsa is in SGGS and its Body is in the Khalsa Panth !!

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Define Sikh Panth for me first

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Sikh panth is a combination of miri piri element

Is it different from the teachings of SGGS?

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If you ask me then there are some differences.uncut kesh restriction on halal meat are not all in SGGS
but still uncut hair hold very much importance in sikhism.So many people love the spiritual teachings of SGGS but they don't call themselves sikhs.

What kind of insecurity makes you come to the conclusion that Sikh Panth is going to die and what does this really mean? Death of what in which sense?

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I am not saying that sikh path is going to Die but yes it is reality that sikh panth was in real danger of death in 18 century.Even still a large number of sikhs are assimilated in majority religions

SGGS is not a story book. It gives us the tools to breed goodness within.

How can a wonderful idea to breed goodness in all humanity die?

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Its true that it breeds goodness within but please tell are the teachings of SGGS is alive in Pakistan? Where the Guru Nanak dev ji was born.Apart from handful of sikhs majority of pakistani's moved towards fanatic islam the same people whose ancestors were close to spiritual teachings of SGGS.similarly Budhism wonderful teachings got extinct from India

It is irrelevant who created the meaningless slogan

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If a very practical statement by a great gursikh looks meaningless to you then I can't do anything.

can there be Gita,veda's without Hindu's ?

can there be quran without Muslims?

can there be bible without christians?

Similarly how could there be Guru granth sahib without sikhs.A lot of people take benefit from spirituality of Guru granth sahib .but only sikhs sacrificed themselves.Did any punjabi muslims who had faith in SGGS came out when Birs of Guru granth sahib were burnt?
Did Punjabi Hindu's came out when countless birs were burnt in 84 Only who considered themselves as part of sikh panth came out.

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

[/quote]Its a Gross mistake to say that the 5K's/Amrit/Bir Rass/Fighting Spirit/Miri/Piri/etc etc are NOT in SGGS or not backed by SGGS. Its ALL there....in all its GLORY...but we must have the eyes to see.[/quote]

Gyani ji I am sorry but i don't beleive that importance of 5 ks is mentined in Guru granth sahib

From that Day on the Spirit of the Khalsa is in SGGS and its Body is in the Khalsa Panth !!

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Thank you for proving my point that khalsa panth is body and sggs and without body a spirit cannot do anything

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

Gurfateh!

If there was no Khalsa Panth before Guru Gobind Singh ji then how come the concept of Miri Piri (Saint-Soldier) come into existence by Guru Hargobind Ji, the sixth Guru? Why Guru Arjan Sahib, who Himself did not use weaponary, but not only nurtured these qualities in Guru HarGobind Saheb but also ordained the next Guru to create a military outfit in defiance to prevalent tyranny at that time? Certainly there could not have been any departure from the teachings of SGGS at that moment or do we consider this act of Miri Piri is contrary to the teachings of SGGS?

Please correct me again but where Does Dasam Granth mention the importance of 5Ks specifically? Does that mean that Hukamnaamas that mention about the 5Ks and against Halal Meat may well be elevated to the level of The Guru because SGGS + Khalsa Panth are incomplete without the mention of 5Ks?

Gyani Ji said "From that Day (Birth of Guru Nanak) on, the Spirit of the Khalsa is in SGGS and its Body is in the Khalsa Panth!!"

I find it intriguing when Kanwardeep ji ignored that part of the statement!

We have to keep this in mind that, originally, there was no Dasam Granth in its present form but a collection of various compositions scattered all around and latter bound into one volume at the behest of whom is still unknown and No Khalsa Panth was not consulted or GurMata taken before bounding the compositions into one book and proclaiming the book as so called Dasam Granth and stating that all these compositions are from the pen of Dasam Patshah? Then who gave the Sodhak Committee formed in 1900-1903 the authority to remove seven compositions from the so called Dasam Granth? Were they over and above the Guru to decide what was said by the Guru and what was not Gurbani?

But again I fail to understand where & how does so called Dasam Granth come into picture after around two hundred years of wilderness? And when the concept of Saint Soldier was already there and how does it concur that the Khalsa Panth is incomplete without the so called Dasam Granth?

How does so called Dasam Granth make the Khasla Panth make complete? Are we not belitteling the authority of SGGS, our only Guru?


Bhul Chuk Maaf


Aman Singh

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

But again I fail to understand where & how does so called Dasam Granth come into picture after around two hundred years of wilderness? And when the concept of Saint Soldier was already there and how does it concur that the Khalsa Panth is incomplete without the so called Dasam Granth?

How does so called Dasam Granth make the Khasla Panth make complete? Are we not belitteling the authority of SGGS, our only Guru?

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Aman singh ji

I am really sorry but none of my post mention anything about Dasam Granth

Re: TV Interview: Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on Darshan Si

I am talking not only to you alone in this debate. Just a general observation and an effort to divert the discussion back on topic.