Consumption Of Alcohol Amongst Sikhs

Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:

1. Maintains untrimmed kesh
2. Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
3. Does not consume alcohol.

While the first two may be generally true for the Sikhs of Delhi, the third point is false for a very large majority of Sikhs.

I had no problem with the last point so I signed the declaration without hesitation. But lakhs of Delhi Sikhs will be signing a false declaration!

re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs

Lakhs of Sikhs are indeed FALSE SIKHS..or what is called BHEKHI SIKHS. This is true worldwide..not just in Delhi. Anyone who disputes this just attend a SIKH Wedding..anand karaj and see first person just how much alcohol atypical sikh gathering can drink..in MALAYSIA attend the Malacca Anniversary/B{censored}e of Local Sant Ji Late Baba Sohan Singh Ji...it is said that Malacca Town sells 10 times more alcohol during the 3 day B{censored}e than in an entire year. In fact NO Sikh wedding is complete if no alcohol is served..a BAR is essential in nay wedding hall and is a feature of amny Sikh homes much more than a Baba Jis room for SGGS Parkash. Sad but TRUE.

re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs

harbansj24 said:

Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:

1. Maintains untrimmed kesh
2. Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
3. Does not consume alcohol.

While the first two may be generally true for the Sikhs of Delhi, the third point is false for a very large majority of Sikhs.

I had no problem with the last point so I signed the declaration without hesitation. But lakhs of Delhi Sikhs will be signing a false declaration!

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Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.

Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs

Randip Singh said:

Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.

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Is the matter of maintaining Sikh identity a matter of 'at personal level'! At personal level, drinking and smoking too can be OK for a Sikh!

harbansj24 said:

Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:

1. Maintains untrimmed kesh
2. Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
3. Does not consume alcohol.

While the first two may be generally true for the Sikhs of Delhi, the third point is false for a very large majority of Sikhs.

I had no problem with the last point so I signed the declaration without hesitation. But lakhs of Delhi Sikhs will be signing a false declaration!

Click to expand...

With the indulgence of all 4 who have posted so far This is exactly what causes confusion in the young. Notice that the 3 points above are taken from the list from the SRM definition of "Who is a Sikh?" All of the tenets are not listed. Not listed is "believes in one God." If gambling were permitted, I would wager, that a year from now, because of this list, we will be discussing why someone who includes a little idol worship here and there and then and again, either was on the ballot, or got elected. Maybe even discussing how an "atheist" got elected.

The interesting to notice is that many Sikh women are into drinking alcohol now a days as well, both in India and abroad. At my niece's reception which was held in Boston by the groom's parents, alcohol was served. We at our parties which were four in total, no alcohol was served. The sitting arrangement was a mixture of both families. I sat next to the groom's aunt who had been married to the groom's uncle-his mum's brother- who had unfortunately passed away because of cancer. I had known her from IIGS (International Institute of Gurmat Studies) in Los Angles. She was the main person doing keertan at their monthly divaan and had taken Khandei de Pahul. In fact I took the same at IIGS on the Vaisakhi day of 1988.

A couple of things I noticed that made me bewildered. First the person she got married to again is 18 years her junior and he used to call her Behnji in Los Angles and he is the son of Capt. Sahib, the head of IIGS. Both I knew had taken khandei di pahul.

The second thing that shocked me was that it was only Jaskeerat, Trimaan and myself with soft drinks. The rest of the lot which included seven, four of them women, who have been known to carry Kirpans and sing Shabads loudly were sipping champagne.

Hypocricy working at its best.

So, Harbans ji, you are right about people lying on the forms.

Tejwant Singh

Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs

Randip Singh said:

Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.

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Randip ji,

Guru Fateh.

A person who has trimmed beard and kesh would most likely be also a drinker at least.

Tejwant Singh

Personally I would rather see a Sikh participant who had a trimmed kesh but didn't drink or smoke there.

Click to expand...

I found your response interesting. I feel like if I was a devout Sikh I would share your sentiment. (I also have to agree with the poster above me, chances are, if you're clean shave—you drink; but the common perception now is that chances are, if your punjabi—you drink.) Lol, in highschool, as a tongue in cheek response to students who were ignorant of punjabi culture, we use to say "Punjabi people are alot like the Irish, they love to eat potatoes, dance, fight and drink." Of course, I realize thats just a stereotype—but that goes for the post above me as well.

I found the list of requirements interesting though and a "confirmation" of sorts of what I have been saying for a long time on this site. The question of what it means to be a "Sikh" is largely a superficial one.

If you treat drink as part of food (some westerners do!), I personally would think it is OK.

But if you know you are drinking to get into a fight, insult people, harass or do other such deviant behaviors, then at a personal level you rather not drink.

In the matter of DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee), apparently a very corrupt organization, to send these letters forcing people to lie is hypocritical.

The saying (I just made it up but has some logic to it) is " If a law is made to serve the people and 99% break it, then the issue is with the law and not the people".

For me it is personal.

Sat Sri Akal.

The rest of the lot which included seven, four of them women, who have been known to carry Kirpans and sing Shabads loudly were sipping champagne. Hypocricy working at its best. So, Harbans ji, you are right about people lying on the forms.

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That is very sad indeed.

If a law is made to serve the people and 99% break it, then the issue is with the law and not the people

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Guru said:
ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲੰਦਾ ਰਖਿ ਲੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
The world is going up in flames - shower it with Your Mercy, and save it!

ਜਿਤੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਉਬਰੈ ਤਿਤੈ ਲੈਹੁ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥
Save it, and deliver it, by whatever method it takes.

So when 99% break the law, we should not change the law. We should depend on Guru's mercy and work on getting it fixed.

spnadmin said:

With the indulgence of all 4 who have posted so far This is exactly what causes confusion in the young. Notice that the 3 points above are taken from the list from the SRM definition of "Who is a Sikh?" All of the tenets are not listed. Not listed is "believes in one God." If gambling were permitted, I would wager, that a year from now, because of this list, we will be discussing why someone who includes a little idol worship here and there and then and again, either was on the ballot, or got elected. Maybe even discussing how an "atheist" got elected.

Click to expand...

Spnadmin Ji..
HA HA..you ahve corralled the bull by its horns ( you know that loopy rope that cow boys throw at a bull and bring it down )..THIS "LOOPHOLE" is to let in....HA HA HA..the FULLY KESHADHAREE ( but non smokers and teetotallers) RADHA SOAMIS, NAMDHAREES, NIRANKAREES (narakdharees) Asutoshs, Ram Rahims Premis Rulda Bhais Bhaiyash and RSS navjot sidhus etc etc etc etc...

A SIKH has to either ALL or NONE.
1. Beleive ONLY in SGGS and the Ten Guru Sahibs. NO OTHER GURUS or
beleifs allowed.
2. Be Keshadharee and no trimming, colouring, plucking....
3. NO Smoking, drugging, hukkaing, injecting, snorting...pegging
4. NO adultery....womanising...providing private counselling to single
women alone in hotel rooms (Baba Chicago wallah/bhora wallah babas)
5. NO HALLAL.

THE FIRST RULE is PARAMOUNT. IF that rule is not followed any one following the other FOUR is just an ordinary HUMAN BEING and can be any religion. The Radhasomais GURUS have longer beards, better looking dsataars, and look more regal "sardars" than most SIKH SARDARS.
ASUTOSH the Bhauyah baba has longer hair than most Sikhs..so has Ram Rahim of Sacha Sauda, and sevral others of this ilk. They dont drink, smoke, do drugs, etc..BUT the ONE THING THEY ALL HAVE IN COMMON is they DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SGGS/TEN GURU SAHIBS. This disqualifies them all.....BUT this disqualification doesnt apply to SGPC voter forms or dgmc voter forms...hence the prepondernace of NON-SIKHS in these institutions and sad state fo Sikh maryada therein.

kjsinghhyd ji welcome and thanks for your post.

From my understanding, Sikhism does not teach people to put themselves on a pedestal and look down on others visibly or otherwise to be lesser sikhs. This authority belongs to Panj Piyareh for individual cases and to the Akal Takhat Sahib for appeals and greater Panthic matters.

So when I post that if a law is 99% not obeyed it does not appear as an example of good law and indirectly leads to law breaking by almost everyone.

Examples:

• Laws:

• Morals
  • Do not lie
  • Do not steal
  • Do not cheat
  • Treat elders with respect
  • Treat everyone as equal
  • ..
  • .. list is pretty long

So unless one is so pious and so Godly to be 100% obeying laws and of 100% morally right, one does not have the authority or privilege to find faults in others or dictate as to how others should live.

So the temptation is always there but avoiding the fault finding mindset brings great bliss. I seek this myself but am far from it winkingmunda
Sat Sri Akal.

Respected Sikh Cyber Members,

Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh

In the Delhi Sikh Gurdwaras Act 1971 passed by the Parliament of India
on 30th December 1971, it is mentioned that "Sikh" means a person who
professes the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Ten Gurus only,
and keeps unshorn hair.....

Then it is stated - QUALIFICATIONS OF ELECTOR -

8. Every person who -

(a) has been ordinarily resident in a ward for not less than one hundred and eighty days during the qualifying period;

(b) is a Sikh of not less than twenty-one years of age on the qualifying date; shall be entitled to be registered in the electoral roll for that ward;

Provided that no person shall be registered as an elector who -

(a) trims or shaves his beard or keshas;
(b) smokes;
(c) takes alcoholic drinks.

Hence, Sikh voters should always practice TRUTH, and if someone does
not follow the basic tenets then that person is a hypocrite, impostor.

In respect of third point:

< siqgur pRswid ]

SIKHISM SHUNS DRINKING

In most of the foreign countries, it is customary to offer drinks during the official and social gatherings. In 1981, when I first came to Australia, I was confronted with the question of ‘drinking’. When explained that Sikhs neither drink nor smoke, Australians accepted my explanation. During the official functions or private parties, I was offered juice or soft drinks only. But I am surprised when this question is raised by the Sikhs that there is no harm to have a small drink occasionally. Despite giving them convincing reasons and extracts from the books, they generally remain unsatisfied and require further authentic proof from the “Guru Granth Sahib”. With this in view, following Divine Revealed Word (Gurbaani Shabds) are reproduced for their information and guidance:

Guru Nanak Sahib preaches us:

isrI rwgu mhlw 1 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 16 ] bwbw horu Kwxw KusI KuAwru ] ijqu KwDY qnu pIVIAY mn mih clih ivkwr ] 1 ] rhwau ]

ArQ: hy BweI ! ijMnHW pdwrQW dy Kwx (pIx) nwl srIr rogI ho jWdw hY Aqy mn iv~c BI keI mMdy i^Awl qur pYNdy hn, aunHW pdwrQW nMU Kwx (pIx) nwl ^uAwr hoeIdw hY [ (tIkwkwr, pRoPYsr swihb isMG jI)

Friend, all other foods (including drinks), (and) all other pleasures, are vain. For, they fill the mind with Evil and make the body writhe in Pain. GGS P. 16, (Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

Awsw mhlw 1 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 360 ] pUrw swcu ipAwlw shjy iqsih pIAwey
jw kau ndir kry ] AMimRq kw vwpwrI hovY ikAw mid CUCY Bwau Dry ] 2 ] 4 ] 38 ]

ArQ: (hy jogI !) ieh hY auh ipAwlw ijs dI msqI sdw itkI rihMdI hY, s~B guxW dw mwlk pRBU Afolqw iv~c r~K ky aus mnu~K nMU (ieh ipAwlw) iplWdw hY ijs au~qy auh Awp myhr dI nzr krdw hY [ jyhVw mnu~K At~l Awqimk jIvn dyx vwly ies rs dw vpwrI bx jwey, auh (quhwfy vwly ies) hoCy Srwb nwl ipAwr nhIN krdw [ (tIkwkwr, poRPYsr swihb isMG jI)

The Lord, perfection incarnate offers this cup of Truth spontaneously, To Whomsoever He shows grace. One that deals in Amrita (Nectar Word), by hollow intoxicants (wines) shall not be attracted. GGS P 360 - (Prof Gurbachan Singh jee Talib, Punjabi University, Patiala)

sloku mrdwnw 1] gurU gRMQ swihb-pMnw 553] kil klvwlI kwmu mdu mnUAw pIvxhwru ] kRoD ktorI moih BrI pIlwvw AhMkwru ] mjls kUVy lb kI pI pI hoie KuAwru ] krxI lwhix squ guVu scu srw kir swru ] gux mMfy kir sIl iGau srmu mwsu Awhwru ] gurmuiK pweIAY nwnkw KwDY jwih ibkwr]1]

ArQ: kljugI suBwau (mwnoN) (Srwb k~Fx vwlI) m~tI hY; kwm (mwnoN) Srwb hY qy ies nMU pIx vwlw (mnu~K dw) mn hY [ moh nwl BrI hoeI kRoD dI (mwnoN) ktorI hY qy AhMkwr (mwnoN) iplwaux vwlw hY [ kUVy l~b dI (mwnoN) mjls hY (ijs iv~c bih ky) mn (kwm dI Srwb nMU) pI pI ky KuAwr huMdw hY [ cMgI krxI nMU (Srwb k~Fx vwlI) lwhx, s~c bolx nMU guV bxw qy s~cy nwm nMU sRySt Srwb bxw [ guxW nMU mMfy, sIql suBwau nMU iGau qy Srm nMU mws - (ieh swrI) ^urwk bxw [ hy nwnk ! ieh ^urwk siqgurU dy snmu~K hoieAW imldI hY qy ies dy KwiDAw swry ivkwr dUr ho jWdy hn [ [Guru Nanak attributed the composition to Bhai Mardana]

Kaliyuga is the vat, lust the wine; the mind the boozer. With wrath is the cup by attachment filled; Pride the cup-bearer. In circle of false avarice, those thus boozing forfeit all honour. Make good deeds and truth the molasses, Thus the wine of Truth thou distil. Make good qualities the pancakes, good conduct the ghee (clarified butter), Modesty the dish of flesh. These dishes, Saith Nanak, by the Master’s guidance are obtained, By whose consumption evil-thinking vanishes. GGS Page 553 - (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

mrdwnw 1 ] kwieAw lwhix Awpu mdu mjls iqRsnw Dwqu ] mnsw ktorI kUiV BrI pIlwey jm kwlu ] iequ mid pIqY nwnkw bhuqy KtIAih ibkwr ] igAwnu guVu swlwh mMfy Bau mwsu Awhwru ] nwnk iehu Bojnu scu hY scu nwmu AwDwru ] 2 ]

ArQ: srIr (mwnoN) (Srwb k~Fx vwlI sm~grI smyq) m~tI hY, AhMkwr Srwb, qy iqRSnw iv~c Btkxw (mwnoN) mihPl hY [ kUV nwl BrI hoeI vwSnw (mwnoN) ktorI hY qy jm kwl (mwnoN) iplwauNdw hY [ hy nwnkw ! ies Srwb dy pIiqAW bhuqy ivkwr K~ty jWdy hn (Bwv, AhMkwr iqRSnw kUV Awidk dy kwrn ivkwr hI ivkwr pYdw ho rhy hn) [ pRBU dw igAwn (mwnoN) guV hovy, is&iq swlwh rotIAW qy (pRBU dw) fr mws-ieh ^urwk hovy[ hy nwnk ! ieh Bojn s~cw hY ikauNik s~cw nwm hI (izMdgI dw) Awsrw ho skdw hY [

The body is the vat, ego the wine; Restless desire the boozers’ circle. Passion the cup falsehood-filled, that Yama, agent of death is doling out. Saith Nanak: By drinking such wine are numerous sins earned. Make enlightenment the molasses, Divine laudation the pancakes and Fear of God the dish of flesh. Saith Nanak: Seeking prop of the holy Name, Is this the feast of Truth. (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

(mrdwnw 1 ]) kWXW lwhix Awpu mdu AMimRq iqs kI Dwr ] sqsMgiq isau mylwpu hoie ilv ktorI AMimRq BrI pI pI ktih ibkwr ] 3 ]

ArQ: (jy) srIr m~tI hovy, Awpy dI pCwx Srwb qy aus dI Dwr (Bwv, ijs dI Dwr) Amr krn vwlI hovy [ sqsMgiq nwl myl hovy (Bwv, mjls sqsMgiq hovy) qy AMimRq (nwm) dI BrI hoeI ilv (rUp) ktorI hovy, (qW hI mnu~K) (ies Srwb nMU) pI pI ky swry ivkwr pwp dUr krdy hn [ {tIkwkwr: pRoPYsr swihb isMG jI}

Make the body the vat; of the ego make wine, Which in stream of Amrita pours. In unison with holy company, with cup of devotion, Quaff cupfuls of Amrita – By such quaffing is annulled evil-thinking. (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

Guru Amardas Sahib expounds the effects of drinking liquor:

slok m: 3 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 554 ] mwxsu BirAw AwixAw mwxsu BirAw Awie ] ijqu pIqY miq dUir hoie brlu pvY ivic Awie ] Awpxw prwieAw n pCwxeI Ksmhu Dky Kwie ] ijqu pIqY Ksmu ivsrY drgh imlY sjwie ] JUTw mdu mUil n pIceI jy kw pwir vswie ] nwnk ndrI scu mdu pweIAY siqguru imlY ijsu Awie ] sdw swihb kY rMig rhY mhlI pwvY Qwau ] 1 ]

ArQ: jy mnu~K (ivkwrW nwl) ilbiVAw hoieAw (eyQy jgq iv~c) ilAWdw igAw, auh eyQy Aw ky (hor ivkwrW iv~c hI) il~bVdw hY (qy Srwb Awidk kukrm iv~c pYNdw hY) [ pr ijs dy pIiqAW Akl dUr ho jWdI hY qy bkx dw joS Aw cVHdw hY [ Awpxy prwey dI pCwx nhIN rihMdI qy mwlk vloN D~ky pYNdy hn [ ijs dy pIiqAW Ksm ivsrdw hY qy drgwh iv~c szw imldI hY, AYsI cMdrI Srwb ijQoN q~k v~s c~ly kdy nhIN pIxI cwhIdI[ hy nwnk ! pRBU dI myhr dI nzr nwl ‘nwm’-rUp nSw (aus mnu~K nMU) imldw hY, ijs nMU gurU Aw ky iml pey [ auh mnu~K sdw mwlk dy (nwm dy) rMg iv~c rihMdw hY qy drgwh iv~c aus nMU QW (Bwv, ie~zq) imldI hY [

One man offers and another pours himself (the drink). And it makes him crazy and senseless and devoid of all reason. Then one can distinguish not between one’s own and another’s and is cursed by God. Drinking it, one forsakes one’s Master, and is punished at the Lord’s Court. Nay, one should drink not this vicious wine, as far as one can help. If the Lord’s Grace be upon one, one is Blest with the True Wine. And one is imbued with one’s God and is ushered into the Lord’s Presence. GGS Page 554 -(Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

Guru Ramdas Sahib describes the condition of a drunkard as follows:

gauVI kI vwr mhlw 4 ] pMnw 311 ] scu scw ijnI n syivAw sy mnmuKu mUV byqwly ]
Eih Awl pqwlu muhhu boldy ijau pIqY mid mqvwly ] 19 ]

ArQ: gurU swihb aupdyS krdy hn ik hy BweI ! ijnHW ny s~cy hrI nMU nhIN ismirAw, auh mnmu~K mUrK qy Buqny mUMhoN Aijhw bkvws krdy hn ijvyN Srwb pIiqAW SrwbI bkvws krdy hn [

They, who served not the Lord of Truth, are turned away from God; in ignorance they reel.
They bark out insensible prattle, as do the drunkards. GGS P. 311 -(Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

Guru Arjun Sahib also teaches us:

Awsw mhlw 5 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 399 ] durmiq mdu jo pIvqy ibKlIpiq kmlI ]
rwm rswieix jo rqy nwnk sc AmlI ] 4 ] 12 ] 114 ]

ArQ: (hy sMq jno !) KotI miq (mwno) Srwb hY jyhVy mnu~K ieh Srwb pIx l~g pYNdy hn (jo gurU dw Awsrw C~f ky KotI miq dy ip~Cy qurn l~g pYNdy hn) auh durwcwrI ho jWdy hn Aqy auh (ivkwrW iv~c) J~ly ho jWdy hn [ pr, hy nwnk ! jyhVy mnu~K pRmwqmw dy nwm dy sRySt rs iv~c msq rihMdy hn, aunHW nMU sdw iQr rihx vwly pRmwqmw dy nwm dw Aml l~g jWdw hY [

They who drink the wine of Vice, their mind is turned. But they who drink the Elixir of the Lord are in the Ecstasy of Truth. GGS Page 399 - (Dr. Gopal Singh jee)

mwrU mhlw 5 ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1001 ] pRwn suK dwqw jIA suK dwqw qum kwhy ibswirE AigAwnQ ] hoCw mdu cwiK hoey qum bwvr dulB jnmu AkwrQ ] 1 ]

ArQ: hy AigAwnI ! qUM ikauN aus pRmwqmw nMU Blw id~qw hY jo ijMd dyx vwlw hY, swry suK dyx vwlw hY Aqy swry jIvW nMU suK dyx vwlw hY [ CyqIN mu~k jwx vwly Srwb dy JUTy moh dw nSw c~K ky qUM J~lw ho irhw hYN Aqy qyrw kImqI jnm ivArQ jw irhw hY [
Ignorant man! Why be forgetful of the Provider of joy to life, Provider of joy to the Self?
Tasting of the world’s insipid liquor are you turned mad, making waste of your life hard to attain. GGS Page 1001 - (Professor Gurbachan Singh jee Talib)

Saint Ravidas ji warns us:

mlwr bwxI Bgq rivdws jI kI ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1293 ] sursrI sll ikRq bwrunI ry sMq jn krq nhI pwnM ] surw ApivqR nq Avr jl ry sursrI imlq nih hoie AwnM ] 1 ]

ArQ: hy BweI ! gMgw dy pwxI qoN BI bxweI hoeI Srwb, gurmu~K lok nhIN pINdy (Bwv, auh Srwb gRihx-krn-Xog nhIN, iesy qrHW AhMkwr BI Aaugx hI hY, cwhy auh au~cI pivqR jwq dw kIqw jwey) [ pr hy BweI ! ApivqR Srwb Aqy BwvyN hor gMdy pwxI BI hox, auh gMgw dy pwxI iv~c iml ky, aus qoN v~Kry nhIN rih jWdy (iesy qrHW nIvIN kul dw bMdw BI prm pivqR pRBU iv~c juV ky, aus qNo v~Krw nhIN rih jWdw) [

O’ holy men! Drink not wine, even though it be made with the Ganga’s water (Hindus’ holy river). The impure wine, -- nay rather some other dirty water as well, meeting (mixing) with the Ganges, remains not different from it. P 1293 (Advocate Manmohan Singh jee, SGPC)

Saint Kabir ji further tells us:

slok Bgq kbIr jIau ky ] gurU gRMQ swihb - pMnw 1377 ] kbIr BWg mwCulI surwpwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswql jWih ] 233 ]

ArQ: hy kbIr ! jo lok “Bgqn syqI gosty” kr ky qIrQ-XwqRw, vrq-nym Awidk BI krdy hn qy auh SrwbI lok BMg-m~CI BI Kwdy hn (Bwv, sqsMg iv~c BI jWdy hn, Srwb-kbwb BI KWdy pINdy hn Aqy ivkwr BI krdy hn), aunHW dy auh qIrQ, vrq Awidk vwly swry krm iblkul ivArQ jWdy hn [

Saint Kabir says: the mortals who eat (consume) bhang (hemp) and fish and drink wine, Shall all go to hell, whatever pilgrimages, fasting, and daily devotion they may perform.
GGS Page 1377 - (Mr. Max Arthur Macauliffe)

Conclusion:

There is no doubt that alcoholic drinks affect the body and mind by way of serious diseases. We also know that drinking and driving is also an offence that is why breath testing on the highways is a common feature. During the Good Friday, Christmas and New Year holidays there is always increase in deaths due to drink - driving. Apart from the non-violation of traffic rules, in view of religious injunction, Sikhs generally remain away from such happenings and accordingly by the blessings of Guru Sahibaan, Sikhs enjoy better life. Whatever may be the Doctors or Scientists’ views, Sikhs being followers of the Sikh Faith, should not drink beer or any other alcoholic spirits.

Request: I shall be grateful if this article, after undertaking appropriate changes, if any,
It may be distributed amongst your family members, friends, relatives and work mates.

vwihgurU jI kw ^wlsw vwihgurU jI kI &iqh ]

Reproduced for free distribution by, [Sunday: 13th October 2002]

Email: gurmitsingh01@bigpond.com
9 – HAMLIN STREET, QUAKERS HILL, N S W - 2763, AUSTRALIA {Tel/Fax No. 61 – 2 – 9837 2787}


Thanks,

Gurmit Singh (Sydney - Australia)

Ambarsaria said:

kSo unless one is so pious and so Godly to be 100% obeying laws and of 100% morally right, one does not have the authority or privilege to find faults in others or dictate as to how others should live.

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Amnarsaria ji,

Of course none of us is really 100% anything when it comes to moral issues. However, we need to explore possibilities and find alternatives. One way to do this is to critique and discuss ideas of others among ourselves. Not to do this is to close the door to improvement to those of us still learning. (That would be all of us, except the Gurus and egotistical fools!)

This can be done in a way that promotes angry emotional outbursts or one that promotes civil and mutually beneficial discourse. It is, after all, possible to "disagree without being disagreeable." This is one indication of a mature individual. While this will probably involve finding fault with the ideas and/or reasoning of another, it is always possible to disagree without making personal attacks on the person/people involved.

Additionally, and I suppose this can be debated, being a Sikh now involves acceptance of the Sikh Rehat Maryada or possibly some other recognised Rehat Maryada, even though I doubt anyone follows any perfectly. Anyone who thinks s/he is doing a perfect job has a huge ego, I think. If I see another Sikh making some error that I recognise, I will try to discretely and courteously point it out. I expect another Sikh would help me out in the same way.

In the issue of alcohol, I believe every maryada insists that Amritdhari Sikhs must abstain from all intoxicants. (Some among the nihungs make an exception for bhang, but since neither of us is a nihung, we can ignore that.) I know the SRM says that all Sikhs should abstain.

The point, I think, is not to let ego get in the way. As long as we are trying to learn, disagreement and even conflict of ideas is good and necessary. Not to allow this shuts the door to discussion and learning. What then the use of any forum?

harbansj24 said:

Recently I was sent a form from DSGMC (Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee) for inclusion of my name in the voters list for election of DSGMC. Among other things that I was asked to fill, was a declaration that I am a Sikh who:

1. Maintains untrimmed kesh
2. Does not smoke or consume tobbacco
3. Does not consume alcohol.

While the first two may be generally true for the Sikhs of Delhi, the third point is false for a very large majority of Sikhs.

I had no problem with the last point so I signed the declaration without hesitation. But lakhs of Delhi Sikhs will be signing a false declaration!

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i am sikh jatt girl , ge tmany marraige proposal.my few question i ever ask the boy is1) are u edicted to some things like gutka alcohol ,and i am pure veg..
most of the boy replies...je daru n hi to sikh nahi...!!!!! jatt ho ke daru na piye to apni kaum badnaam ho jani....!!!!***!!!!! and koi kudi kisi bevde sarabhi nal vyah kyu karagi...if this wont stop then i think Sikh will be known form drinking more alcohol than water...i have seen 19-20 years kids they dance with hand glass of bear and alcohol even their parents dont say any things to them..shame on such parents,themselves they donno what is sikhi and expect others to follow it...animatedkhanda1

Re: Cosumption of Alcohol among Sikhs

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

Lakhs of Sikhs are indeed FALSE SIKHS..or what is called BHEKHI SIKHS. This is true worldwide..not just in Delhi. Anyone who disputes this just attend a SIKH Wedding..anand karaj and see first person just how much alcohol atypical sikh gathering can drink..in MALAYSIA attend the Malacca Anniversary/B{censored}e of Local Sant Ji Late Baba Sohan Singh Ji...it is said that Malacca Town sells 10 times more alcohol during the 3 day B{censored}e than in an entire year. In fact NO Sikh wedding is complete if no alcohol is served..a BAR is essential in nay wedding hall and is a feature of amny Sikh homes much more than a Baba Jis room for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Parkash. Sad but TRUE.

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u r absolutely true...i appreciate ur concerns

kjsinghhyd said:

That is very sad indeed.
(snippage)
So when 99% break the law, we should not change the law. We should depend on Guru's mercy and work on getting it fixed.

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Ummm...no, I think the idea is much more along the lines of a practical Dr. Phil "how's that workin' for ya?" type of approach.

For example, I used to work at a ski resort here in Vermont.

They had a strict policy about guests having a ski pass on them at all times, and it had to be the correct ski pass for what they were doing at the time.

So as part of this policy they would end up doing things like pulling a gentleman out of the lift line because he did not have a lift ticket on him at all, or because he was wearing a child's season pass instead of an adult season pass.

The adult would often be angry or impatient because they would make him come and sit in the manager's office until they could determine what to do (call security and have him removed, or figure out that it was a simple mistake and let him go, etc.)

So he's sitting there *stuck* in the manager's office. Meanwhile his children don't know where he is (families often get separated easily on ski mountains!), his wife cannot find him... and this guy, who spent $10,000 on season passes for himself and his family before he even CAME to the mountain, who reserved a deluxe 3 bedroom unit at our fancy base lodge hotel to the tune of probably another $5000, who was no doubt spending another $2000 on food while there, and buying several hundred dollars worth of clothing and souvenirs...This guy who has been with skiing with our resort for 20 years gets so fed up with the fact that he's missed almost an entire day of skiing -- ALL BECAUSE OUR RULES SAID he cannot go on our mountain with his son's ski pass (because we found out later, his son *accidentally* picked up Dad's ski pass that morning!)...This guy who was basically handing us almost $20,000 of his money is now saying, "I will never EVER ski here again because your policy has RUINED my family vacation."

And variations of that story happened over and over again... so much so that these complaints finally reached the CEO of the corporation that owns the resort. And he did some research. And he calculated that, by pulling people out of the lift line or otherwise detaining people who did not have a pass or who did not have the right kind of pass, we ~maybe~ saved ourselves $30,000 a year.

But we COST ourselves nearly $500,000 in lost business.

It didn't take an Einstein level IQ to do the math on that.

Needless to say that "law" was not working for the majority of people, and when looked at more closely, it was not working for the resort either.

So they changed the "law" -- and now they do not detain or otherwise bother people who don't have a pass or don't have the correct pass. And sure, it means that some cheaters will take advantage of that policy and ski for free. But it also means that guys that come with their families to the resort and spend tens of thousands of dollars *will have a nice time* and will *keep coming back*.

See... there is a HUGE difference between knowing what you have a "right" to do and knowing in your heart the "right thing" to do.

Like, in my own life, I have a boss who has not yet figured out that there is a difference between these two things. And even though I come in early almost every day and work a full day and even work late many nights, he wants to dock my pay because I was 12 minutes late ONE DAY. A day when we received OVER A FOOT OF SNOW overnight.

All of the schools in the state were closed. Many businesses were closed. And even though my work is over 60 miles away, and even though I have to rely on a public van to get there, and even though the road conditions were TERRIBLE, I managed to arrive only 12 minutes late.

And he is insisting that I deduct 15 minutes of vacation time from my timesheet due to the fact that I did not CALL him to NOTIFY him that I would be late.

On a day when common sense combined with this admittedly rare and high-level managerial skill known as "looking out the window to check the weather" would have TOLD him I was going to be late.

And I have tried, desperately almost, to explain to him that when he micromanages me in this way -- seeking out faults and shortcomings without ever praising me or offering any balance to counteract his perpetual focus on negativity. I have pointed out to him that our entire unit is unraveling... that everyone on our team is looking for work elsewhere... because they are so unhappy with his rules and his rigid, fear-based, ego-based focus on having us kow-tow to his authority.

What is the saying -- there are none so blind as those who *will not see*? I think that applies here.

The important thing about rules and laws is not the fact that the rule or the law exists because clearly there was a time when that rule or law did not exist...and that changed...and that means that it can change again. The important thing it is to focus on what that law is intended to accomplish -- what interest that law is designed to address.

Lose sight of that and the law simply becomes meaningless dogma -- something that, based on my understanding of gurbani, we are urged to avoid doing.

Not all things the things the Gurus did and not all the things said in holy writings are intended to be normative for all time, for all people across all ages. Just because Guru Nanak Ji traveled to Mecca does not mean that all Sikhs must then travel to Mecca! (What a mess that would be these days, yes?? LOL)

To have an inquiring and discerning heart and mind is a gift. God must want us to use those gifts or God would have created robots instead of humans.

I have not come across these don'ts and do's in the body of the Guru Granth Sahib. All Guru Nanak Dev says is that the intoxication of NAM is far superior to wine or alcohal. Therefore have the intoxication of the wine of the Nam.
What Guru Nanak emphatically states is that do not consume that food which will pollute and corrupt the mind and spoil the body or the digestive system.
these so called leaders are hypocrites in my opinion.

they consume meat and liquor and prescribe others not to do so. At home they take meals sitting in the chair and on the table but prescribe langar sitting at floor. For them food at home has nothing to do with langar or langar provided by the Guru.

They tell lies and call themselves sikhs . A person fighting for sewa ( chairmanship) in the Gurudwara, deceiving others in business and telling lies is not a gursikh, but a slur on the name of Sikhi as propounded by the Gurus.

I have expressed my frank opinion.

There is no where in the SGGS Where there is a dictum that a clean shaven is not a sikh. Kabir says that a lamb never cuts its hair like the other wild animals.

Can we call them to have mukti.

With kind regards

Krishan Bhugtiar

How Many of us are really following the Sikhism in an ideal way? I think It is not possible. Keeping hair, not consuming alcohal or tobacco does not mean a true sikh but these things are a part of it may be in major.

i am wonderinggggggggggggggggggg...:interestedmunda: