The Great Imp Debate

An imp is a mythological being similar to a fairy or demon, frequently described in folklore and superstition.

Do they exist, do they not?

Harry ji

Maybe you would give me/us some background on the "imp" and why it should be debated. I see it come up as a minor topic in different threads, but have never understood what was going on. Does this have anything to do with bhoots, preets, ghost or goblins, as referred to in Gurbani? Please clarify.

In other post you have replied to my furnishing proof of Gurbani accepting the existence of spoofs, spirits and imps etc.


Now let me know whether you agree to Gurbani that I have posted or refuse to accept.


In my opinion SPN is a forum of sincere and respectable persons and therefor I wish that the good name of the Forum is not tarnished.


There is no place to taunt each other while discussing. Replying irrelevant replies gives away that person's mental status.

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Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.

Sorry to intervene again. We want the thread to get off to a decent start. Now that we have the background, here are some suggestions and ground rules.

1. Debates in Hard Talk are supposed to be lightly moderated so everyone feels free to speak his mind. That however does not mean that inflammatory language would be tolerated 100 percent of the time.

2 There has to be an issue which we can all grasp. Based on what I am reading so far, the debate is about

Proof of Gurbani accepting the existence of spoofs, spirits and imps​

3. The debate has to have some backbone in reliable sources such as SGGS, Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, scientific articles, serious blogs with serious content, etc. Inflammatory material or sensationalism from places like facebook, YouTube or Yahoo weird news may be deleted without notice.

Carry on!

I appreciate that the debate was created so that another thread does not get hijacked.

harry haller said:

Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.

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Are we being serious about the above ??
Were they dancing and eating fish ??:grinningsingh:

Yes take it seriously. My own father reported something very similar once. He was not that old, so it cannot be blamed on old-age.

To stay on track.... what support is there from Gurbani?

Has anyone seen this episode?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_at_20,000_Feet

The pain point is that ... the experience of seeing an imp is limited to the observer. We don't have technology for shared sight yet!

Oh what fun!!
Here in Mexico there is a widespread belief in "Duendes" which roughly translates a elf.
Supposedly they come to your house in the night and wash the dishes. I'm not kidding.
Unfortunately they've never come to my house.
When I asked my mother in law, a great believer in duendes, why no one has ever found duende bones. She told me that " they go to another dimension " you can't argue with that! My sister in law says they have the power to make you think your dreaming, yet another irrefutable argument.
I just shake my head and enjoy the folklore.

But the fact that ALL cultures around the world, even isolated ones, share the same belief raises interesting questions.

Questions that I think some people are too quick to dismiss.

harry haller said:

Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.

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Rather than coming under you influence on the belief that there are no bhoot, prets, imps, spirits I will have faith on what I experienced in 1945, when my friend asked for rice and fish after the happening and the Doctor refused to allow and my friend die the same night.
It is immaterial you or anybody believes it or not. As I cannot show you a bhoot, pret, imp or a spirit so you cannot show me God. But God is there and so the evil spirits.
And Gurbani accepts these things are there (while asking us not to be afraid of them, which is another issue as we are discussing their existence)

I don't know if imps can be called Toyol. But there are many toyols in my neighborhood. One is a regular visitor to my house every night. I have dogs and cats and this invisible visitor who makes a peculiar sound every night at midnight or after midnight asking for 'his food'. Which is apparently lighting a joss stick scent.

Just yesterday I had put his josstiick near the wash basin for easy disposal of the ash. But I forgot about the dhoop and went to wash my hand and it went off with sprinkled water touching it. Immediately, he sounded his 'need' again. So I lit the dhoop (jossstick) again and even opened my back door where he usually comes to receive the scent. He didn't object because he knows that I only open my backdoor to feed the puppies.

In another instance, these toyols (imvisible to the naked eye) which are no more than the size of a small monkey, take the opportunity to enter the kitchen area of every home to partake the freshly discarded food from the bin. The fresher the food, the tastier it is to them. One day I had just boiled some home-made remedies and cooled the contents for refrigeration. The left over was still warm and I had left my main door open at night. This guy came in without my knowledge. When I closed the door, and went to my room, I heard scratching sounds at the door as if the cat was scratching the door. But then I realized that the sound is from the inside and not from the outside of the door. It startled me. That was kind of first experience for me.

But these days, I sometimes miss these invisible beings when they don't come by. However, there are other ghosts in my house. They don't disturb me but help me my making sounds and coaxing me to get up . When I do get up I see that I have not locked my main door or my car. When my daughter came by with her kids to spend her weekend at my place, she was supposed to stay two nights but cut it short to only one night. So told me of disturbances like a man disturbing her while half asleep. In the morning she asked me if there are entities in this house, I said YES. The same thing happened to my friend who put up a night in my house. He told me of being unable to sleep like there was a presence.

But you know, they don't bother me and I know they exist in every house even in the Gurdwaras.

In another instance, these toyols (imvisible to the naked eye) which are no more than the size of a small monkey, take the opportunity to enter the kitchen area of every home to partake the freshly discarded food from the bin.

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Did you see the invisible being picking up the food?

They are invisible to the naked eye. Over the years, I have shared real ghost stories with many people and what I write here is just the tip of an iceberg. People even ca,e to me thinking that I am a ghost buster, but you don't have to be. Just understand our bani that there are many such entities and also understand that they have their purpose just as we do. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko, Bahar Hukam Na Koye...

But have you seen food disappearing into thin air? Another thing, I live on the second floor. Are you on the ground floor? I know the ground floor is visited by rodents, cats and what not!

Invisible beings don't eat physical food. Only their subtle energies. There seem to be some kind of laws they abide to. There seems to be a hierarchy amongst the various beings. More like a caste system (this is only my own opinion). They can read your thoughts if food is being presented to them by you as is usually widely practiced by Chinese Buddhists. The caste system allows the higher entities to partake the subtle energies before the lower entities are allowed to.

We can only form opinions from the rate (time speed) the food becomes stale and even cats won't eat the left overs after that.

When my daughter came by with her kids

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Astroboyji

in your photo you look in your early twenties, what magic is this?

I am a grandfather at 57. Many have told me I don't even look 45.

Astroboy said:

They are invisible to the naked eye. Over the years, I have shared real ghost stories with many people and what I write here is just the tip of an iceberg. People even ca,e to me thinking that I am a ghost buster, but you don't have to be. Just understand our bani that there are many such entities and also understand that they have their purpose just as we do. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko, Bahar Hukam Na Koye...

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Let us see how Bhagat kabir describe the pret, 'ਘਰ ਕੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਹਿਤੁ ਜਾ ਸਿਉ ਸਦਾ ਰਹਤ ਸੰਗ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਜਬ ਹੀ ਹੰਸ ਤਜੀ ਇਹ ਕਾਂਇਆ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਗੀ ॥੨॥ Your wife, whom you love so much, and who has remained ever attached to you runs away crying, "Ghost! Ghost!", as soon as the swan-soul leaves this body. ||2|| p.634. First of all linking this sabd with married lady contradicts the universality of gurbani as it is not necessary that husband only dies first. Further literal translation of this sabd raises a logical question, 'do we expect from a lady whose husband is dead to lighten incense and make round around the dead husband, other than feeling sorry and take his body for final creation. When wife dies, husband also feels sorry accordingly, then why are we biased towards woman and pass comments on her.


Then who is, this 'ghar ki naar' in above pankti. Let us contemplate on rahao pankti which is the central idea of this sabd, 'pritam jaan lehu mann mahi' guru sahib is pointing towards himself as a first person - so over here 'ghar ki naar' is my 'maligned intellect - un-illuminated mind' who has developed his own philosophy or his own intelligence and is emotionally attached with it. Here I would like to refer, my interaction with a local muslim who used to hit his head on the qoran and ground as a part of his prayer (like we sikh have developed a habit sitting in a corner and repeat waheguru) and had developed a deep cut on his forehead. When I suggested may be by actual reading of qoran it could be more helpful. I was told 'you pray your way and I will pray mine'. It is hard to say what motivates such people. After wards when I start observing different muslim, I noticed hundreds and thousands have such cut on their forehead.

Therefore meaning of, 'Jab Hee Hans Thajee Eih Kaaneiaa Praeth Praeth Kar Bhaagee' when I forsake 'hans birti' divine intellect, my body become 'prat jivan di bhagi or grave yard where only ghost resides or ghost birti becomes part of my thought process as Kabir ji has rightly said, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਘਰ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਸੇਵੀਅਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ਤੇ ਘਰ ਮਰਹਟ ਸਾਰਖੇ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੧੯੨॥ - those houses in which neither the divine wisdom nor God are served those houses are like cremation grounds, demons dwells within that body. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 1374.16. Thus it has got nothing to do with soul or death. Here 'bhaagi' is not run away but accountable birti.

Best regards
sahni

Luckysingh said:

Are we being serious about the above ??
Were they dancing and eating fish ??:grinningsingh:

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I believe I had said that the imps were jumping around the leaves on which 7 heaps of rice and a fish on it were placed. My friend didn't see it ( or it may not have been visible to him ). He went along the path along the rice and fish placed on a leaf and died the same night asking for fish and rice which the doctor advised not to be given. This is my personal experience and is not at mercy for anybody's acceptance. Believe it or boldly say I am lying.
I had asked you if you can show me the God I will show you the imps. Both exist but one cannot say, 'Look, there is God or there is an imp" But is very much there and so the imps which I saw in 1945.
Will you show me God that is omnipresent!

He went along the path along the rice and fish placed on a leaf

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Were those dried leaves on ground?

We assume that you are telling the truth. But you could have seen some animal which you imagined to be an imp! Imps are not scientifically documented.

Gurbani and Waheguru are pillars on which we live our life. Imps are based on rare sightings by certain individuals. The folklore has already given you a mental picture of how it would look like. You just need someone who fits 90% of it right?