The Inner Experience And The Subconscious Mind

heoric · Dec 5, 2013

This post has been moved from http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ces-inner-vision-awakened-one.html#post194030 to begin this thread. spnadmin

harry haller said:
Chazji

This hiding away in dark rooms seems to me to be only for the self :interestedsingh:

Its when we go into inner silence that we can connect with our inner self
!Meditation helps us in many ways.
Inner silence is very healing for our Bodies too !

The mind consists of 3 levels as I have been taught and learnt through Meditation

Conscious mind, Subconscious and Super Conscious Mind.

Day to day we make our decisions with our Conscious mind. This lower mind is
also called our EGO mind. This is our tarnished Judgemental mind, its affected by what we see and what it hears. This mind judges everything it sees.

Our Subconscious Mind (SM) even though we are unaware of it, is constantly monitoring and recording daily thoughts, words, and experiences. It remembers everything even though our conscious mind may have long forgotten!

Daily we are bombarded by TV, advertisement posters and other
SUBLIME lucrative sights which are stored into our subconscious mind.
We then unconsciously become controlled by the messages we have received.

A Hypnotist can access Subconscious mind (SM) by Hypnotism and tap into forgotten records especially our past lives as in its Computer is recorded everything. Its linked to our Book of Life, -
our Akashic Records.

While the conscious mind is often affected by the subconscious, it has the ability to program the subconscious. What we say to ourselves and others, and what we think to ourselves- especially if we have strong emotions, thought and words- is registered in our subconscious memory bank.
The subconscious does not Judge.
It records and replays Negative as well as Positive thoughts emotions & experiences!

If we say "I am sick of driving in this traffic every day",
This is recorded into our SM. Then we really become depressed and sick.
Its our SM now feeding into our Conscious mind. "you are sick of traffic, You are sick of Traffic" !

"Watch your thoughts, actions and words."

If we think " I am sick of that person, he is not good"
Every time we see or think of the person, the Subconscious mind (SM), starts
the process of filtering into our Ego Lower mind, "You are becoming sick, he is no good".
You then become sick and angry when you see him.

This is why the Sages say "Do Not Judge"
When we judge we record this judgement into our Subconscious mind (SM).
The process then starts again.

We have the Power to re program our mind with Positive thoughts.
"Think Positive and Do not Judge".

The Super Conscious Mind is our Pure Untarnished link to the Divine.
Jesus called it "Father within"

Meditation allows us eventually to connect to our Super Conscious Mind,
However to move forward we have to clean our Hard Drive in our
Sub Conscious mind Computer.
How can we do this ?
Meditation is one way to clean our hard drive which is so full of junk.

Its a well proven Scientific fact that Meditation calm us and
takes us into inner piece

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S1sZNbRH2N8

This is an extraordinary story of one Saint , Swami Rama
on you utube :

Swami Rama the Himalayan Master, part 1

Luckysingh · Dec 6, 2013

Good stuff !:winkingmunda:

This stuff is very interesting as well as fascinating.
The Subconscious mind is much more smarter than we imagine. It is the part of the mind that is responsible for our dreams.
The other fascinating ability is that it gives us and solves the problems and issues of the conscious mind via MESSAGES in the form of Metaphors in our dreams!-Just like some Gurbani messages.
If we tap into these metaphors and messages correctly, it can help us dramatically in our self development.

The conscious mind makes decisions and solves by the conditioned manner of memory, brain and sadly our 5 thieves. Which is why we often make too many Conscious mistakes, whereas the subconscious knows much more than we imagine. I would say that the subconscious is more aligned with the Truth and therefore has more inner shabad influence.

The subconscious also has the ability to pick up our changes in emotions and feelings, which can also be directed via metaphors into our dreams. For eg, certain fears or problems can get answered by the subconscious, providing we interpret the dream correctly. Whereas our Conscious mind again uses the conditioned memory and brain to make calculated decisions.

Understanding subconscious and intuition is definitely helped with meditation and my personal experiences can vouch for this !:winkingmunda:

As mentioned above, I do also believe that the Subconscious is more aligned with the Truth and therefore much more stronger in the God property within compared to the Conscious mind.
Conscious mind gets fed and influenced by the 5 chor far too easily.
Subconscious only reveals the truth to you, providing it is interpreted correctly.

I've seen a couple of other Swami Rama videos, and he does quote Guru Nanak a few times when talking about a nirgun (formless) God and also simran.

Harry Haller · Dec 6, 2013

Its when we go into inner silence that we can connect with our inner self

Funny that, I am currently connecting with my inner self as I am writing, despite the extremely loud heavy metal in the background.

Meditation helps us in many ways.

Sikh living helps those around us rather than solely ourselves

The mind consists of 3 levels as I have been taught and learnt through Meditation

oh just the three then, I must be a madman, I have counted many more.

Conscious mind, Subconscious and Super Conscious Mind.

you seem to have missed out super duper conscious mind with jam on top......

Day to day we make our decisions with our Conscious mind. This lower mind is
also called our EGO mind. This is our tarnished Judgemental mind, its affected by what we see and what it hears. This mind judges everything it sees.

Our Subconscious Mind (SM) even though we are unaware of it, is constantly monitoring and recording daily thoughts, words, and experiences. It remembers everything even though our conscious mind may have long forgotten!

Daily we are bombarded by TV, advertisement posters and other
SUBLIME lucrative sights which are stored into our subconscious mind.
We then unconsciously become controlled by the messages we have received.

A Hypnotist can access Subconscious mind (SM) by Hypnotism and tap into forgotten records especially our past lives as in its Computer is recorded everything. Its linked to our Book of Life, -
our Akashic Records.

our Akashic records? I am a Sikh, I will die and be dust soon, then I will be nothing, other than what people remember of me, that is the only book of life I have, perhaps if people concentrated more on this life rather than past and future lives, it might be a more productive and precious life, although I dare say a few charlatans would be out of employment.

The question is, 'who does meditation help?' , the answer is the self, Did Guru Nanak ji spend his life meditating? no, he did not, he walked, he met people, he talked, he interacted, he wrote, in fact, he did the opposite of meditating, he did not retreat into the self, he elevated the self to interact with Creation.

Harry Haller · Dec 6, 2013

Luckysingh said:
Good stuff !:winkingmunda:

This stuff is very interesting as well as fascinating.
The Subconscious mind is much more smarter than we imagine. It is the part of the mind that is responsible for our dreams.
The other fascinating ability is that it gives us and solves the problems and issues of the conscious mind via MESSAGES in the form of Metaphors in our dreams!-Just like some Gurbani messages.
If we tap into these metaphors and messages correctly, it can help us dramatically in our self development.

The conscious mind makes decisions and solves by the conditioned manner of memory, brain and sadly our 5 thieves. Which is why we often make too many Conscious mistakes, whereas the subconscious knows much more than we imagine. I would say that the subconscious is more aligned with the Truth and therefore has more inner shabad influence.

The subconscious also has the ability to pick up our changes in emotions and feelings, which can also be directed via metaphors into our dreams. For eg, certain fears or problems can get answered by the subconscious, providing we interpret the dream correctly. Whereas our Conscious mind again uses the conditioned memory and brain to make calculated decisions.

Understanding subconscious and intuition is definitely helped with meditation and my personal experiences can vouch for this !:winkingmunda:

As mentioned above, I do also believe that the Subconscious is more aligned with the Truth and therefore much more stronger in the God property within compared to the Conscious mind.
Conscious mind gets fed and influenced by the 5 chor far too easily.
Subconscious only reveals the truth to you, providing it is interpreted correctly.

And then after we can kill a few chickens and dissect entrails just to back up the message from our dreams!

lol lol lol

Luckysingh · Dec 6, 2013

harry haller said:
And then after we can kill a few chickens and dissect entrails just to back up the message from our dreams!

lol lol lol

Is that a dream you had ?

Harry Haller · Dec 6, 2013

Luckysingh said:
Is that a dream you had ?

no, I do not take any notice of mine

Luckysingh · Dec 7, 2013

harry haller said:
Funny that, I am currently connecting with my inner self as I am writing, despite the extremely loud heavy metal in the background.

No, you are not connecting to your inner self, Your ego tells you so and is fooling you !

The question is, 'who does meditation help?' , the answer is the self,

Sorry, wrong answer again. ''SELF'' is your ego, meditation takes your further away from this.

Did Guru Nanak ji spend his life meditating

Click to expand...

YES,
Guru Nanak ji was in MEDITATION 24/7 with every breath and morsel of food !

he did the opposite of meditating, he did not retreat into the self, he elevated the self to interact with Creation.

What's the point in you trying to define ''meditation'' with your own SELF made definition, when you don't understand it in any way ??

AND not taking any notice of your dreams is nothing to be proud of.
This just shows just how FAR away you are from your inner self !

Harry Haller · Dec 7, 2013

No, you are not connecting to your inner self, Your ego tells you so and is fooling you !

I do sincerely believe I am a madman, however, I have to confess to not being so sure of your above statement, when I do bad, or think bad, or talk bad, I am aware of the badness, when I think good, talk good, or do good, again, I know what is good, maybe I am lucky in that respect, I seem to have a fairly good grasp of what is right and what is not, that I choose to embrace what is wrong more often is a personal failing, but no, I am not familiar with these internal tricks you speak of.

Sorry, wrong answer again. ''SELF'' is your ego, meditation takes your further away from this.

Apologies, I am not very good at this, as you can see, so the ego is infact the self, and it tricks me, and meditation resolves this, does it resolve this just during meditation, or does it work afterwards too?

YES,
Guru Nanak ji was in MEDITATION 24/7 with every breath and morsel of food !

was he? I would say he was in connection, he was sharing with Creation, he was educating, teaching, the picture I have of our first Guru is not a man deep in meditation, but deep in Creation.

What's the point in you trying to define ''meditation'' with your own SELF made definition, when you don't understand it in any way ??

maybe I don't, why do you not furnish me with a definition as per your understanding so I may learn.

AND not taking any notice of your dreams is nothing to be proud of.
This just shows just how FAR away you are from your inner self !

because God speaks to us in our dreams? oh well, good luck with that one but I think I will pass on the dream dissection, somehow I do not think there is any meaning in my last dream, a giant toad playing the bagpipes whilst eating a bacon sandwich, (the toad, not me), oh well, if thats my inner self, I am glad I am FAR away from it!

heoric · Dec 7, 2013

When we transcend from lower conscious / our Ego mind into the higher State through meditation, what happens is amazing.

Daily we interact with people who carry their own life struggles problems and other issues.
Our Aura is similar to a magnet.
Their problems stick to us. They are similar to a negative energy magnet.

Think about this, when we interact with some people they leave us drained of energy.
We go away being totally drained of energy.

What they have done is tapped into our aura and Zapped our strength.
They walk away refreshed leaving us drained.

During Meditation in the Depth of Silence these negative energy attachments which have attached to us, drop away.

They cannot stand the silence.

They ABHOR SILENCE

These negative energies would rather go elsewhere to a person say, listening to Heavy metal Rock!

Meditation leaves us refreshed and calm.

Luckysingh · Dec 8, 2013

harry haller said:
I do sincerely believe I am a madman, however, I have to confess to not being so sure of your above statement, when I do bad, or think bad, or talk bad, I am aware of the badness, when I think good, talk good, or do good, again, I know what is good, maybe I am lucky in that respect, I seem to have a fairly good grasp of what is right and what is not, that I choose to embrace what is wrong more often is a personal failing, but no, I am not familiar with these internal tricks you speak of.

This is something instilled in all of us. Call it the shabad or naam.However, we can easily delude ourselves and put on extra layers of veils to get away from it and not be influenced by it, which in turn can easily lead to doing bad deeds.
You feeling the difference between your good and bad, shows that you are not that far from your inner self or personal naam/shabad than you may think.
Let's put it this way, we all know that when One's mind is intoxicated via liquor or drugs, then the inhibitions to pursue an action that may lead to bad consequences, don't stop you. These inhibitions get masked and hidden from your true self- in effect, you move further away from your inner self. We end up doing things that we may regret in the future and we know that it was NOT our true self but our intoxicated lost self.

Apologies, I am not very good at this, as you can see, so the ego is infact the self, and it tricks me, and meditation resolves this, does it resolve this just during meditation, or does it work afterwards too?

Keeps on going at different rates for all of us depending on our dedication and devotion.
If you are doing it EMPTY, then you shall just stay where you are or even sink and that's what Guruji warns and advises against.
If there is meditation with no devotion, hunger or thirst to find the inner shabad/naam/God, then you are just chanting like you sing nursery rhymes at school.- this is EMPTY !

I would say he was in connection, he was sharing with Creation, he was educating, teaching, the picture I have of our first Guru is not a man deep in meditation, but deep in Creation.

The meditation about going to inner self is ALL about CONNECTION.
That is what you Feel if done properly with faith and devotion.

MEDIATION defn- why do you not furnish me with a definition as per your understanding so I may learn.

The definition would be ongoing and would change according to one's state or level of depth.
It's about listening, feeling and connecting. Then as you progress the Gian or spiritual knowledge just comes to you like a divine intuition, so to say.

because God speaks to us in our dreams? oh well, good luck with that one but I think I will pass on the dream dissection, somehow I do not think there is any meaning in my last dream, a giant toad playing the bagpipes whilst eating a bacon sandwich, (the toad, not me), oh well, if thats my inner self, I am glad I am FAR away from it!

No, God does not speak and shout out the commandments like he may have to Moses. But it is your Subconscious telling your conscious as mentioned in the op post.
Your Subconscious is much smarter than you imagine.

You actually sound like the perfect hypnotist candidate, because when someone has the approach and mindset that you do and you think that you can't implant anything into your subconscious, they do it for you and all in front of an audience.
They can prove that our conscious is so influenced by the subconscious.
After all, we get hypnotized every time we go to sleep and dream ! Unless you can control your dreams which means that your conscious is much more controlling over your subconscious.
Hypnosis is similar area, where you are in sleep like mode and your subconscious gets to control your conscious in the dream like state.

Harry Haller · Dec 8, 2013

When we transcend from lower conscious / our Ego mind into the higher State through meditation, what happens is amazing

Is not the greed, the desire for this amazing feeling in danger of creating an addiction?

Daily we interact with people who carry their own life struggles problems and other issues.
Our Aura is similar to a magnet.
Their problems stick to us. They are similar to a negative energy magnet.

Think about this, when we interact with some people they leave us drained of energy.
We go away being totally drained of energy.

Ah yes, the not so amazing bit, helping people, helping peoples problems, spending all day giving, yes, its a hinderence to the big enlightenment journey! Allow me to give you a hint, if you expect nothing back, you don't get drained!

During Meditation in the Depth of Silence these negative energy attachments which have attached to us, drop away.

They cannot stand the silence.

They ABHOR SILENCE

These negative energies would rather go elsewhere to a person say, listening to Heavy metal Rock!

thats fine, I collect negative energies, its a hobby of mine...in fact, if listening to 'heavy metal rock' enhances my ability to steal negative energy from another, I can think of no better way to spend my life.

Harry Haller · Dec 8, 2013

This is something instilled in all of us. Call it the shabad or naam.However, we can easily delude ourselves and put on extra layers of veils to get away from it and not be influenced by it, which in turn can easily lead to doing bad deeds.
You feeling the difference between your good and bad, shows that you are not that far from your inner self or personal naam/shabad than you may think.

inner self? personal naam? why are we complicating very simple matters with buzz words, what we are talking about is the truth.

If there is meditation with no devotion, hunger or thirst to find the inner shabad/naam/God, then you are just chanting like you sing nursery rhymes at school.- this is EMPTY !

here it is again, the hunger to find the inner smurf, or whatever it is, am I alone in having no wish or desire to find the inner smurf? The inner smurf does nothing for me, how does it help anyone? Is the search for the inner smurf not selfish? Can I not just interact with Creation to the best of my ability, hoovering up negative energy with my heavy metal rock and let my smurf reveal itself when Creator feels I have enouhg grace to do it justice?

The meditation about going to inner self is ALL about CONNECTION.
That is what you Feel if done properly with faith and devotion.

you could say that about any action.....

The definition would be ongoing and would change according to one's state or level of depth.
It's about listening, feeling and connecting. Then as you progress the Gian or spiritual knowledge just comes to you like a divine intuition, so to say.

thats your definition? you chide me on my inability to know what meditation is, but your definition is just made up of more buzzwords, what if I do not want Gian or spiritual knowledge? what if I am content being the bad energy hoover? it all seems very complicated to me, like some university degree, it fails the limus test on every level, Sikhism is a religion for the man in the street, its simplicity, its basic principles, easy to understand, yet, here we have snake oil salesmen trying to make it more complicated, is it elitism? is simple seeing Creator in everything and acting accordingly too boring? not sexy enough? do we have to know where our kunadlini is, where our third eye sees?, the tenth gate?

No, God does not speak and shout out the commandments like he may have to Moses. But it is your Subconscious telling your conscious as mentioned in the op post.
Your Subconscious is much smarter than you imagine.

anything that produces images of giant toads playing the bagpipes is probably smarter than I imagine

spnadmin · Dec 8, 2013

harry haller ji

Thanks for clearing it up the idea of "addiction" with your edit.

spnadmin · Dec 8, 2013

heoric ji

Daily we interact with people who carry their own life struggles problems and other issues.
Our Aura is similar to a magnet.

Their problems stick to us. They are similar to a negative energy magnet.

Think about this, when we interact with some people they leave us drained of energy.
We go away being totally drained of energy.

These thoughts are not endorsed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They do not arise from gurmat understanding of the journey to the divine within according to Guru Nanak. They typify why the life of a spiritual isolate was rejected by the Sikh Gurus. It is the ultimate ego-trip defined by selfishness and self-full-ness and absorption in one's personal salvation to the exclusion any one else. The philosophy contributed to the fall of India at the feet of oppressive forces for 1500 years. It left Hindu society disabled in the face of conquest, both unwilling and unable to cope with political reality until the advent of Guru Gobind Singh and for Hindus Shivaji, only to collapse once again before the British. It continued the oppression of women and untouchables for centuries, even after the efforts of Swami Vivekananda and the Brahmo movement attempted reform in the 19th Century. No one who understands Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji fails to recognize that the "filth" of lepers, victims of tuberculosis, mental illness, the poor and the outcaste NEVER cling to the person who finds God in the world. No one who understands Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji fails to recognize these words of Guru Nanak, "recognize humankind as one." Or that, truth is high but higher still is truthful living.

Maya is a veil, not what the veil has covered up. The world is not an illusion, our perceptions and our "as if" reactions "as if" perceptions are real are the illusion... or rather delusions. Trying to duck the negative influences of "maya" mens that someone else will take the blow for us. It means we are willing to step aside and allow that to happen. There is no justice in that.

Thread now moved for the second time. It is no longer in Hinduism, but in general Interfaith Dialogs, because we do not have a forum for it.

Luckysingh · Dec 8, 2013

Think about this, when we interact with some people they leave us drained of energy.
We go away being totally drained of energy.
What they have done is tapped into our aura and Zapped our strength.
They walk away refreshed leaving us drained.
During Meditation in the Depth of Silence these negative energy attachments which have attached to us, drop away.

I buy most of what you are saying here, or should I say, ''I understand''
It's just the play of words that makes it a difficult point to express and
the only ones that won't buy it are obviously the One's that are the negative energy drainers themselves !

What you are also saying is referring to the ''SADH SANGAT"- which most of us have a problem defining and seem to just confine it to the company of the holy.
The negative energy drainers are NOT the Sadh sangat..
You will be aware there is another thread where we are trying to understand this term once again.

Maya is a veil, not what the veil has covered up. The world is not an illusion, our perceptions and our "as if" reactions "as if" perceptions are real are the illusion... or rather delusions.

Maya does mean the illusion.
It is the illusion and veil that covers your True SElf/Inner self/JEEV/mool/jyot........
We should understand this at first and then we may realize what maya refers to.

Trying to duck the negative influences of "maya" mens that someone else will take the blow for us. It means we are willing to step aside and allow that to happen. There is no justice in that.

We are saying here, that ducking the influences of negative drainer will leave another to suffer instead.
That's not the idea from what i gather either. The idea is to maintain and accumulate as much positive influence that you can from the sadh sangat.
It is to rise above the negative drainers and don't let them drain you. The personal distance you keep and the space of interaction in between you and the negatives will determine to what extent they may have an affect on you.
Be The LOTUS in the ocean/river that gets across as gurbani says.
It's not about the Lotus ducking and diving or getting carried across by the wind or a bird......It's about getting across Unaffected.

Thread now moved for the second time. It is no longer in Hinduism, but in general Interfaith Dialogs, because we do not have a forum for it.

Why don't we have a thread that is only about all the issues that the a gurmukh is to disagree with or totally reject because it makes no sense ?
Issues like reincarnation,karma,meditation,simran, prayer/ardas,dasam bani, nitnem banis, meat, consciousness, jeeva/atma, inner self/inner knower=Antarjami,soul.........

Why don't we call it ''Taking the Soul out of Sikhi'' ?

Anyway, I am not gurmukh enough to be that lotus, so i have to take time out so that this forum doesn't drain my spirituality.
I'm gonna go and focus on my inner self or the Waheguru within me.
I'm gonna proceed with something that makes me feel like I'm more connected,....OR is that what they call the maya illusion ?
It can't be, because You have to absorbed in Self Ego to be drowned in the Maya/ Being connected to the Inner God/self is only achieved if you start to step out of the ego and the more you disconnect from it the closer and stronger your connection gets.

I may call it connection and taking my Surat inwards, you may call it chanting and yapping, even though I passed that stage a long time ago and do it all very silently.

I thought a sikh was supposed to be willing to learn and progress forward in spirituality rather than closing doors or picking and choosing what suits them.- I call that ''Pick N Mix''-
Anyhow, i shall have to leave as you guys continue to play 'Pick N Mix' not with some 'basset's allsorts', but with what others call a faith.

Waheguru

spnadmin · Dec 8, 2013

Whatever we are, Lucky ji, we are not a Bassett's Allsorts of new-age sloganism, Aquarian thinking, pseudo Hindu philosophy, and misunderstood ideas from cognitive psychology. Good luck on on your journey.

This thread is a patchwork quilt of all of that. Harry has been standing up to give the rejoinders. And what is "Lotus-ducking"" A mixed-metaphor? It is true that both the lotus and the duck are symbols of detachment in some contexts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Somehow I think that when we duck the world we also duck the lotus.

When you rethink "maya" do it from the ShabadGuru. One of Guru Nanak's great and revolutionary contributions was to straighten us out on the meaning of maya too, and whether the world is real.

spnadmin · Dec 8, 2013

Two things I would like to add as after-thoughts.

1. This is a forum. No one has been stopped from posting their views about spirituality from any philosophical perspective, new-age or otherwise. However, understand that disagreement comes with the territory. We won't always get a big pat on the back for our thoughts. Disagreement does not equal taking the soul out of Sikhi. What kind of soul could be so easily threatened by an opposing point of view?

2. It is possible to have an idealized version of Sikhi in mind. Anything that varies from it stirs up negative emotions, and we decide to withdraw from any contact with unpleasantness. Let's keep in mind that neither Guru Nanak nor Guru Gobind Singh took advantage of the luxury of withdrawal from unpleasantness. Their own writings suggest otherwise; their own writings suggest they actively engaged with it and cured many of hatred because they embraced all of the truth, not some of it. Guru Nanak and Babar; Guru Gobind Singh and Aurangzeb.

chazSingh · Dec 10, 2013

spnadmin said:
2. It is possible to have an idealized version of Sikhi in mind. Anything that varies from it stirs up negative emotions, and we decide to withdraw from any contact with unpleasantness. Let's keep in mind that neither Guru Nanak nor Guru Gobind Singh took advantage of the luxury of withdrawal from unpleasantness. Their own writings suggest otherwise; their own writings suggest they actively engaged with it and cured many of hatred because they embraced all of the truth, not some of it. Guru Nanak and Babar; Guru Gobind Singh and Aurangzeb.

i agree, we have no choice but to be a part of the positive and negative experience of life...the Guru's didnt shy away from both experiences...

but just like the Yin and Yang symbol which is made up of two parts...denotes the flowing dualistic nature of life, eventually the two segments fade away and you see only One symbol... i.e. God.

The Gurus didnt need to withdraw as although they were living in the dualistic nature of the world...they not only Saw it all as One, they experienced it all as One...

unfirtuantely for the rest of us submerged in Maya, we are immersed in the dualistic nature of the world...

For me, Meditation on the unchanging part of me (my Soul) helps to remove the constant focus on positive and negative and helps me see it all as One...bit by bit, day by day i think this realisation will come to fruition...

God bless

Harry Haller · Dec 11, 2013

Why don't we have a thread that is only about all the issues that the a gurmukh is to disagree with or totally reject because it makes no sense ?
Issues like reincarnation,karma,meditation,simran, prayer/ardas,dasam bani, nitnem banis, meat, consciousness, jeeva/atma, inner self/inner knower=Antarjami,soul.........

Why don't we call it ''Taking the Soul out of Sikhi'' ?

why don't we call it what it is, 'taking the Vedicism out of Sikhi'

Anyway, I am not gurmukh enough to be that lotus, so i have to take time out so that this forum doesn't drain my spirituality.
I'm gonna go and focus on my inner self or the Waheguru within me.
I'm gonna proceed with something that makes me feel like I'm more connected,....OR is that what they call the maya illusion ?

I believe you have answered your own question.I am disapointed that you are unable to have a calm debate about these issues without fear of draining spirituality, if I have contributed to that drain in any way, I sincerely apologise, it was not my intention to see you leave, you seemed one of the few people that could intelligently debate the topic whilst keeping a sense of humour, I have to confess, I do not get it, I never thought Sikhism was for the self, I cannot imagine Sikh heroes of old talking about 'how situations were draining positive energy', it all seems very new age to me.

I may call it connection and taking my Surat inwards, you may call it chanting and yapping, even though I passed that stage a long time ago and do it all very silently.

Luckyji, if you find it works for you, then more strength to you, I still do not understand why the subject is so precious, why everyone is so defensive, I do many many things on a daily basis people do not agree with, yet I really could not care less whether people agreed with me or not, if anything, I feel more comfortable doing things no one agrees with, on the basis that it must have some merit in that case!

I thought a sikh was supposed to be willing to learn and progress forward in spirituality rather than closing doors or picking and choosing what suits them.- I call that ''Pick N Mix''-
Anyhow, i shall have to leave as you guys continue to play 'Pick N Mix' not with some 'basset's allsorts', but with what others call a faith.

A Sikh is supposed to learn how to live in consonance and ultimately see Creator and Creation in everything, this forum has a tendency to close doors on Vedic rituals that have crept into Sikhism and turned it into a religion rather than a way of life.

chazSingh · Dec 11, 2013

harry haller said:
I never thought Sikhism was for the self

you're getting confused with self in a spiritual sense and self in a ego centered selfish sense

realising your true self in a spiritual sense is like being told you cannot walk and use a wheel chair all your life...and then one day taking the courage to get of the chair and realising you can walk...that you are so much more than what your ego has limited you to all your life...

of course, once this realisation comes into fruition...our true loving, compassionate character blossoms even more and we become 100% truthful servents to society...rather than servents working on the basis of some varying degree of conditions...

I do many many things on a daily basis people do not agree with, yet I really could not care less whether people agreed with me or not, if anything, I feel more comfortable doing things no one agrees with,

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you cannot compare this with Gurbani...their is a truth to this whole creation...a lot of it Gurbani says cannot be explained with language and has to be experienced first hand... the ones that experience elements of this truth and the underlying reality of this existance naturally want others to experience it also...

Gurbani is about awakening the society to realise God in all, not just say it, but realise it 100% and breath it...so that our exitance here becomes heavenly rather than destructive...

A Sikh is supposed to learn how to live in consonance and ultimately see Creator and Creation in everything, this forum has a tendency to close doors on Vedic rituals that have crept into Sikhism and turned it into a religion rather than a way of life.

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rituals are 100% not part of Sikhi.
but one must be able to see the difference between doing something mindlessly and mindfully

a person can read a novel and really contemplate it...another person can read a novel whilst their mind is on life problems...either way they are both reading...but their is a difference...

chanting waheguru thinking it will magically connect you to God is mindless chanting.

chanting waheguru because it keeps your Ego occupied so that we can concentrate on its vibration deep within (or any shabad) enveloping yourself in its meaning and what it encapsulates..
trying to stop the effects of all worries, life problems, anxieties, wayward thoughts for just a moment so that just maybe TRUE SIMRAN occurs i.e. an awakening to the reality of who you really are...REMEMBERING.

and thus Gurbani has succeeded in its task...

This is not mindless chanting...this is mindful chanting...

GOD created the mind, and He knows how we can untangle ourselved from its spell when we get entangled toooo deep

and it is all in Gurbani....to spend moments not indulging in our outer doors (senses) and looking within...and hopefully with his grace the hidden tenth door is opened (awakening of true consciousness) and with it knowledge of all of creation and beyond...

We are passionate about this because when you taste the apple, no matter how much someone tells you the apple wasnt sweet...WE KNOW IT WAS SWEET BECAUSE WE ATE IT.

just me being passionate again harry ji...

in no way am i saying what you do will not achieve a true living and realisation of Gurbani in Life...i hope it does
but i know for sure that what i do is not just mere mindless chanting or just some silly ritual...

God Bless ji

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The Inner Experience And The Subconscious Mind

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