Being Naamdhari Is Sikhi

Sikh Namdhari · Feb 8, 2007

Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,

Sat-Sri Akaal

I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).

I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.

Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?

Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)

Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.

When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.

Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.

How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.

WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]

WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?

NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU NANAK DEVJI.

All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.

The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.

In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'

This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!

They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:

A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM

IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?

ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 840,000.

SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.

So now I ask you:

How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?

Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.

All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the SIKHS of our great Master: The SATGURU.

Sat Sri Akaal

vaapaaraa · Feb 8, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

I will reply to your post but Are you even willing to follow Guru Granth Sahib ji shabad as the Guru?

jagmeet · Feb 16, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Sikh Namdhari said:
Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

While your statement on the 'mission' is correct, I don't think that 'Guru Nanak Dev ji did not want to create a new religion'.Tell me why do the namdharis keep hair?The work that was started by Guru Nanak Dev ji was 'completed' by Guru Gobind Singh ji.History (and majority) are on the side of mainstream Sikhs.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

ok, then complete the meaning of the line from gurbani.

Reacting briefly to your remaining post--what do you say of 'Agya bhai akal ki...'? What would be the interest of anyone to propagate 'Guru Granth Sahib' as the Guru--certainly there could be interest if someone proclaimed 'himself' as the guru.

simpy · Feb 16, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Sikh Namdhari said:
A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM

IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?

ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 360,000.

SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.

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Respected Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,

You are absolutely right on the issue of Amrit Sanchar….
Amrit bestowed by panj piaras in many Gurdwaras or otherwise is becoming no more than a drama these days. They claim that they are initiating the newly baptized whereas some of them, and in some cases all of them are far away from this concept in their real life.

Reht Maryada is fully shown in their outer appearance, but within they are totally unaware of the real maryada.

But on the other hand, when we claim that one must get it from a living Guru/SatGuru, because that person is immersed in Naam Himself… is not correct either.

Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being. A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly.

No body can sell salvation. Even if you claim you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out. Ultimate Blessing does not come so easy, one has to be absolutely pure.

You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any human living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done.

As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO???????

So instead of condemning each other, we must do our own inner cleansing and encourage others to do the same, irrespective of their faith.

Start with respecting all, as HE IS ALL.

Please forgive me if i hurt anybody's feelings..

Randip Singh · Feb 16, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Sikh Namdhari said:
Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,

Sat-Sri Akaal

I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).

I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.

Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?

Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)

Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.

When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.

Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.

How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.

WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]

WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?

NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU NANAK DEVJI.

All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.

The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.

In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'

This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!

They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:

A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM

IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?

ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 360,000.

SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.

So now I ask you:

How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?

Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.

All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the SIKHS of our great Master: The SATGURU.

Sat Sri Akaal

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Point 1 - According to Bani -

Page 308, Line 5
satgur kee banee sat sat kar jaanhu gursikhahu har kartaa aap muhhu kadhaa-ay.
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If Satgur ki Bani is the word of of Waheguru, then why do we need other human Guru's?

2) The Namdhari Baba has Jagjit Singh has issued an edict that no woman Sikh shall carry a Kirpan. This contradicts the edict of the 10th Master. Why does Jagjit Singh think he can contradict the word of the 10 th Master?

3) Why are you quoting a few word out of Bani.....why not the entire Shabad?

4) Guruji may have mentioned Avtars etc, but if you read Dasam Granth, all these so called Avtars, become victims of "Kaal" or time........in otherwords they died.....they were not God's because God is immortal and cannot die.

5) Where is your proof that Sikhism has evolved from western idea's in its present form? Miracles were as abhorent to the Guru's and they are to Sikhs today:

page 14

siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o.
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o.
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe -

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3||
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

Miracles are not the Sikh way.

6) Pages 1389 to 1390 sing the praises of Guru Nanak........does not praise the need of a human Guru....

also praises Shabad which is in Bani:

Page 1389, Line 12

gaava-o gun param guroo sukh saagar durat nivaaran sabad saray.
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.
Bard Kal-sahar - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

enough for now....will post later.

Randip Singh · Feb 16, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Sikh Namdhari said:
Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,

Sat-Sri Akaal

I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).

I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.

Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?

Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)

Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.

When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.

Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.

How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.

WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]

WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?

NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU NANAK DEVJI.

All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.

The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.

In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'

This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!

They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:

A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM

IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?

ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 360,000.

SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.

So now I ask you:

How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?

Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.

All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the SIKHS of our great Master: The SATGURU.

Sat Sri Akaal

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Point 1 - According to Bani -

Page 308, Line 5
satgur kee banee sat sat kar jaanhu gursikhahu har kartaa aap muhhu kadhaa-ay.
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If Satgur ki Bani is the word of of Waheguru, then why do we need other human Guru's?

2) The Namdhari Baba has Jagjit Singh has issued an edict that no woman Sikh shall carry a Kirpan. This contradicts the edict of the 10th Master. Why does Jagjit Singh think he can contradict the word of the 10 th Master?

3) Why are you quoting a few word out of Bani.....why not the entire Shabad?

4) Guruji may have mentioned Avtars etc, but if you read Dasam Granth, all these so called Avtars, become victims of "Kaal" or time........in otherwords they died.....they were not God's because God is immortal and cannot die.

5) Where is your proof that Sikhism has evolved from western idea's in its present form? Miracles were as abhorent to the Guru's and they are to Sikhs today:

page 14

siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o.
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o.
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe -

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3||
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

Miracles are not the Sikh way.

6) Pages 1389 to 1390 sing the praises of Guru Nanak........does not praise the need of a human Guru....

also praises Shabad which is in Bani:

Page 1389, Line 12

gaava-o gun param guroo sukh saagar durat nivaaran sabad saray.
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.
Bard Kal-sahar - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

enough for now....will post later.

Hai_Bhi_Sach · Feb 16, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,

Sat-Sri Akaal

I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).

I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.

Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?

Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)

Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.

When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.

Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.

How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

I do not agree with you on this point. Guru = Teacher, Gur = The Seed of Naam. The primary function of the Guru is to anoint one to the brotherhood and to sow the seed of Naam. Thereafter Guru tells you to go meditate and assimilate into the naam

I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.

When a new or refined idea is introduced into the main steam thinking or way of life, it takes a while to bring it home to the followers. The message of Guru Nanak Dev ji is even yet to be understood by so called Sikhs let alone off-chutes of Sikhism who have made a business out of telling people what the Bani says that fits their agenda.

If you study Guru Granth Sahib ji carefully, each subsequent guru has tried to elaborate the same message from a different point of view so that it can be brought home.

Had Guru Nanak Dev ji left us without someone holding the torch for a while then we would not have been any different to Islam or Christianity where the followers would have Engineered the bani to suit their agenda and watered down the message.

The irony of sikh followers is that we argue unnecessarily on the mechanics of the religion but refrain from following the teachings.

WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]

WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?

Bhatts have been granted a special place by the Gurus. What the Bhatts have said in the Sveyaes has been said whilst absorbed in love for the Guru. They have sung those praises in repentance of their earlier misconduct. It is not for us to challenge that. At the same time it shows that Our Gurus are very forgiving when one repents for their mistakes. In these verses Guru ji has accepted what is being said and given them honour. “Neechon Ooch kare mera Gobind”. Who are we to criticise.

NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU NANAK DEVJI.

All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.

bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]
Banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray.
Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Devine secrets are contained.
(In this verse it has been established that Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani)

guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] Page 982
guro banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||
In this verse (guru) means the combined effect of the Gur(The seed) and Guru(The Teacher) we will call it Guro for this explanation
Bani says whatever Guro says the humble servants believe it as if the Guru has spoken to them in person (in reality, face to face). Those that have such a strong belief the Guru, The Guru, personally emancipates him.

Guru ji in this verse has shown so much confidence that his followers really believe and accept Bani as the Guru in person.

I am sorry I do not know what your agenda is. Mine is quite clear. This is the bani by our Fourth Guru. The idea of Guru Granth Sahib ji as final Guru emanates from here.

The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.

In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'

This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!

They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:

I do not believe in Dasam Granth as a Granth. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not give a seal of approval of this Title. Dasam Granth as it is called did not exist at the time of Guru ji, The contents therein are a collection of Guru jis personally written poetry as well as a collection of Kacchi Bani (Bani written in the same poetic style as guru ji himself by the 52 poets but not undergone Guru ji,s scrutiny). The poetry mimics the style of Gurus ji’s bani, the collectors have assumed it to be Guru ji’s poetry and have assembled it in one book under the name of Dasam Granth. Various “Sant Matts” have made up hilarious combination of events that attempt to link themselves with the lineage of our Gurus. How many personal Sacrifes has the lineage of your Guru Made for the sake of Sikhism. There have been numerous opportunities since Guru GobindSingh ji.

A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM

IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?

ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 360,000.

SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.

When the Panj pyaree enact the ceremony of Amrit Sanchar. The true Guru is abode them (Hazar Nazar). They are only performing a duty. Their personal life is of no consequence at that time. If they are not following the instructions of Guru ji in their personal lives then they will be answerable. Our third Guru ji says.

jy ko gur qy vymuKu hovY ibnu siqgur mukiq n pwvY ]
jay ko gur tay vaimukh hovai bin satgur mukat na paavai.
One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
pwvY mukiq n hor QY koeI puChu ibbykIAw jwey ]
paavai mukat na hor thai ko-ee puchhahu bibaykee-aa jaa-ay.
He shall not find liberation anywhere else either; go and ask the wise ones about this.
Anyk jUnI Brim AwvY ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ]
anayk joonee bharam aavai vin satgur mukat na paa-ay.
He shall wander through countless incarnations; without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
iPir mukiq pwey lwig crxI siqgurU sbdu suxwey ]
fir mukat paa-ay laag charnee satguroo sabad sunaa-ay.
But liberation is attained, when one is attached to the feet of the True Guru, chanting the Word of the Shabad.
khY nwnku vIcwir dyKhu ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ]22]
kahai naanak veechaar daykhhu vin satgur mukat na paa-ay. ||22||
Says Nanak, contemplate this and see, that without the True Guru, there is no liberation. ||22||
So you do not need to worry about that. It is all taken care of.

So now I ask you:

How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?

Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.

All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the SIKHS of our great Master: The SATGURU.

Sat Sri Akaal

We as Sikhs do have a Platform and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I myself do not condone having a human guru (in the form of a teacher – a guide) because at times it is necessary to clarify misunderstandings in interpretations of Guru ki Bani. But that can also be done via a Gurmukh. One that explains the Bani does not become a Guru in a Spiritual Sense and claim a seat among the Ten Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Just as one that reads a letter written by a husband and sent through his colleague to his beloved wife who is illiterate and asks the deliverer to read it for her. The deliverer by reading the contents cannot assume or become an automatic replacement of her husband.

Having said that I have great admiration for Sri Jagjit Singh ji for keeping the traditions of Sikhi alive. Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form. It is also my understanding that Sri Jagjit Singh ji does not consider himself as an equivalent of Guru Granth Sahib. He is seen to stop people bowing to him when he is in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is usually the followers that give these gentle god fearing people the title as a token of love for their service and the new generations fail to understand how it all started.

Finally, there is no bigotry in the message of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Bigotery lies in the understanding of those that misunderstand Gurus message and go off at a tangent. All the doors in four directions to Sikhism are open and are welcoming you back home.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh.
The above is my understanding and my belief and I stand to be corrected.

Randip Singh · Feb 17, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Hai_Bhi_Sach said:
Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form. It is also my understanding that Sri Jagjit Singh ji does not consider himself as an equivalent of Guru Granth Sahib. He is seen to stop people bowing to him when he is in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. .

On the contrary, I have witnessed him specifically telling people to bow to him........

He lives in a big house surrounded in luxury in Bhaini.........has a fleet of cars.

There is nothing humble about this fellow.

Hai_Bhi_Sach · Feb 18, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

On the contrary, I have witnessed him specifically telling people to bow to him........

As I said "I stand to be corrected" - point taken - it is possible that you may have had a more closer encounter with him.

He lives in a big house surrounded in luxury in Bhaini.........has a fleet of cars.

You would not expect Bill Gates to be living in a mid-terraced house in an over crowded street. - This is a cult - This Chap has a huge following and regard him as Guru - Living in Luxury may not entirely be his own choice. Public opinion counts. Most of the time people are put in such positions. Look at Ranjit Singh Dhaddrianwale!!

He sponsors a number of his followers to learn music from musicians from a range of background. At least he seems to be sharing that wealth. How many of the main stream Sikh Gurdwares are even prepared to collective sponsor even one school. I woul say he has a plus point there. We must give credit where it is due. We must learn that can be learned to improve our own house.

There is nothing humble about this fellow.

I have not seen this indvidual to be agressively propogating his cult. My comments on him are as an individual - again perhaps I have only seen one side of his personality.

tatkhalsa · Feb 25, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

WJKK WJKF

ppl in here who study stuff like this will understand WHY namdharis, nirankaris, radha soamis, are all simply cults and not sikhs....

THIS IS BECAUSE THEY FAIL TO FOLLOW BASIC PRINCIPLES OF SIKHI/SIKHISM WHICH ARE BOTH THE SAME THING... if it is my knowledge of this topic which you would like to question..

studying religious philosophy, ethics and theology at cambridge university (not boasting lol) and for many research projects I have looked in to cults and found that they have been formed usually, through arguments with people or in order to gain something for a person.. (i.e. money)

THEREFORE I CONCLUDE THAT THESE CULTS WILL NEVER BE CONSIDERED IN MY EYES OR ANY OTHER ABIDING AND DEDICATED SINGH/SIKH'S EYES...

bhul chuk maaf karo if i have caused any1 offence, any more qs, dnt hesitate to pm me.

WJKK WJKF!

Randip Singh · Feb 26, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Hai_Bhi_Sach said:
You would not expect Bill Gates to be living in a mid-terraced house in an over crowded street. - This is a cult - This Chap has a huge following and regard him as Guru - Living in Luxury may not entirely be his own choice. Public opinion counts. Most of the time people are put in such positions. Look at Ranjit Singh Dhaddrianwale!!

He sponsors a number of his followers to learn music from musicians from a range of background. At least he seems to be sharing that wealth. How many of the main stream Sikh Gurdwares are even prepared to collective sponsor even one school. I woul say he has a plus point there. We must give credit where it is due. We must learn that can be learned to improve our own house.

This fellow claims he is the 16th Guru....lets see and compare him to say Guru Nanak.

1) Guru Nanak even though from a rich family, chose to live in a humble house doing the low caste profession of farming. What does Jagjit Singh do......lives in a mansion, has a personal international property portfolio, has a feet of cars, does no work.

2) Guru Nanak stayed with a pooly low caste Vaish Tarkhan rather than a rich businessman. Jagjit Singh stays in the finest hotels and finest houses.

3) Guru Nanak saw women as the equal to men and women. Jagjit Singh openly discriminates between men and women.........he directly forbids women from wearing Kirpans.

I could go on, and mention also the lurid details of the alleged sex scandal he was involved in in Notiingham 15 years ago which led the entire Namdhari Sangat their to renounce him, and go back to mainstream Sikhism.

Hai_Bhi_Sach said:
I have not seen this indvidual to be agressively propogating his cult. My comments on him are as an individual - again perhaps I have only seen one side of his personality.

He doesn't need to agresively propogate because he is already in the lap of luxury. The sooner this cult ends the better. It is nothing more than Brahminism with turbans.

tatkhalsa · Feb 26, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

randip singh said:
[/color]

This fellow claims he is the 16th Guru....lets see and compare him to say Guru Nanak.

1) Guru Nanak even though from a rich family, chose to live in a humble house doing the low caste profession of farming. What does Jagjit Singh do......lives in a mansion, has a personal international property portfolio, has a feet of cars, does no work.

2) Guru Nanak stayed with a pooly low caste Vaish Tarkhan rather than a rich businessman. Jagjit Singh stays in the finest hotels and finest houses.

3) Guru Nanak saw women as the equal to men and women. Jagjit Singh openly discriminates between men and women.........he directly forbids women from wearing Kirpans.

I could go on, and mention also the lurid details of the alleged sex scandal he was involved in in Notiingham 15 years ago which led the entire Namdhari Sangat their to renounce him, and go back to mainstream Sikhism.

He doesn't need to agresively propogate because he is already in the lap of luxury. The sooner this cult ends the better. It is nothing more than Brahminism with turbans.

GUR FATEH!

Sikh Namdhari · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Randip Singh should drown in shame

Is this what he has learnt from studying Gurbani? He is a lier and a nindhak of the highest order.

1) Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji has NO property on His name AT ALL. All of the properties He uses are registered under the Panth's name. As for His cars, we the Sangat make sure that our Guru has the best of what He has given us.

2)He stays at the houses of His Sikhs whenever He travels, be they poor or rich. I should know, because He stayed at my parents house in England, and believe me, a 2 bedroom terraced house in Birmingham is hardly the lap of luxury.

3) This comment shows how little Randip knows about Namdhari Sikhs in general. No Namdhari Sikh wears the Kirpan in a Gathra. This Hukamnama was ordained on the Sikhs by Satguru Ram Singhji over a hundred years ago. We keep the kirpan as a symbol in our Kanga.
Men AND women, both.

As for his last comment. I am not going to lower myself to his level by answering this. He has just shown how far from the truth and Sikhi he really is.

I have not written this reply to badmash Randip. He is a bemukh nindhac, who if he reads the Gurbani he is championing, would know that to vilify someone (especially a Man who is known throughout the world as being a Sadhu Mahapursh, by his life's work) is punishable in the pits of Hell. Read Sukhmani Sahib.

It is written so that people who read his blasphemy also get to know the truth.

As for ending 'this cult': the British Empire and his traitorous ancestors couldn't end this Mahan Panth of Guru Nanak Devji and Satguru Ram Singhji.

People of his Cult of Hatred should relinquish their ego, fanatacism and do some Naam Simeran so that God may give them Smath to see His form in ALL Humanity.

sahilmakkar1983 · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
Respected Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,

You are absolutely right on the issue of Amrit Sanchar….
Amrit bestowed by panj piaras in many Gurdwaras or otherwise is becoming no more than a drama these days. They claim that they are initiating the newly baptized whereas some of them, and in some cases all of them are far away from this concept in their real life.

Reht Maryada is fully shown in their outer appearance, but within they are totally unaware of the real maryada.

But on the other hand, when we claim that one must get it from a living Guru/SatGuru, because that person is immersed in Naam Himself… is not correct either.

Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being. A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly.

No body can sell salvation. Even if you claim you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out. Ultimate Blessing does not come so easy, one has to be absolutely pure.

You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done.

As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO???????

So instead of condemning each other, we must do our own inner cleansing and encourage others to do the same, irrespective of their faith.

Start with respecting all, as HE IS ALL.

Please forgive me if i hurt anybody's feelings..

Respected Bhen ji

Nice view as always u give, As in other thread u mentioned that I misinterpret(But till now I have not recieved any correct interpretation from ur side),
So i will Just put some things from srigranth.org and will not give my Explanations, Please tell what u understand from it.

SO u WROTE
Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being.

BUT HOW TO RECOGNISE THE AMRIT, GURU OPENS TENTH DOOR... I will not explain(because u will say misinterpret) more .. so just see the quotes from srigranth.org
AND TRUE GURU's INTIATION IS NOT TALKS BUT OPENING OF TENTH DOOR.

PAGE 441-----------------------------------------------------
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
धावतु थम्हिआ सतिगुरि मिलिऐ दसवा दुआरु पाइआ ॥
Dhaavat thamiH-aa satgur mili-ai dasvaa du-aar paa-i-aa.
The outgoing, wandering soul, upon meeting the True Guru, opens the Tenth Gate.

ਤਿਥੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
तिथै अम्रित भोजनु सहज धुनि उपजै जितु सबदि जगतु थम्हि रहाइआ ॥
tithai amrit bhojan sahj Dhun upjai jit sabad jagat thamiH rahaa-i-aa.
There, Ambrosial Nectar is food and the celestial music resounds; the world is held spell-bound by the music of the Word.

PAGE 31--------------------------------------------

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
गुर के भाणे विचि अम्रितु है सहजे पावै कोइ ॥
gur kay bhaanay vich amrit hai sehjay paavai ko-ay.
The Amrit, the Ambrosial Nectar, is in the Guru's Will. With intuitive ease, it is obtained.

ਜਿਨਾ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪੀਆ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਇ ॥
जिना परापति तिन पीआ हउमै विचहु खोइ ॥
jinaa paraapat tin pee-aa ha-umai vichahu kho-ay.
Those who are destined to have it, drink it in; their egotism is eradicated from within.

PAGE 102----------------------------------------------------------

ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
सभ किछु घर महि बाहरि नाही ॥
sabh kichh ghar meh baahar naahee.
Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਟੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਹੀ ॥
बाहरि टोलै सो भरमि भुलाही ॥
baahar tolai so bharam bhulaahee.
One who searches outside is deluded by doubt.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी जिनी अंतरि पाइआ सो अंतरि बाहरि सुहेला जीउ ॥१॥
gur parsaadee jinee antar paa-i-aa so antar baahar suhaylaa jee-o. ||1||
By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1||

ਝਿਮਿ ਝਿਮਿ ਵਰਸੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰਾ ॥
झिमि झिमि वरसै अम्रित धारा ॥
jhim jhim varsai amrit Dhaaraa.
Slowly, gently, drop by drop, the stream of nectar trickles down within.

ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
मनु पीवै सुनि सबदु बीचारा ॥
man peevai sun sabad beechaaraa.
The mind drinks it in, hearing and reflecting on the Word of the Shabad.

PAGE 153--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
उलटिओ कमलु ब्रहमु बीचारि ॥
ulti-o kamal barahm beechaar.
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
अम्रित धार गगनि दस दुआरि ॥
amrit Dhaar gagan das du-aar.
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
त्रिभवणु बेधिआ आपि मुरारि ॥१॥
taribhavan bayDhi-aa aap muraar. ||1||
The Lord Himself is pervading the three worlds. ||1||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
रे मन मेरे भरमु न कीजै ॥
ray man mayray bharam na keejai.
O my mind, do not give in to doubt.

ਮਨਿ ਮਾਨਿਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मनि मानिऐ अम्रित रसु पीजै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

SO ALL STORY IS THAT, AMRIT COMES AFTER OPENING OF TENTH GATE, AND THAT TENTH GATE CAN BE OPENED ONLY BY PERFECT MASTER AS THE LINES EXPLAIN ABOVE

AND U WROTE----------------------------------------
(A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly.

No body can sell salvation. Even if you claim you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out. Ultimate Blessing does not come so easy, one has to be absolutely pure.

You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done.

As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO??????? )
FOR THESE THINGS I WILL PUT SOME MORE GURUBANI..
BUT AFTER UR REPLY

FORGIVE ME PLEASE

GURUFATEH

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form.

Naamdharis are just on the payroll of BJP/RSS.

Payback : Parkash Badal hands a check
of Rs. 50 lakhs to his Naamdhari guru

Panthic Weekly: Badal Promises Revival of Anti-Sikh ‘Namdhari’ Culthttp://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/3132/2007-02-28.html

Sikh Namdhari · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Harjas Kaurji

Go and read up on the vast Golden history of the Namdhari Sikhs before making naive and ignorant statements.

Parkash Singh Badal is doing a just service to the heros and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives during the British Empire and have been forgotten due to the efforts of Badal's predecessors who laid down the seeds of hatred against the Namdharis.
If he, as the leader of that organisation has woken up to the truth, isn't it time you forgot your brainwashing and woke up too?

He used to be the leader of agitations against Namdharis.

There is so much you people need to learn. I implore you - LEARN.

Sikh Namdhari · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Namdharis are preservers of all that is good in Sikhi. Not destroyers.

Learn first. Criticize later.

Anoop · Mar 29, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Ok...I am no expert like you guys, and i have not learnt much about sikhism or about the different castes, but i just want to ask one question...

What is NAAM...and what is SATSANG...
I heard that NAAM is the name of god, but i just dont understand what it is...i have a friend who taught me about NAAM, and Gyan...where he said he believes in SRI Ashutosh Maharaji, who believes in the teachings of sikhism and says that all religions are good, and that gyan is the purpose of life...i really don't understand what this is..he told me how maharaji has taught him about shabad which everyone has inside them...gods divine power... and that gyan is necessary to experience god...and that god is just an awesome experience...

I am just thinking...how hard it is for people to actually take Gyan, or to actually follow the teachings of many religions. How are we meant to know what is right and what is wrong... Theres like so many things to do, to experience god...knowing the NAAM, and satsang, and all this, its all confusing. I mean, i think its not fair on those who are not aware of this, how can god make it this difficult for those who know nothing about it. I am sure god wants to make things easier with the connection with him...I knw and understand that everything is god, and that only god exists...and I am sure that all we need is a disciplined mind and be good, and work hard...why all this 'GYAN and NAAM, and everything, i mean it sounds to complicated?...

Is anyone here, willing to share all this information, and correct me if i am wrong, or misunderstood,

Thankyou, much appreciated,
Anoop

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Parkash Singh Badal is doing a just service to the heros and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives during the British Empire.

And where are all the heroes and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives since the 1984 oppression? Be honest with facts. Badal and his fascist Hindutva sponsors are paying off Jagjit singh for his support of in the recent elections.

If he (Badal), as the leader of that organisation (SAD/RSS/BJP) has woken up to the truth, isn't it time you forgot your brainwashing and woke up too?

uh...you have got to be kidding. The problem is aggressive Naamdhari missionary efforts for mainstream Sikhs to accept their propaganda. I can accept you being Naamdhari. I cannot accept you as a Sikh of our Guruji, because you have a lineage outside of Guruji. To accept you as Sikhs we have to accept your lineage of gurus as valid thus nullifying the authority of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, because someone in human form is challenging to sit in His place. It is NEVER going to happen. The lineage of human Guru's is CLOSED after the tenth Master.

He used to be the leader of agitations against Namdharis.

I know exactly who he is. See the link below to clarify any misgivings.
(Support Sri Akal Takht Sahib)

Naamdharis are RSS/BJP traitors to the Panth just like Badal. Keep your government paycheck, your government collusion and silence in the face of oppression of Sikhs, and your Hindutva agenda of Hinduization of Gursikhi. Naamdharis impress no one but themselves.

Is it true that your lineage of gurus told you not to wear kirpan, but keep only as symbol since it is only for time of war? Yet, what do you call 1984 attack on Darbar Sahib and subsequent 20 year long oppression, illegal arrest and detainment without trial, torture and brutal execution of thousands of Sikhs? While this is happening, you expect people to believe that Guruji has kept the people disarmed and silent about it and receives paychecks from this government? This guru of yours is only a puppet of RSS/BJP/Hindutva masters. He, like Badal is only dancing for blood money.

Panthic Weekly: Illegitimate Charges Framed Against Sikh Nationalists

sahilmakkar1983 · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi

Please Reply Surinder bhen ji

sahilmakkar1983 said:
Respected Bhen ji

Nice view as always u give, As in other thread u mentioned that I misinterpret(But till now I have not recieved any correct interpretation from ur side),
So i will Just put some things from srigranth.org and will not give my Explanations, Please tell what u understand from it.

SO u WROTE
Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being.

BUT HOW TO RECOGNISE THE AMRIT, GURU OPENS TENTH DOOR... I will not explain(because u will say misinterpret) more .. so just see the quotes from srigranth.org
AND TRUE GURU's INTIATION IS NOT TALKS BUT OPENING OF TENTH DOOR.

PAGE 441-----------------------------------------------------
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
धावतु थम्हिआ सतिगुरि मिलिऐ दसवा दुआरु पाइआ ॥
Dhaavat thamiH-aa satgur mili-ai dasvaa du-aar paa-i-aa.
The outgoing, wandering soul, upon meeting the True Guru, opens the Tenth Gate.

ਤਿਥੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
तिथै अम्रित भोजनु सहज धुनि उपजै जितु सबदि जगतु थम्हि रहाइआ ॥
tithai amrit bhojan sahj Dhun upjai jit sabad jagat thamiH rahaa-i-aa.
There, Ambrosial Nectar is food and the celestial music resounds; the world is held spell-bound by the music of the Word.

PAGE 31--------------------------------------------

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
गुर के भाणे विचि अम्रितु है सहजे पावै कोइ ॥
gur kay bhaanay vich amrit hai sehjay paavai ko-ay.
The Amrit, the Ambrosial Nectar, is in the Guru's Will. With intuitive ease, it is obtained.

ਜਿਨਾ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪੀਆ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਇ ॥
जिना परापति तिन पीआ हउमै विचहु खोइ ॥
jinaa paraapat tin pee-aa ha-umai vichahu kho-ay.
Those who are destined to have it, drink it in; their egotism is eradicated from within.

PAGE 102----------------------------------------------------------

ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
सभ किछु घर महि बाहरि नाही ॥
sabh kichh ghar meh baahar naahee.
Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਟੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਹੀ ॥
बाहरि टोलै सो भरमि भुलाही ॥
baahar tolai so bharam bhulaahee.
One who searches outside is deluded by doubt.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी जिनी अंतरि पाइआ सो अंतरि बाहरि सुहेला जीउ ॥१॥
gur parsaadee jinee antar paa-i-aa so antar baahar suhaylaa jee-o. ||1||
By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1||

ਝਿਮਿ ਝਿਮਿ ਵਰਸੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰਾ ॥
झिमि झिमि वरसै अम्रित धारा ॥
jhim jhim varsai amrit Dhaaraa.
Slowly, gently, drop by drop, the stream of nectar trickles down within.

ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
मनु पीवै सुनि सबदु बीचारा ॥
man peevai sun sabad beechaaraa.
The mind drinks it in, hearing and reflecting on the Word of the Shabad.

PAGE 153--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
उलटिओ कमलु ब्रहमु बीचारि ॥
ulti-o kamal barahm beechaar.
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
अम्रित धार गगनि दस दुआरि ॥
amrit Dhaar gagan das du-aar.
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
त्रिभवणु बेधिआ आपि मुरारि ॥१॥
taribhavan bayDhi-aa aap muraar. ||1||
The Lord Himself is pervading the three worlds. ||1||

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
रे मन मेरे भरमु न कीजै ॥
ray man mayray bharam na keejai.
O my mind, do not give in to doubt.

ਮਨਿ ਮਾਨਿਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मनि मानिऐ अम्रित रसु पीजै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

SO ALL STORY IS THAT, AMRIT COMES AFTER OPENING OF TENTH GATE, AND THAT TENTH GATE CAN BE OPENED ONLY BY PERFECT MASTER AS THE LINES EXPLAIN ABOVE

AND U WROTE----------------------------------------
(A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly.

No body can sell salvation. Even if you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out.

You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done.

As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO??????? )
FOR THESE THINGS I WILL PUT SOME MORE GURUBANI..
BUT AFTER UR REPLY

FORGIVE ME PLEASE

GURUFATEH