Do Members Of Creation Really Need Humans?

Life will be just fine with or withour saviors for most life forms.

Why do humans thinks they are somehow special and need third parties to keep them going?

Isn't eat, sleep and be merry not enough just like most other forms of life. I believe it may be in large part true.

Any comments.

A bird still eats a worm. Why do you think we don't need third parties? Yes our basic needs have been exaggerated from simply eat and sleep to the countless desires and wishes we have now. I am still not sure what you are pointing at with third party~

Mighty Musketeer ,Thats a my kind of random question, maybe humans cannot stay merry because they need Soul food and not belly food.

Kanwaljit Singh said:

A bird still eats a worm. Why do you think we don't need third parties? Yes our basic needs have been exaggerated from simply eat and sleep to the countless desires and wishes we have now. I am still not sure what you are pointing at with third party~
Like Jesus, Krishna, Rama, Buddha, etc.,

Did creator give Goats a version of this or only us need such or not need such at all!

My understanding is you don't need none of the above named but understanding of creation all around and as much as possible.

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Sat Sri Akal.

None of the Prophets were third parties per se. All of them were in a way One of Us.

Goats probably had many saintly beings amongst them. But they could never write down their legacy and teachings.

Anyway we humans never bothered about knowing what the goats talk about!

Kanwaljit Singh said:

None of the Prophets were third parties per se. All of them were in a way One of Us.

Goats probably had many saintly beings amongst them. But they could never write down their legacy and teachings.

Anyway we humans never bothered about knowing what the goats talk about!

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Kanwaljit Singh ji so the question becomes as to do most life forms innately have ability to understand and live in consonance and we are born with it but then destroy it and then again some try to get back to it?

Sat Sri Akal.

Hmm Gurbani says that we get a chance to meet Waheguru in Human life, a chance which most of us are wasting. I am not sure if the chance to do good karma is zero or almost zero in animal life. But animals don't do bad karma either. Are they rules by 5 vices? Maybe. I have seen dog snatching bones from other dogs? Perhaps they don't even have a chance of thinking that Kam Krodh Lobh Moh Ahankar are killing them. They are sentient. They feel pain when someone snatches their bone or they are hurt.

The fact we can't differentiate what makes us human from animals shows we are unaware of the worth of human life.

Kanwaljit Singh said:

Hmm Gurbani says that we get a chance to meet Waheguru in Human life, a chance which most of us are wasting. I am not sure if the chance to do good karma is zero or almost zero in animal life. But animals don't do bad karma either. Are they rules by 5 vices? Maybe. I have seen dog snatching bones from other dogs? Perhaps they don't even have a chance of thinking that Kam Krodh Lobh Moh Ahankar are killing them. They are sentient. They feel pain when someone snatches their bone or they are hurt.

The fact we can't differentiate what makes us human from animals shows we are unaware of the worth of human life.
Assigning worth and determining worth of one or others is egoistic activity and laden with good elements of Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar?

Knowing oneself is the only element needed in Sikhism through understanding, knowing superiority of one life form over another is not Sikhism.

This is a basic flaw in the application of Sikhism religious thought through preachers.

It is also a fundamental flaw in Abrahamic religions. The hierarchies in Hinduism are no better either in same aspect.

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Sat Sri Akal.

I agree. But the problem is comparing need for Prophets or third parties in case of animals. I believe everything fits into place with whatever everyone is doing. The dogs and lions and elephants go upon doing what they are supposed to do anyway! We may think we are better than animals. Wolves may think they can hunt better than dogs. In the end they just come and go in thinking.

Kanwaljit Singh said:

I agree. But the problem is comparing need for Prophets or third parties in case of animals. I believe everything fits into place with whatever everyone is doing. The dogs and lions and elephants go upon doing what they are supposed to do anyway! We may think we are better than animals. Wolves may think they can hunt better than dogs. In the end they just come and go in thinking.

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So the above are living in consonance by default, do humans do? I know a child would if left alone!

Thanks fro your replies.

Sat Sri Akal.

Yes, kind of. But there are too many open ended questions! I don't know how our soul would be transferred to that of an animal or some other being. I don't know if my soul will make any progress in that lifetime. Let's forget tomorrow, and make progress today!

We seek answers animals do not. That is all it comes down to, if you ask a question there must be an answer. That is it really we wonder animals accept. An animals life is ignorance i guess, or blissfull living (depending on the depths that you discuss it, as I have noticed in life most things condradict, (when the condradictions make sense you realise without god it is all non-sense), but when you look deeply the animal has to hunt, forge, fend for itself etc.., To stay alive and you realize that what you are doing is the same, then you wonder what is the difference between you and the goat. The goat will accept why its surviving you will want an answer for survival. e.g. What's the point in survival if you are no better than a goat? We have through the ages been taught by wise men on how to be better in the survival of life, instead of living like a goat live like the definition that defines you, makes you nice. Makes you true, tuned to your soul.

Kanwaljit Singh said:

Yes, kind of. But there are too many open ended questions! I don't know how our soul would be transferred to that of an animal or some other being. I don't know if my soul will make any progress in that lifetime. Let's forget tomorrow, and make progress today!

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Veer Kanwaljit Singh ji there is no soul transfer/re-incarnation and absolutely not espoused in Sikhism.

Just to be clear.

Sat Sri Akal.

Parma ji thanks for your post. Just a comment on one aspect as below,

Parma said:

We seek answers animals do not.

1. I don't believe we know animal language. For example when you see a pack of 3 or more lions/lionesses sitting, you will rarely see them all facing the same way. They perhaps asked a question as to the best formation for watching all sides and came up with the following,

2. In this the pack of lionesses decide to conserve energy in a leisurely stroll while concentrating on their next plan of attack. Little useless chatter is apparent in nuances of the picture.

3. In the following each one is co-operating in a lookout formation and telling each other let me know if you see something!

That is all it comes down to, if you ask a question there must be an answer. That is it really we wonder animals accept.
Animals don't necessarily accept we believe they do! (see Example 4 below)
An animals life is ignorance i guess, or blissfull living (depending on the depths that you discuss it, as I have noticed in life most things condradict, (when the condradictions make sense you realise without god it is all non-sense), but when you look deeply the animal has to hunt, forge, fend for itself etc..,

To stay alive and you realize that what you are doing is the same, then you wonder what is the difference between you and the goat.
We need to perhaps stop here and scratch our head.

The goat will accept why its surviving you will want an answer for survival. e.g. What's the point in survival if you are no better than a goat? We have through the ages been taught by wise men on how to be better in the survival of life, instead of living like a goat live like the definition that defines you, makes you nice.
The animals are most adaptive to changing environment including letting the weak die, letting the population diminish or increase per available resources, etc.

Makes you true, tuned to your soul.
When someone confirms the lack of soul in animals I will buy the above in terms of tunes to your soul.

Example 4. A dog at the funeral of his partner soldier/owner.

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The above not really presented as a counterpoise but more of another way, perhaps, looking at things versus just one way.

Sat Sri Akal.

Maybe the animals are in fact wiser than we are. Although it must be noted that most domestic animals do treat their owners as a god, in the way they look and love them.

But if we are talking of wild animals, they do not question, they accept the warmth of the sun, the coolness of a breeze, the taste of fresh water, all that creator has provided, and I think they accept creator, with the minimum of fuss, and tradition, and ritual, they worship creator by existing as creator intended them to, nothing more, nothing less,

maybe we should be taking a leaf out of their book, instead of patting ourself on the back for having reason and the ability to turn something very simple into something very complicated

Harry Haller veer ji you get it so fast, are we twins peacesign
.... maybe we should be taking a leaf out of their book, instead of patting ourself on the back for having reason and the ability to turn something very simple into something very complicated
Isn't there a saying something like,

"It takes a fool to complicate and a genius to simplify"

I don't want to generalize but Humans must have more idiots or fools proportionately than any other life form. How many life forms kill their own with,

• Suicide belts
• Beheadings
• Gas chambers
• Wars and fighting
• Ethnic cleansing, a disgusting term invented to pretty paint murders of innocent people
• 1984 Porog or what ever, what is this pogrom turd, these were murders of innocent people and we can't call it "1984 Sikh Murders"
  
• Developing weapons of self and mass destruction

Alexandrine parrot saying stupid!!!!!!! - YouTube

If anyone of the spners finds one life form so doing, I will request of spnadmin ji to quickly close this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.

1) If animals have a language, why have they not increased there understanding of each other and the world surely it would make there world easier, to not try and make things easier for yourself goes against basic intelligence. So they accept their situation as their thinking however limited or significant it is, it is all they know and they don't try to strive to change it, they accept it. I guess animals do communicate with one another to a certain degree but I dont think that you could constitute that as something as complex as a language. I would call that instinct (feeling).

P.S. We have things in common with other species but I dont think your an animal try calling your best friend a dog and they may question your friendship and sanity. Please dont take that as an insult its a polite conversation. Not trying to be offensive, as when reading people can take things the wrong way.

I never said animals dont have souls. In the guru granth sahib it talks about reincarnation. So I guess the soul exsits but mukthi comes from following a thoughtful life. I thought this was a Sikh philosophy forum, look at sikh philosophy and it states the mention of the cycles and in this one you dont accept the situations you may use the guru granth sahibs guidance to find eternal peacepeacesign

This discussion is reminding me time and again of the (excuse me) Adam and Eve story. The story goes, they were living happily as God had intended them to in the Garden of Eden, with the minimum of fuss, to the point of not engaging in social habits like covering up their bodies (they had no sense of shame in their nakedness). Much like animals do.

It was only when they ate the apple of knowledge did they start showing all these evolved human traits and start questioning everything and making everything more complicated than it needs to be.

Satan tempted them to eat the apple of knowledge... and Satan is supposed to be the character which keeps you away from the right path. So really, it's saying the human mind's capacity to complicate things is what takes us further away from knowing our place in the created world.

I think that's why Gurbani is spectacular in that it describes the simple life of goodness, love and acceptance of Hukam. It doesn't complicate things! It says creation is so vast, you'll never understand it no matter how hard you try or how clever you think you are. So just be GOOD, and accept the wonder of creation.

That is my understanding, anyway.

Ambarsaria, other creatures can't kill each other like that because they don't have these fancy opposable-thumb thingies on their hands like we do.

Satan is in the thumb. Think twice before giving someone thumbs up!! lol

Disclaimer: Of course I'm being silly and referring to Satan as we are in the interfaith dialogue section - I know there is no character called Satan within Sikhi.

Ishna ji, :thumbsupp: peacesignmundahug

Sat Sri Akal.