The God Element

CuriousCour · Mar 6, 2011

Why does the god element get incorporated into the message.Is it a way to get people to surrender and conform to the teachings?Because if not they won't be saved from harm and unpleasantness?
"The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God."..How do the guru's know this is the truth?
And if you believe it is true because they've said it is, is that not blindly following?

I think that the gurus deliver valuable principles but why does god come into it?

msbaath · Mar 7, 2011

CuriousCour ji
there is evidence of god everywhere, all this clever creation cant be a spontaeous accident
and you say we cant be sure if gurus are speaking the truth
i agree with you we need to be skeptical
but the proof that gurus are a trustworthty source is very evident
two of our gurus have sacrificed their life for their beleif and philosophy
that means they were very sure of what they were saying
had they said something thats not true that would have implied that they are dishonest. and i dont believe a dishonest person can sacrifice his life for something
besides what gurus say is confirmed by enlightened persons of all ages and places
i dont know about you but all my skepticism has died its own death
we have examples of people who die and kill in expectation of a heaven and hooris but they are fools(fools rush where angels fear to tread)

spnadmin · Mar 7, 2011

angie ji

I agree with your point of view. Just a factual correction: more than 2 of our gurus sacrificed their lives for what we believe.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

Why does the god element get incorporated into the message.Is it a way to get people to surrender and conform to the teachings?Because if not they won't be saved from harm and unpleasantness?
"The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God."..How do the guru's know this is the truth?
And if you believe it is true because they've said it is, is that not blindly following?
I think that the gurus deliver valuable principles but why does god come into it?

First of all, it is nice you see the valuable principles Guru has given us. So anything else Guru has given us is valuable too. Including the concept of God. And now when he has given us concept of God, you have to forget any other God concept anyone else has given you. You have to unlearn about God to the point that God exists. Guru says God exists. And now you have to get into the ocean of pearls of Guru Granth Sahib. And find out about God. For this definition and understanding of God will be totally different from what you have heard so far.

Archived_member14 · Mar 7, 2011

Msbaath ji,

Quote:
“besides what gurus say is confirmed by enlightened persons of all ages and places”

Since it has always been my suspicion that this might be the case but not having had any clear evidence, I am not singling you out in asking you these questions.

From general observation I have come to the conclusion that Hindus and Sikhs respect the Buddha to a lesser or larger degree. If anyone amongst them really believed that he was enlightened, this could however only be as a result of hearsay. I am not sure if you include the Buddha in the “enlightened persons of all ages and places” referred to above. But if you have, I’d like to ask you this:

Did the Buddha believe in God? Are his teachings aimed at the realization of God’s existence?

I ask this in order to help clear my suspicion, but of course you are not obliged to answer if you do not want to.

In a short while I leave and will be away for three days and therefore will not be able to respond.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

Budhha didn't believe in existence of God, nor he asked to go for it. For he gave his followers an important task, to realize their own existence. To make their own existence meaningful, to connect to themselves. I assume that once you are at peace with yourself, you can ask where you came from and where you will go. We as Sikhs try and realize that we came from infinity and we go towards infinity and this present is just a part of that cycle. You are trying to mix two approaches.

Archived_member14 · Mar 7, 2011

Kjsinghhyd ji,

kjsinghhyd said:
Budhha didn't believe in existence of God, nor he asked to go for it. For he gave his followers an important task, to realize their own existence. To make their own existence meaningful, to connect to themselves. I assume that once you are at peace with yourself, you can ask where you came from and where you will go. We as Sikhs try and realize that we came from infinity and we go towards infinity and this present is just a part of that cycle. You are trying to mix two approaches.

Thank you for expressing your own understanding on this matter.

I have no intention to mix any two approaches, nor do I even take such things as being an “approach”, but was responding to Masbaath’s suggestion that all enlightened persons came to the same conclusion about the existence of God. Now either the Buddha was not an enlightened individual since he did not believe in the existence of God, or he did in fact believe in it but just didn’t make a categorical statement about it.

What I gather from your own statements is that it doesn’t matter if one believes in God or not, only that there is more than one way to achieve life’s goal. So I must ask you this; what do you understand by ‘enlightenment’. And to become enlightened is to be so, to what?

Now I must leave immediately.
Thanks.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

What I gather from your own statements is that it doesn’t matter if one believes in God or not

For Budhhists it doesn't matter if they believe in God or not. They do believe in Nirvana and ending cycle of Life and Death. We call this stage free from cycle as being that of merging with Waheguru. Buddhists on the other hand, don't mention God literally. And if you try and do research, they reject Creator of Universe as a deity or person. They reject the idea of trying to describe how the Universe was created. We reject it too. It is something which cannot be explained. For us, God is the Universe, God is the Truth. And such impersonal definition of God finds acceptance with Buddhists too. They reject god born on the 7th sky and creating Adam and Eve in 6 days concept.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

Suggested Reading:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Nanak_in_Sikkim,Ladakh_%26_Tibet

Ambarsaria · Mar 7, 2011

Confused said:
Kjsinghhyd ji,

Thank you for expressing your own understanding on this matter.

I have no intention to mix any two approaches, nor do I even take such things as being an “approach”, but was responding to Masbaath’s suggestion that all enlightened persons came to the same conclusion about the existence of God. Now either the Buddha was not an enlightened individual since he did not believe in the existence of God, or he did in fact believe in it but just didn’t make a categorical statement about it.

What I gather from your own statements is that it doesn’t matter if one believes in God or not, only that there is more than one way to achieve life’s goal. So I must ask you this; what do you understand by ‘enlightenment’. And to become enlightened is to be so, to what?

Now I must leave immediately.
Thanks.

Confused ji thanks for you post and the others in this thread too.

I want to pose the following,

If two people have enlightenment and they are asked to express it, would they express it the same way and agree about the sameness of such enlightenment?
Supposition:
- If Gautam Buddha was asked to describe his enlightenment without using the word God?
- If Guru Nanak was asked to describe his enlightenment without referring to God?
- Question: Would Gautam Buddha and Guru Nanak be close or far from each other?
  - Without having the benefit of their physical presence amidst us, I humbly submit that they will be closer rather than further to their realization. For me "great minds think alike but not 100% similar".
  - I am not psychic but based on my participation on these boards and dialogs (specifically with Confused ji and many other very great contributors, I humbly submit that my observations have some iota of merit.

I also submit that, no two people in the world would have exact same experience of enlightenment, or express and experience enlightenment the same way.
I also submit that search for 100% enlightenment is impossible as 100% will vary from person to person and it won't be identical. Hence comparing enlightenment is also fruitless.
- One could compare results of one's enlightenment in terms of our responses to various matters and perhaps concurrences and differentiations.

Not to prove just to learn, enjoy and share respectfully.

Sat Sri Akal.

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

Manne Ki Gatt Kahi na Jaye
The state of the faithful (enlightened) cannot be described

The problem is the way we understand enlightenment. It is not about giving boons, predicting stuff etc. It is about being wise. It is about having Knowledge. And knowledge is infinite. Can one measure infinity? No. Is infinity of one different from Infinity of other? No. See even our maths incorporate the God concept

Kanwaljit.Singh · Mar 7, 2011

Now more on infinity. 1/0 is also infinity and 2/0 is also infinity though 1!=2.

So what is common here?

0

When we become 0 we feel INFINITY

Shanger · Mar 7, 2011

CuriousCour said:
Why does the god element get incorporated into the message.Is it a way to get people to surrender and conform to the teachings?Because if not they won't be saved from harm and unpleasantness?
"The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God."..How do the guru's know this is the truth?
And if you believe it is true because they've said it is, is that not blindly following?

I think that the gurus deliver valuable principles but why does god come into it?

... this didnt go down to well when I asked this.

msbaath said:
CuriousCour ji
there is evidence of god everywhere, all this clever creation cant be a spontaeous accident
and you say we cant be sure if gurus are speaking the truth
i agree with you we need to be skeptical
but the proof that gurus are a trustworthty source is very evident
two of our gurus have sacrificed their life for their beleif and philosophy
that means they were very sure of what they were saying
had they said something thats not true that would have implied that they are dishonest. and i dont believe a dishonest person can sacrifice his life for something
besides what gurus say is confirmed by enlightened persons of all ages and places
i dont know about you but all my skepticism has died its own death
we have examples of people who die and kill in expectation of a heaven and hooris but they are fools(fools rush where angels fear to tread)

ive said before, just because we dont have an explanation for the earth doesnt mean that it is proof of god.

with regards to "clever creation" with the amazing feats of natures come flaws, its not perfect. many animals die just after theyve been born, it takes just 1 out of millions of sperm to fertilise the egg etc, you must take the good with the bad.

Deleted. Undermines the status of Sikh Gurus as sharing one light, and in that sense, although they were mortal, they were ethically and spiritually the teachers who dispelled darkness. No one on a Sikh forum is in a position to critique the moral strengths and weaknesses of Nanak 1 through 10.

"besides what gurus say is confirmed by enlightened persons of all ages and places"

that is not true unless you can show that these "enlightened people" can do special things or know special things. Note: Sikh Gurus themselves did not perform "miracles." So it is unclear what you mean by "do special things or know special things."

spnadmin · Mar 7, 2011

Shanger ji

I feel I must go into more detail about the deletion, Shanger ji. Do also consider this an official warning. If you were to visit a Roman Catholic forum and disputed the moral nature of Jesus of Nazareth, or his special status as an Incarnation of God the Father, or his miracle-working, you would not be well received. That would be because you would have contradicted a central tenet of that faith. If you were to visit a Muslim forum and decided to critique the moral nature of Mohamed, or you said he was not a Prophet, you would not be well-received. Here you are on a Sikh forum, as "undisclosed" in your own beliefs, and you have questioned the moral stature of our Sikh Gurus and their special status. You have suggested that proof of doing special things and knowing special things should be forthcoming before accepting that they were extra-ordinary people. So why should this be well-received? Open dialog and freedom to discuss diverse points of view does not include an analysis of the ethical, moral, or even spiritual status of the Sikh Gurus. Consider that you are here because SPN is more tolerant than many other religious forums, and SPN gives you permission to speak. Do not take advantage of our liberal stance, or use the forum to create doubt. There were 10 Sikh Gurus who gave voice to the Shabad in their own way, through Gurbani, good karma, or both. All shared the same light, and we are left with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to guide us as the final and everlasting Guru. If you continue in this way, which is really only more repetition of things you have said in the past, you will be escorted out of here. Permanently. SPN is not your personal soapbox.

I think I have been very clear. So please do not sent me any private messages asking for clarifications and justifications. They will not be answered. In addition, do not take me to task on this thread. That will only hasten your departure. I have been respectful in my comments. I expect the same from you.

Thank you.

msbaath · Mar 8, 2011

dear spnadmin g
im spot on when i say only two gurus sacrificed ther lives
name the third one
and
thanks for agreeing with my point of view
thank you very much

msbaath · Mar 8, 2011

this is for shanger
i can see where u come from
miracles and feats dont exist
nobody has every done one
those who claim they did are dishonest people

msbaath · Mar 8, 2011

for confused g
ok ur talking about buddhism
buddhism is a great religion
but i dont know much about it
because what buddha says(or what we assume he said) doesnt appeal to me( im sorry if someone is hurt)
so i dint bother to go further into buddhism
there r so many religions( i dont want to mention)
that do not agree with sikh philosphy
so i do not agree to them
yes you r correct i said many enlightened persons agree to sikh philosophy
i dint name them
so let me name a few
all the bhagats(they were not sikhs)
jallaludin rumi
bulle shah
Mansur_Al-Hallaj
and many other sufi saints
im not sure if i helped u in any way
thanks

spnadmin · Mar 8, 2011

Admin note: A recent comment has been moved from this thread. There is some misunderstanding about each and everyone being "free" to say what he/she wants. Everything posted is subject to being moved or deleted according to our Terms of Service. Thank you.

Shanger · Mar 8, 2011

It is not possible to discuss the validity of Sikhism without questioning the gurus?

Banning that basically makes this a place for sikhs to co-sign each other rather than have debates with others.

Doesn't send a very good message out imo.

spnadmin · Mar 8, 2011

Shanger said:
It is not possible to discuss the validity of Sikhism without questioning the gurus?

Banning that basically makes this a place for sikhs to co-sign each other rather than have debates with others.

Doesn't send a very good message out imo.

It is not possible to discuss the validity of Sikhism without questioning the gurus?

No it is not possible to question the Gurus. Though one can and should ask questions about the Gurus.

It sends out an excellent message. The message sent says that Sikhs co-sign the message of their gurus. They debate with one another, and with others. We do not debate the validity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which emanates from our Gurus. We do not debate the validity of our Gurus.

Otherwise, why bother to be a Sikh?

The God Element

CuriousCour

msbaath

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)

Kanwaljit.Singh

Archived_member14

Kanwaljit.Singh

Archived_member14

Kanwaljit.Singh

Kanwaljit.Singh

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

Kanwaljit.Singh

Kanwaljit.Singh

Shanger

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)

msbaath

msbaath

msbaath

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)

Shanger

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)

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