Serving Of Meat In Langar By Guru Angad Sahib Ji?

Waheguru Ji/वाहे गुरू जी,

I read at the following link that meat was served in langar during the times of Guru Angad Dev Ji. /मैंने एक जगह पढ़ा कि गुरु अंगद देव जी के लंगर में मांस परोसा जाता था। लिन्क नीचे है।

Link removed. The site referred to is Spiritual World/article is 10 Gurus of Sikhism. spnadmin

I have just started to learn about Sikh religion... / मैंने अभी अभी सिख धर्म के बारे में जानना शुरू किया है।

Is the above article right? / क्या यह सही है।

Please help/guide me. / कृपया मेरी मदद करें !

Admin Note: Dear Atul, Welcome to SPN! Well, the official language of this forum is strictly English. Being a first instance, I have just translated your question. From next post onwards please make it a point to converse in English. Thank you!

Aman Singh

Re: Serving of Meat in Langar by Guru Arjan Dev Ji?

Atul ji

I am not in a position to judge the web site content. Let me point out one thing. Over to the right of the home page is a section on Yoga Sutras of Pantangali. What is this doing on the home page of a Sikh web site? Usually yoga content would be included in a sub section. But here it looks to be prominent. Also prominent is a link to the BhagataVeda. Another big ALSO, content is written in Devanagri script, the script for the Sanskirt language as well as for Hindi.

Who knows if the site is designed to create doubt? To me it all seems fishy, and I would take its contents with some skepticism. Better yet Ignore It! That is my advice. Please forgive any errors I may be guilty of.

Why would Guru Angad contradict decisions of Guru Nanak before him? All were of one jyote.

Atul ji welcome to spn and your first post.

The site you have linked is full of ideas and hindu centric with simplified excerpts without references.

It is uphill battle and not a philosophical point of discovery to have a positive discourse through references to such sites.

This site covers subject in glorification what was shown by Sikh Gurus as a charade like karamats, special powers, human gods, etc. The site also tries to equalize and creates subsets of Sants and Bhagats while mixing up those whose writings are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and others.

Sorry I cannot contribute much to help you.

You may want to address the issue yourself as to what are personal consequences to you if what the article says is true or false. For a Sikh, at least for me, it is irrelevant. It is called sweating the small stuff and at worse a way to minimize the subject of the article. What guides Sikhism is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and not Sakhis written in a site that you referred to.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: spnadmin ji perhaps worthwhile per spn TOS to delete the link to the website in Atul ji's post. It borders on spamming/redirection. Atul ji is welcome to share the thoughts in English.

This is what the Google translator translated the article:

Sri Guru Angad Sahib Bibi Amro the daughter was married to the nephew of Mr. Amar Das Ji | You asked Bibi Amro ji's daughter, my father take me to master | I want to see them succeed with your life | like a father aged Listening to Mr. Amar Das Ji wife live with their family members are allowed to sit in the car took Khadur Sahib | Guru Angad Dev Ji, the daughter and the son of the skilled Tue asked! Who have brought with them, 'Why do you come sit | Gurus them to know their relatives have come forward | Amar Das Ji said to have come to learn that you | you made me learn by your teaching |

!Refuses to keep the meat to food Yhe Vaishnav | not so overjoyed to hear Amar Das Ji and Guru Ji said, divine mind, they are falling out of place must hold a master |

Jarnail Singh: Besides the horrible English ( no idea if its due to limitations of GT word for word translating or other reasons).....

The Sakhi does appear in Guru Kiaan Sakhian a sort of source along the lines of the Janamsakhis.

2. Guru Angad Ji is NOT necessarily "going against" the earlier Guru ( only Guru Nanak ji came earlier than this period )..because Guru nanak Ji Himslef has Sakhi proof in janamsakhi that He cooked Deer meat at Hardwaar Kumbh Mela as well as threw water to his "fields in Punjab" while the otehr million were throwing water to their ancestors in the Sun. Both actions were a LESSON from Gurmatt that Guru nanak ji came to preach.

3. In Asa dee Vaar Guru nanak ji writes that a Goat was slaughtered for the ceremony of his Janeau wearing. Thats a period piece about prevailing dietary habits of the population.

4. Circumstantial proof: Why would Bhai Amardass Ji feel the need to stress his VAISHNAVITE DIET to his relative Guru Angad Ji ? According to the sakhi Bhai Amardass Ji was invited to sit alongside Guru Angad Ji to have langgar. Bhai Amardass Ji saw what was being served...and he was apprehensive that his dietary observances of a lifetime may be shattered..and IF Guru Angad Ji was truly the GURU he thought he was..then He would surely take care of his food...and true enough when the food came Guru Anagd Ji gave instructions thta no meat be served to his relative Bhai Amardass Ji. Bhai Amardass Ji then relasied the Guru was true guru becasue he guessed what was in his heart.

All this is now practically just an academic discussion..Guru ka Langgar has been VAISHVANITE for centuries..and the situation is a Fait Accompli.

Go to the Sikh Heritage Website and you will see that the Sikh KHANDA has been "copied" from HINDU IDOLS...of the CHOLA DYNASTY circa 1050 AD..roughly 500 years BEFORE the Birth of Nanak Ji..the KHANDA in Basic Form existed as SHIVA's TRIDENT. How this came to be prominent as Sikhism's KHANDA (slightly modified)..?? no one knows..but it did..and its SHIVA's trident......with a half naked woman DEVI on the base of the Double edged Khanda pointed skywards....Mistaken Identity ?? Our History has a lot to be researched ON...to arrive at the Facts of what was infiltrated when and by whom..and all that...the ONE and ONLY infiltration proof subject we have today is the SGGS !! This has been sent down to us IRONCLAD by Guru Arjun ji. Rest of it..everything needs study....its common knowledge that sometimes the TENANT has been in occupation of the house/land for so long..that he can turn around and say..I am the OWNER...this has happened to sikh history/diet/books/literature etc etc becasue the Tenants who took care of our "house" stayed in so long unsupervised that they CHANGED the very shape of the house( * RENOVATED* to suit their tastes..Guru nanak's Dharamsals became Gurdwaras which in turn have become Sikh-Mandirs with just one small difference...SGGS parkash !! which by the way some genuine Mandirs also have !!

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji thank you.

Just another thought in terms of relative value of Sakhis versus Shabads and tuks in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I observe that almost every tuk can be turned into a teachable story (actual encounter (Sakhi) or a means to teach, a discourse of the Shabad while describing the essence through examples). So, for me the overall substance or nourishment that one can enjoy from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is enoromously more than totality of all Sakhis at an analytical level. One needs to recognize that sometimes a word can provide the key to learning so Sakhis are still very powerful if held to truth.

Any comments.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: How hot is it these days (weather) your way in Malaysia?

Gyani ji

The ideas you have provided via Google translation are sounding close to those promoted in a movement called "Hindu Sikh." We at SPN have been down this path many times and it adds nothing to our understanding of either Sikhism or Hinduism. So I thank you for taking time and making the effort.

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

Go to the Sikh Heritage Website and you will see that the Sikh KHANDA has been "copied" from HINDU IDOLS...of the CHOLA DYNASTY circa 1050 AD..roughly 500 years BEFORE the Birth of Nanak Ji..the KHANDA in Basic Form existed as SHIVA's TRIDENT. How this came to be prominent as Sikhism's KHANDA (slightly modified)..?? no one knows..but it did..and its SHIVA's trident......with a half naked woman DEVI on the base of the Double edged Khanda pointed skywards....Mistaken Identity ?? Our History has a lot to be researched ON...to arrive at the Facts of what was infiltrated when and by whom..and all that...the ONE and ONLY infiltration proof subject we have today is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji !! This has been sent down to us IRONCLAD by Guru Arjun ji. Rest of it..everything needs study....its common knowledge that sometimes the TENANT has been in occupation of the house/land for so long..that he can turn around and say..I am the OWNER...this has happened to sikh history/diet/books/literature etc etc becasue the Tenants who took care of our "house" stayed in so long unsupervised that they CHANGED the very shape of the house( * RENOVATED* to suit their tastes..Guru nanak's Dharamsals became Gurdwaras which in turn have become Sikh-Mandirs with just one small difference...Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji parkash !! which by the way some genuine Mandirs also have !!

Click to expand...

Gyanni jee,
Ouir Khanda has more similarties with the National emblem of Iran shown and downloaded as below:

Hardip Singh Ji..
This is also discussed on the sikh heritage site. Punjab was a Province of IRAN..and we share so much...much more than what Punjab shares with say..UP/Bihar..or Tamil nadu South India !! The three most important words we use..Sardar, Dastaar and Fateh all originate in Persian F{censored}e...

The Shivji trident from the Chola Dynasty of tamil nadu circa 1050 AD... is 99% our Modern Khanda...only addition we have is the CHAKRA in the Centre..and REMOVAL of the semi naked DEVI image from its centre.
Perhaps this is why the DSM has banis that say this..Pritham KHANDA Sajekeh..that Akal Purakh first made the KHANDA..and then everything else...this is from this connection..BECAUSE the SGGS gives a very DIFFERENT description of the Formation of the World..and makes no mention of any khandas...SGGS declares..Keeta pasao eko kavaao...nothing is "prithameh" or secondme..or thirdmeh...etc...ALL and EVERYTHING at ONCE..in one Kavao !!

In the Iran flag..the image is more different from our Khanda...looks simialr but not the same...swords have no handles, khanda shape is without Base...and shaped differently from ours..and no chakra..all 4 side arms look like stylised swords sans handles.

ਧਨਵਾਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਯਾਰ੍ਯੋ
ਏ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਓਖਾ ਰਾਏਗਾ ਕੇ ਮੈ ਅੰਗ੍ਰੇਜੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖਾਂ
ਏ ਗਲ ਨਾਯਿ ਕੇ ਮੈਨੂ ਅੰਗ੍ਰੇਜੀ ਨਾਯਿ ਆਉਂਦੀ

It does not matter, if you can write perfect English, just be able to express in English that's it, otherwise its going to be very difficult to converse with you or even accommodate you.

Thank you for your understanding.

Regards

Gyani ji, We are bit on the peaceful side and find those creation story attractive. The warriors who like swords find their own creation stories attractive. Through this story they give importance to the Khanda.

You know the Khanda is created first but used last in battle. When one loses his horse and is forced to fight on foot, the khanda is pulled out. The Khanda is the weapon of the "last stand".

Warriors live in a different environment (namely battlefield) than us normal folks. Their life and death comes from a weapon. If you go beyond these words and feel the emotion...

Agam agochar at vada, Atul na tulia jai

Thank you for the viakhya of the sakhi.

That site contains all these stories that I read as child. These books are so common in gurudwaras. They are based on oral tradition of stories that contain some historical truth but are more geared towards showing that the Guru is in fact a Guru and should be listened to. The importance of mythology and miracles in reaching the common man, throughout history, should be valued. The stories should be read with an open mind. There is no need to label them as 'this' or 'that'. They just are.

In Sikh Histories it is mentioned

1) SatGur Nanak took Animal meat (Vension)
2) SatGur Angad took Animal meat (Mutton)
3) SatGur Amardass took Animal meat(fish)
4) SatGur Hargobind took Animal meat
5) SatGur Gobind Singh ate Animal meat

Other satGurus too took plant life and used plant meat for food.

All in all satgurus took life of plants and animals for their food.

Hardip Singh said:

Gyanni jee,
Ouir Khanda has more similarties with the National emblem of Iran shown and downloaded as below:

Click to expand...

Hardip Singh ji did you know Iranian leader of revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini came from Punjab and at one time was a Sikh! I don't know if it is an urban legend though!

Sat Sri Akal.

atul said:

Plant meat ? a new term for me !
पादप मांस? मेरे लिए नए से शब्द हैं?
भारत के लुटेरों की भाषा में नीचे लिखना पड़ रहा है ।
(Plant meat ? a new term for me !)

Click to expand...

Atul ji, Soya Beans perhaps closest to meat in terms of protein.

Vegetarianism is said to be by meat eaters as, "You are eating the food, that my food eats".

This thread needs to be merged with "Fools who Wrangle over Flesh" as we are going to end up covering whether meat is allowed or not.

By the way there are experiments in advanced stages that they can grow meat artificially without the animals. Then I think this debate will rest.Or may be Veggans are going to find some other arguments against that, but that is fair enough. To each their own.

Just my thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

atul said:

Plant meat ? a new term for me !
पादप मांस? मेरे लिए नए से शब्द हैं?
भारत के लुटेरों की भाषा में नीचे लिखना पड़ रहा है ।
(Plant meat ? a new term for me !)

Click to expand...

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ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥
Grains, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

______________________________________

In gurmat, Plant body(shareer) is also attributed with term Meat(ਮਾਸੁ ) born of water. we call it plant flesh, not even plant body, animal body too called Meat(ਮਾਸੁ ).

harmanpreetsingh said:

______________________________________

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥
Grains, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

______________________________________

In gurmat, Plant body(shareer) is also attributed with term Meat(ਮਾਸੁ ) born of water. we call it plant flesh, not even plant body, animal body too called Meat(ਮਾਸੁ ).

Click to expand...

Ambarsariah Ji,
You wrote:...By the way there are experiments in advanced stages that they can grow meat artificially without the animals. Then I think this debate will rest.Or may be Veggans are going to find some other arguments against that, but that is fair enough.

As harmanpreet Singh Ji has quoted above..GURU NANAK JI SAHIB RESTED this "debate" 530 years ago....but it obviously didnt "die" a natural death as it should have ( Even AMONG those who say they beleive in GURU NANAK Ji 110% !! )...so I wont hold my breath that this artificial meat grown in labs will do that....I beleive certain Fast Food Chains have already begun selling this sort of cultivated meat esp in places where it cannot be recognised ( Obvioulsy as in Drumstick..lamb chops etc)..........sausages, burgers etc...

GURU NANAK JI also RESTED many other false beliefs...."sending bhandeh and manjjeh bistreh" to dead ancestors, feeding the dead via feeding the Brahmins on earth ( 5 Fat Gyanis in place of Brahmins), Bathing at teerath in plain water to WASH the MIND !!!, fasting, pilgrimaging, brahmchareeism, etc etc etc...BUT his SIKHS decided He was talking through his "puggh"..and we know BETTER....so His Gurbani is left for ritualised reading by Gyanis while we DO what we got to do !! Ha Ha.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...Gurus+By+Prithi+Pal+Singh#v=onepage&q&f=false

The story about meat being served is also confirmed on Page 38 of the above book. I don't think it would have been that much of a problem as Langar was made up of whatever people could offer. So someone giving meat in good faith would not be discriminated. Surely if a Butcher like Sadana can have his verses included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, what difference would have meat made.

Meat was however, stopped for a good reason and that was Vaishnav's refusal to take part, and since Langar is open to all, it was decided to leave it out.

Ambarsaria said:

Hardip Singh ji did you know Iranian leader of revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini came from Punjab and at one time was a Sikh! I don't know if it is an urban legend though!

Sat Sri Akal.

Click to expand...

Sorry to say, Sir. I am puting below the personal details of this leader and he was born in Persia in 1902 an not in Punjab.
Born24 September 1902(1902-09-24)
Khomein, PersiaDied3 June 1989(1989-06-03) (aged 86)
Tehran, IranSpouse(s)Khadijeh Saqafi (m.1926 - will.1989)ChildrenMostafa, Zahra, Sadiqeh, Farideh & AhmadReligionIslam

Aman Singh said:

It does not matter, if you can write perfect English, just be able to express in English that's it, otherwise its going to be very difficult to converse with you or even accommodate you.

Thank you for your understanding.

Regards

Click to expand...

Yes Aman Singhji,
I agree. We must get the message. We do not mind grammar or vocabulary.