Petitionary Prayer And Hukam

If everything happens per Hukam, then what's the point of petitionary prayer or ardaas where something is asked for? If Waheguru is the inner-knower, and It provides everything all the time, how can my concentrated asking possibly influence the outcome of anything?

Isn't it better to "pray" to accept whatever happens than ask for anything else?

As much as i'd love to have the kind of relationship with the Creator when I'm always talking to It, asking for help and guidance, I just can't work it out...

Thoughts appreciated.

Gurfateh

Ishna Ji..
IF you read SGGS..there is no shabad "asking" for anything except HIS Nazar...His blessings..His Hukm..His Grace..His Gurparsaad...no asking for heavens, or rewards..and no promises of any heavens or rewards..JE SUKH deh taan tujeh aradhi...DUKH mein tjeh DHIYAAOON........if you give me SUKH..i adore you..worship you..if you give me DUKH..i worship you..adore you..remember you...same prayer...Humans take SUKH..as a new car...then a BMW car..then Mercedes car..then 2 jaguar cars..then five...a new bungalow...money..cash..jewels..beautiful wife..good helath....and DUKH...as the cars got stolen..the bungalow collapsed in an earthquake..the beautiful wife had aprevious lover and elft you...soem one hacked the banka ccount and its all gone..cancer struck and now blood pressure dropping..stroke on the way...IN GURMATT..SUKH is being NEAR to HIM..and DUKH is being farther from HIM...but Sikhs being humans..listen to themselves than the GURU....and so they pray...pray..and pray...for maya and worldy things that are clouds of smoke...

So where does ardaas fit into that? We should pray before starting and new task per SRM... For what? The task will eventuate however it will eventuate regardless.

Each Sunday at Gurdwara the ardaas goes for quite a while as Gyani ji reads lots of peoples names, with words like chardi Kala and kaam, krodh, lob, moh aunkar (I don't know how to spell the last one). I can't understand Punjabi much yet but I can only imagine this part of the ardaas is asking for chardi Kala for those people and for them to overcome vices.

It is easy to see how asking for material things doesn't fit in Sikhi... What about asking for tolerance, for help understanding Gurbani... Is that worth doing?

I was speaking with a sardar a few weeks ago and he said to me that anything is possible if you get enough Sikhs doing true ardaas for it, it is stronger with more people. Can't say I agree but happy to hear thoughts...

Bhenji,

Its funny as I have had much the same debate with my mother this morning, I informed her I was at the shop, and she replied, well make sure you pray to god and do matha tek in your head so that you have a good day. I replied that I would never do that, giving much the same reasoning that you already have. Mum, I said, god is the truth, what is any point in asking him for things he already knows I need. My mother thought for a while, and then said, do you follow the truth, I replied that I tried to, my mother then said, then pray that you have the courage, wisdom and inner strength to follow and live by the truth, so you can be in tune with what is expected of you.

However another way of looking at is, there was a study I read about, where a scientist wanted to know about sixth sense. The best way to reveal sixth sense to yourself is to watch somebody, after a while they will look at you, people have a sixth sense about being watched. She rigged up some monitors to a dozen people, and then watched them with cameras, each subject, according to sensors, realised that a camera was watching them, even though they could not see it. When a colleague tried to recreate this, the sensors did not pick up anything, after a while they both decided to do the experiment again, at the same time, and same results.

I am aware of the power of mind, given what the mind can do once it has submitted to the creator must be potentially huge!

The results were dependent on who was doing the experiment, the theory is that the first scientist in some way willed the people to realise that they were being watched, through the power of thought

If enough small lights join up, who knows what could happen!

However I think what such a group would be praying for would have to be pure and good and Gur given

Gyaniji, you have the order extremely wrong, as any manmukh fule know it goes like this

its the Jaguar first, then the BMW, then the Mercedes, no self respecting Manmukh would buy 5 jaguars, five mercedes yes, but not jaguars, they are for people that love driving for the sake of driving, unreliable, costly, passionate, whereas mercedes are more about unpassionate, reliable, stable values, it is the ultimate car that you cannot stand driving, but it makes the ultimate statement.

Ishan Ji..the ardass is..Santaan ke karaj AAP KHOLOYAH....AAP kaam karavan aiyah Raam !! who are we to commence any tasks...even the westerners know..Man PROPOSES..God disposes..in Gurmatt its ALL HIS WILL..we just do whats got to be done.period. Man chooses to go EAST..BUT HE takes you to the WEST !!!

Can prayer change things or destiny?

Those who offer prayers sincerely, know the efficacy and value of prayer. Other people think that prayer may give consolation and peace to man but cannot affect physical events, because the universe is governed by law. If fire burns today, it will also burn tomorrow, in spite of the prayer. Life is regular and smooth because of these unchanging laws. Though saints and mystics may possess great powers. What we regard as a miracle may really only be the "power of prayer" or the "working of a spiritual law". Sincere prayer is a supplication made to God generally without any personal motive. God knows of all the desires and sincerity of the individual. It is up to Him, to accept or reject a request made to Him.

Certain basic laws are interacted on by other laws. Airplanes fly, contrary to the laws of gravity, but in turn they are governed by the laws of aerodynamics.

Prayer may help in a psychological way, e.g. people who are made ill by fear or tension while the effect is physical the cause may be mental. In such a case prayer may also heal in the same way as medicine, but by removing the mental cause.

According to Sikhism, prayer can change man's mind. Just as dirt is washed away by soap, in the same way man's evil thoughts may be washed away by prayer and meditation. Sinners have turned into saints through the power of prayer. The example of Sajjan, the thug is well-known. Bhai Gurdas has cited the case of Queen Tara Lochan. Her lost sandals were restored to her by prayer.

Guru Arjan emphasizes the role of prayer:

"The praising of His Name is the highest of all practices.
It has uplifted many a human soul.
It slakes the desire of restless mind.
It imparts, an all-seeing vision."
(A.G., p.263)

Prayer is not mere autosuggestion. At its best, it is concentrating on God and His qualities. God is goodness, truth, patience, peace, and love. When a man offers a prayer, God enters into his life and gives His qualities to the devotee. With such qualities and power, He can mould things. Others may regard such events as just coincidences, but people who understand recognize them as the effect of prayer: "More things are wrought by prayer than this world ever dreams of."

source: "Introduction to Sikhism" - author: Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani

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Suggested reading:

"The Miracle of Ardaas"
By: Sant Baba Surain Singh Ji & Saint Scholar Naranjan Singh Ji ( Shromani Kathakar)
Publisher: Mighty Minds Publishing Pte Ltd, Singapore

Ishna ji great topic and inquiry. Just some thoughts.

I recognize that there are two views of how things happen.

One is causal, like you light fire to dry grass, it burns. We get to see so much in every day life that we start believing it to be all given to a high degree say 95%+. An extension of the same is that when things happen and there is no explanation, the general fall back is it is all deterministic except we have not uncovered how’s and why’s? So it forms a belief system in oneself.

• Such a person with this understanding may pray but its generic value will be minimal at a personal level whether they pray within or without.
• Such a person may pray for someone in a group or otherwise without a person’s/group’s/entity’s involvement, the effect may still be limited.

The other view, in Sikhism, there is the Gurbani view starting from Mool Mantar and carried forward as a common thread. Let us revisit the mool mantar,

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ArQ:- Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[

God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.

Click to expand...

The area to focus on is the underlying timelessness and vastness of creator and associated creation. So in this creation; you, me or any person is not going to know all. Included in that is how the thoughts impact chemistry and biology in life. The life of human beings, animals, etc.

Let us look at it little further in humans. The thoughts of happiness create a chemical response and associated physical sensations that we observe perhaps some of. There is a whole vastness of activity within this complex that we personally do not have the knowledge of or experience in observing at micro level. This activity continues day and night perhaps much like,

Let us now recognize how the flock moves in nuancing ways. Could we internally be much different. What is flowing inside? Is it affected by our conscious and unconscious thoughts. Of course it is. Is prayer at a personal level a collection of thoughts? Absolutely. So such actions have consequences known or unknown but consequences. Do we know all the positives and negatives, absolutely not.

For me a prayer is much internal thought. Reinforcing the truths in Gurbani and guidance thereof. Can it have a positive effect, quite likely. Can I prove it, no.

When we pray collectively with words uttered and in unison, does it have effects, absolutely. Can we quantify those all the time, no. Knowing the infinity of unknown, could some effects be dramatically positive, quite possible. Would some or most of the times the effects will be unobservable, quite likely.

So praying in Sikhism generally directs towards much of the unknown. Not with a promise or prize, but simply to show how much is happening that we do not know. Persistence of praying through the ages perhaps is a collective wisdom of humanity that it has shown positive effects. Hence it has prevailed from way way long ago and throughout way way different lands and peoples. It is no proof and it is no holy grail, just how it may be!

Sorry I ramble sometimes and posts are long.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Many people may think that somehow they can cut a deal with the creator. They donate say $5 in donation while bowing and praying, and there prayer may include to request a lottery win, etc. There is a saying , " you can fool some of the people some of the times, but you cannot fool all the people all the time". So the creator has known the math of converting $5 into say $1 million, a Mercedes, a House, etc. So people need to rise up and don't treat creator like a fool! No offence.

There are many wonderful answers here. All I can add is that prayer works, so there must be some reason why it works.

I'm reminded of a Buddhist story I read once.

A child was born and his parents hired an astrologer to make charts and foretell his future. The child would grow to be a rich and successful man. This astrologer was well known for his accuracy, so the child grew up certain that the events would come to pass just as they had been predicted. The child said to himself, "why study in school? Why apply for jobs? Why live a good life? No matter what I do, I am destined to be rich and successful."

Many years later the child, grown up now, happened to meet the astrologer. He had lived a hard life, and was neither rich nor successful. He angrily complained to the astrologer that the predictions had been wrong.

The astrologer said, "my predictions were correct at the time I made them. If you had stayed on the path you were on, you would have been rich and successful. But because you believed it was pre-destined and you became complacent, you changed the future."

Sikhism advocates Naam jappo..KIRT KARO..and WANDD CHHAKO. Doing that ensures a comfortable healthy life..but will not give you a filthy rich life...becasue Papaan bajohn hoveh nahin..moyeahn saath na jayee..Maya/WEALTH cannot be accumalated without "wrong actions"..and at Death you have to leave it all here !! Only Naam japp goes with YOU.
Wrong actions..also inlcudes...NOT SHARING !!..as per Pillar no. 3 waandd chhako...the more one ahs..the GREEDIER one gets and the tendency is NOT TO SHARE at all but GRAB as much as you can....so even if a Sikh were to strike a Lottery..once he obeys the WANDD CHHAKO principle..he will be back to square one...hard honest labour soon enough !! Guur Nank ji stayed with BHAI LALO..a poor hard working carpenter...and not Malik Bhago the rich landowner and Lord of the land.
So Sikhs who matha tek 1.25 and "pray" for a Lottery strike worth millions are actually fooling no one...if they get it they are not going to give nayone more than the original 1.25 they invested.

Gyaniji,

some clarification please for a fool who wishes to behave in accordance with the spirit of sikhi, you say that maya cannot be accumulated without 'wrong actions' , will this not lead the more gullible like myself to view all very rich people as people who have carried out wrong actions, is there a balance? do you think it possible for someone to be true to guru and very rich?

I suppose the answer is, if that person has that much wealth, then why are they sitting on it, earning interest, but then what about very rich people that although they do not share their wealth, put large amounts into social assistance.

I suppose the question at the end of the day is, 'do riches hold you back from the truth', sorry to deviate from the subject in question

Thank you everyone for your replies. What I'm really trying to get at, is, is it acceptable to my understanding of Sikhi, to have a dialogue with Waheguru where I pray, "I lay my head at your feet, please let me understand your bani, may soandso have the courage to face your hukam, help me to hear the Name and guide me to right actions today" etcetc... all that nice fluffy stuff. I would like to pray "may soandso find peace, may soandso recover from their illness, may soandso overcome their struggles". But I'm not sure if this is in tune with Sikhi.

On one had it seems like a no-brainer - go for it. On the other hand, I wonder if the only prayer at all should be "may I accept everything as your doing" and leave it as that, EXACTLY that, no more, no less, because it is not for me to demand anything at all, and everyone's needs are already being met.

When I was a Pagan, I hated the thought of "magic". I wanted to worship, everyone around me wanted to cast magic spells for luck, for prosperity, for love, for RAIN. I was like "you're interfering with the natural order of things... why are you trying to do what the creator has control of? how do you know your magic for rain won't do more harm than good, the gods have more knowledge about the big picture than you do...". Part of me feels like prayer is in this category. I don't want to pray for something which I think is good but which is ultimately bad for someone just becuase I think I'm doing the right thing with my limited understanding... surely Waheguru wouldn't allow that to happen. *brain explodey smiley *

Then again, I appreciate Annie ji's message, that we still need to put in human effort for things to happen. Perhaps prayer is the same as any pro-active, physical, mundane deed. It a way it's sharing, sharing positive vibes for those you pray for... like handing a homeless person some food without which he might have perished, perhaps the prayer is the spiritual food without being offered they might lose out?

Bhenji,

maybe instead of praying, we should be thanking?

thank you for your best efforts in helping so and so find peace, thank you for assisting so and so in their struggles etc

That sounds like a nice compromise for me. I will percolate on that for a while, like hot water on coffee and see what the brew tastes like... yes, I'm rather overtired. :woohoo:

Ang 44



ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
स्रीरागु महला ५ ॥
Sarīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
ਸੋਈ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥
सोई धिआईऐ जीअड़े सिरि साहां पातिसाहु ॥
So▫ī ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jī▫aṛe sir sāhāʼn pāṯisāhu.
Meditate on Him, O my soul; He is the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors.
ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਆਸ ਮਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥
तिस ही की करि आस मन जिस का सभसु वेसाहु ॥
Ŧis hī kī kar ās man jis kā sabẖas vesāhu.
Place the hopes of your mind in the One, in whom all have faith.
ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
सभि सिआणपा छडि कै गुर की चरणी पाहु ॥१॥
Sabẖ si▫āṇpā cẖẖad kai gur kī cẖarṇī pāhu. ||1||
Give up all your clever tricks, and grasp the Feet of the Guru. ||1||
ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
मन मेरे सुख सहज सेती जपि नाउ ॥
Man mere sukẖ sahj seṯī jap nā▫o.
O my mind, chant the Name with intuitive peace and poise.
ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आठ पहर प्रभु धिआइ तूं गुण गोइंद नित गाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āṯẖ pahar parabẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯūʼn guṇ go▫inḏ niṯ gā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Twenty-four hours a day, meditate on God. Constantly sing the Glories of the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||
ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੁ ਮਨਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
तिस की सरनी परु मना जिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Ŧis kī sarnī par manā jis jevad avar na ko▫e.
Seek His Shelter, O my mind; there is no other as Great as He.
ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਘਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਮੂਲੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
जिसु सिमरत सुखु होइ घणा दुखु दरदु न मूले होइ ॥
Jis simraṯ sukẖ ho▫e gẖaṇā ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ na mūle ho▫e.
Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all.
ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
सदा सदा करि चाकरी प्रभु साहिबु सचा सोइ ॥२॥
Saḏā saḏā kar cẖākrī parabẖ sāhib sacẖā so▫e. ||2||
Forever and ever, work for God; He is our True Lord and Master. ||2||
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਕਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ ॥
साधसंगति होइ निरमला कटीऐ जम की फास ॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ ho▫e nirmalā katī▫ai jam kī fās.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.
ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
सुखदाता भै भंजनो तिसु आगै करि अरदासि ॥
Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa bẖai bẖanjno ṯis āgai kar arḏās.
So offer your prayers to Him, the Giver of Peace, the Destroyer of fear.
ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
मिहर करे जिसु मिहरवानु तां कारजु आवै रासि ॥३॥
Mihar kare jis miharvān ṯāʼn kāraj āvai rās. ||3||
Showing His Mercy, the Merciful Master shall resolve your affairs. ||3||
ਬਹੁਤੋ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
बहुतो बहुतु वखाणीऐ ऊचो ऊचा थाउ ॥
Bahuṯo bahuṯ vakẖāṇī▫ai ūcẖo ūcẖā thā▫o.
The Lord is said to be the Greatest of the Great; His Kingdom is the Highest of the High.
ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਉ ॥
वरना चिहना बाहरा कीमति कहि न सकाउ ॥
varnā cẖihnā bāhrā kīmaṯ kahi na sakā▫o.
He has no color or mark; His Value cannot be estimated.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਣਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੭੭॥
नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि सचु देवहु अपुणा नाउ ॥४॥७॥७७॥
Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar sacẖ ḏevhu apuṇā nā▫o. ||4||7||77||
Please show Mercy to Nanak, God, and bless him with Your True Name. ||4||7||77||


Ang 148



ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੀਆ ॥
नारी पुरख पिआरु प्रेमि सीगारीआ ॥
Nārī purakẖ pi▫ār parem sīgārī▫ā.
The soul-bride loves her Husband Lord; she is embellished with His Love.
ਕਰਨਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਨ ਰਹਨੀ ਵਾਰੀਆ ॥
करनि भगति दिनु राति न रहनी वारीआ ॥
Karan bẖagaṯ ḏin rāṯ na rahnī vārī▫ā.
She worships Him day and night; she cannot be restrained from doing so.
ਮਹਲਾ ਮੰਝਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਵਾਰੀਆ ॥
महला मंझि निवासु सबदि सवारीआ ॥
Mėhlā manjẖ nivās sabaḏ savārī▫ā.
In the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, she has made her home; she is adorned with the Word of His Shabad.
ਸਚੁ ਕਹਨਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਸੇ ਵੇਚਾਰੀਆ ॥
सचु कहनि अरदासि से वेचारीआ ॥
Sacẖ kahan arḏās se vecẖārī▫ā.
She is humble, and she offers her true and sincere prayer.
ਸੋਹਨਿ ਖਸਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਿਧਾਰੀਆ ॥
सोहनि खसमै पासि हुकमि सिधारीआ ॥
Sohan kẖasmai pās hukam siḏẖārī▫ā.
She is beautiful in the Company of her Lord and Master; she walks in the Way of His Will.
ਸਖੀ ਕਹਨਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੀਆ ॥
सखी कहनि अरदासि मनहु पिआरीआ ॥
Sakẖī kahan arḏās manhu pi▫ārī▫ā.
With her dear friends, she offers her heart-felt prayers to her Beloved.
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਵਾਸੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਸੁ ਜੀਵਿਆ ॥
बिनु नावै ध्रिगु वासु फिटु सु जीविआ ॥
Bin nāvai ḏẖarig vās fit so jīvi▫ā.
Cursed is that home, and shameful is that life, which is without the Name of the Lord.
ਸਬਦਿ ਸਵਾਰੀਆਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵਿਆ ॥੨੨॥
सबदि सवारीआसु अम्रितु पीविआ ॥२२॥
Sabaḏ savārī▫ās amriṯ pīvi▫ā. ||22||
But she who is adorned with the Word of His Shabad, drinks in the Amrit of His Nectar. ||22||

Bhai Gurdas Ji has written something interesting on this subject...

Var 26

ਖਸਮੈ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵਦਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ।
Khasamai Ayvai Bhaavadaa Bhagati Vachhalu Hui Biradu Sadaaiaa.
खसमै एवै भावदा भगति वछलु हुइ बिरदु सदाइआ ।
Now the Lord also loves to accept the prayer of the devotee because protection of the devotee is His nature.
4 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੦ ਪੰ. ੪

bhenji, you should have been a barrister japposatnamwaheguru: