Occultism - Rejection In Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)

Ambarsaria · Oct 13, 2012

Occult practices are generally and commonly related to,

astrology, alchemy, divination, magic, and witchcraft and sorcery

SRM unequivocally declares the following,

s) zwq-pwq, CUq-Cwq, jMqR-mMqR-qMqR, Sgn, iq`Q, mhUrq, gRih, rwS, SrwD, ip`qr, iKAwh, ipMf p`ql, dIvw, ikirAw krm, hom, j`g, qrpx, isKw sUq, B`dx, iekwdSI, pUrnmwSI Awid dy vrq, iqlk, jM\U,qulsI, mwlw, gor, m`T, mVHI, mUrqI pUjw Awid Brm-rUp krmW auqy inscw nhIN krnw[ gur AsQwn qoN iksy An-Drm dy qIrQ jW Dwm nUM Awpxw AsQwn nhIN mMnxw[ pIr, bRwhmx, pu`Cxw, su`Kxw, SIrnI, vyd Swsqr, gwieqRI,gIqw, kurwn, AMjIl Awid auqy inScw nhIN krnw[ hW, Awm vwkPI leI AnmqW dy gRMQW dw pVHnw Xog hY[

d. Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions, Shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestor on appointed days as per the lunar calendar), Ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of death of an ancestor)

In the following post palaingtha states that Occult practices are recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-excommunicate-patit-sikhs-9.html#post174054

Unfortunately the author shows considerable lack of understanding in how Guru ji use analogies, metaphorics as style to not prove people wrong or create time wasting debates but rather teach the positive alternatives. Guruji try not to put down things or practices people follow but shine light on better spirituality and ways. Gurujis style is that they want the student (all Sikhs) to self learn and then see.

In not putting down, the author and many others somehow assume that Guruji actually have vetted such powers or practices. Nothing could be further from the truth in such wrong assumptions contorted by many.

Let us take an excerpt as to how palaingtha ji mis-uses and applies missive understanding to somehow deduce that Occultism is recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

Here is Gurbani on Occult powers practiced by people with page references.

OCCULT POWERS - SIDHIS
ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਸਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥:

What is occult power? Also known as Sidhis, Ashvarayas, Tant Mant (tantar mantar or tantra mantra), miraculous powers, spiritual powers, supernatural powers, magical powers, psychic powers, super human powers, super sensory phenomena, extrasensory perceptions, and so on, are in fact divine powers which can be manifested by any living being who has obtained mastery over the forces of the creation or nature through special training and practice of certain substance or Mantraas.

Sidhis or Siddhis - supernatural powers - are said to be eighteen in number. Of them, the eight are known as major and the remaining are considered minor. The eight principle Sidhis are as follows: the power to assume form as small as atom (Anima), as large as mountain (Mahimaa), as light in weight as ------The system was not accepting more words.

In a convoluted way the author seems to suggest that just the mention of such is the proof of their existence, efficacy or acceptance by Guru ji. I believe this is highly dis-respectful and borders on missing the fundamental teachings of Sikhism in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I sincerely wish that people (at least Sikhs) pay heed to some basic approach to studying and learning from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In this age of the Internet it is far too easy to distort, post and deduce and repeat to make something believable. A Guru ji’s Sikh needs to rise above such temptations and really respectfully cherish the gift of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The gift is not words and quoting them willy nilly but understanding and sharing the wisdom behind the words.

Prof. Sahib Singh ji gives lot of direction in early parts of his Darpan that could be helpful if paid attention to.

What you think!

Sat Sri Akal.

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PS: An excerpt from Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s “sRI gurU grMQ swihb drpx”, from page (6268 of 6299) from the .pdf downloaded from http://www.gurbanifiles.org/,

siqgurU jI dw AwdrS:
KrHvIAW g`lW dw au~qr KrHvy l&zW ivc dyxw bVw koJw qy As`BX au~dm hY [ pr AslIAq ƒ Awp smJxw qy hornW dI smJ-gocrw bxwxw hryk mnu`K dw &rz hY [ AsI dwhvw nhIN krdy ik siqgurU nwnk dyv jI sMsik®q dy ivdvwn sn, jW, auh Aswƒ sMsik®q ivc ilKIAW vyd Awidk Drm-pusqkW pVHwx Awey sn [ auh qW DrqI dy ivlkdy qy sVdy jIvW ƒ jIvn dw shI rwh d`s ky ‘Kunk nwmu KudwieAw’ dy ky TMF vrqwx Awey sn [ lokW ƒ auhnW dIAW aukweIAW Aqy jIvn dw shI rsqw qW hI d`isAw jw skdw sI, jy auh lokW dI smJ-gocrI bolI ivc g`lW krn [ jgq ivc AwieAw hryk gurU pYZMbr Avqwr iehI kudrqI qrIkw vrqdw AwieAw hY, qy iehI vriqAw jw skdw sI [

Summary: Guru ji used common people's ways and understanding and politely guided them towards wisdom. The approach was non-confrontational and based on cool demeanor.

dalbirk · Oct 14, 2012

Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)

Ambarsaria ji ,
It is also one of the reasons why I like the Sikh Rehat Maryada so much in its present form . Any effort to make changes in it will open floodgates for each SANT , BABA , DERA , institutions with agenda , political parties with an agenda like Congress ,BJP(RSS) & Badals to rush in with their own CORRECTIONS . We have already seen that with the Nanakshahi Calender prepared with great efforts by RS Purewal which was TORPEDOED by Badals under pressure from RSS(BJP) in the garb of making some CORRECTIONS & thus implementing a totally BRAHMINISED calender , now we have to look toward Pandas of Benaras ,Kashi , Haridwar to celebrate our Gurupurabs . However I like to start a debate among esteemed members as to what articles of Sikh Rehat Maryada they like to be corrected .

Harry Haller · Oct 14, 2012

Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)

Ambarsaria said:
Occult practices are generally and commonly related to,

astrology, alchemy, divination, magic, and witchcraft and sorcery

SRM unequivocally declares the following,

In the following post palaingtha states that Occult practices are recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-excommunicate-patit-sikhs-9.html#post174054

Unfortunately the author shows considerable lack of understanding in how Guru ji use analogies, metaphorics as style to not prove people wrong or create time wasting debates but rather teach the positive alternatives. Guruji try not to put down things or practices people follow but shine light on better spirituality and ways. Gurujis style is that they want the student (all Sikhs) to self learn and then see.

In not putting down, the author and many others somehow assume that Guruji actually have vetted such powers or practices. Nothing could be further from the truth in such wrong assumptions contorted by many.

Let us take an excerpt as to how palaingtha ji mis-uses and applies missive understanding to somehow deduce that Occultism is recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

In a convoluted way the author seems to suggest that just the mention of such is the proof of their existence, efficacy or acceptance by Guru ji. I believe this is highly dis-respectful and borders on missing the fundamental teachings of Sikhism in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I sincerely wish that people (at least Sikhs) pay heed to some basic approach to studying and learning from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In this age of the Internet it is far too easy to distort, post and deduce and repeat to make something believable. A Guru ji’s Sikh needs to rise above such temptations and really respectfully cherish the gift of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The gift is not words and quoting them willy nilly but understanding and sharing the wisdom behind the words.

Prof. Sahib Singh ji gives lot of direction in early parts of his Darpan that could be helpful if paid attention to.

What you think!

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: An excerpt from Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s “sRI gurU grMQ swihb drpx”, from page (6268 of 6299) from the .pdf downloaded from http://www.gurbanifiles.org/,

siqgurU jI dw AwdrS:
KrHvIAW g`lW dw au~qr KrHvy l&zW ivc dyxw bVw koJw qy As`BX au~dm hY [ pr AslIAq ƒ Awp smJxw qy hornW dI smJ-gocrw bxwxw hryk mnu`K dw &rz hY [ AsI dwhvw nhIN krdy ik siqgurU nwnk dyv jI sMsik®q dy ivdvwn sn, jW, auh Aswƒ sMsik®q ivc ilKIAW vyd Awidk Drm-pusqkW pVHwx Awey sn [ auh qW DrqI dy ivlkdy qy sVdy jIvW ƒ jIvn dw shI rwh d`s ky ‘Kunk nwmu KudwieAw’ dy ky TMF vrqwx Awey sn [ lokW ƒ auhnW dIAW aukweIAW Aqy jIvn dw shI rsqw qW hI d`isAw jw skdw sI, jy auh lokW dI smJ-gocrI bolI ivc g`lW krn [ jgq ivc AwieAw hryk gurU pYZMbr Avqwr iehI kudrqI qrIkw vrqdw AwieAw hY, qy iehI vriqAw jw skdw sI [

Summary: Guru ji used common people's ways and understanding and politely guided them towards wisdom. The approach was non-confrontational and based on cool demeanor.

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Veer Ambarsariaji

I am not going to mince words here, there is a certain logic, a lazy logic that makes certain types see only the exterior of what we call life. These people waft through life content to see what I would call the obvious, thus, all the Hindu Gods mentioned in the SGGS are validation of existance, reincarnation is to die and be reborn, etc etc.

There are certain lines in the SGGS that are gently mocking to certain concepts, and it never ceases to amaze me that instead of diverting people away from such, some people mistake it for lauding.

To have these people in any authority is extremely dangerous for Sikhism, yet, the upper posts seem filled to the brim by the same. First and foremost, in my view, before hair, kirpans, kacheras, comes wisdom, understanding, compassion, empathy and most importantly love. Yet we increasingly find people who claim to represent Sikhism devoid of all these, whilst striving for the perfection in physical form.

For a Sikh to believe in magic, and for a Sikh to believe that magic can be superior and equal to Creator is lunacy. Sometimes circumstances can be spooky, sometimes life can be strange, weird and wonderful things can happen, but the minute we give up on logical explanations and embrace the possibility that it is down to 'magic', in my view, we have lost touch with Creator and Creation, it is a slippery slope to ritual, Babas and people that claim to understand the 'magic' and can reverse it for you, for a fee of course.

There is no magic in Sikhism, as stated clearly in the SRM. Possibly one of the few things that it got right.

Harry Haller · Oct 14, 2012

Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)

Any effort to make changes in it will open floodgates for each SANT , BABA , DERA , institutions with agenda , political parties with an agenda like Congress ,BJP(RSS) & Badals to rush in with their own CORRECTIONS

They currently do not need to, they just make their own.

Possibly the best thing to do is to figure out who is the monkey, and who is the organ grinder

BhagatSingh · Oct 14, 2012

There are certain lines in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are gently mocking to certain concepts, and it never ceases to amaze me that instead of diverting people away from such, some people mistake it for lauding.

Let's see them Harry ji.

Harry Haller · Oct 15, 2012

BhagatSingh said:
Let's see them Harry ji.

Well if you insist, although I really cannot see the point, you know very well what I am talking about, I guess your bored again

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਬਰਦਾਤਾ ॥
इक मनि पुरखु धिआइ बरदाता ॥
Ik man purakẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e barḏāṯā.
Meditate single-mindedly on the Primal Lord God, the Bestower of blessings.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਤ ਸਹਾਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਬਿਖਿਆਤਾ ॥
संत सहारु सदा बिखिआता ॥
Sanṯ sahār saḏā bikẖi▫āṯā.
He is the Helper and Support of the Saints, manifest forever.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਨ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਉ ॥
तासु चरन ले रिदै बसावउ ॥
Ŧās cẖaran le riḏai basāva▫o.
Grasp His Feet and enshrine them in your heart.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਉ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੧॥
तउ परम गुरू नानक गुन गावउ ॥१॥
Ŧa▫o param gurū Nānak gun gāva▫o. ||1||
Then, let us sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak. ||1||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਨ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਦੁਰਤ ਨਿਵਾਰਣ ਸਬਦ ਸਰੇ ॥
गावउ गुन परम गुरू सुख सागर दुरत निवारण सबद सरे ॥
Gāva▫o gun param gurū sukẖ sāgar ḏuraṯ nivāraṇ sabaḏ sare.
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਧੀਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
गावहि ग्मभीर धीर मति सागर जोगी जंगम धिआनु धरे ॥
Gāvahi gambẖīr ḏẖīr maṯ sāgar jogī jangam ḏẖi▫ān ḏẖare.
The beings of deep and profound understanding, oceans of wisdom, sing of Him; the Yogis and wandering hermits meditate on Him.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿਕ ਆਤਮ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
गावहि इंद्रादि भगत प्रहिलादिक आतम रसु जिनि जाणिओ ॥
Gāvahi inḏrāḏ bẖagaṯ par▫hilāḏik āṯam ras jin jāṇi▫o.
Indra and devotees like Prahlaad, who know the joy of the soul, sing of Him.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੨॥
कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥२॥
Kab kal sujas gāva▫o gur Nānak rāj jog jin māṇi▫o. ||2||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ॥
गावहि जनकादि जुगति जोगेसुर हरि रस पूरन सरब कला ॥
Gāvahi jankāḏ jugaṯ jogesur har ras pūran sarab kalā.
King Janak and the great Yogic heroes of the Lord's Way, sing the Praises of the All-powerful Primal Being, filled with the sublime essence of the Lord.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਿਧਾਦਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਅਛਲ ਛਲਾ ॥
गावहि सनकादि साध सिधादिक मुनि जन गावहि अछल छला ॥
Gāvahi sankāḏ sāḏẖ siḏẖāḏik mun jan gāvahi acẖẖal cẖẖalā.
Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਧੋਮੁ ਅਟਲ ਮੰਡਲਵੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
गावै गुण धोमु अटल मंडलवै भगति भाइ रसु जाणिओ ॥
Gāvai guṇ ḏẖom atal mandlavai bẖagaṯ bẖā▫e ras jāṇi▫o.
Dhoma the seer and Dhroo, whose realm is unmoving, sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the ecstasy of loving devotional worship.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥३॥
Kab kal sujas gāva▫o gur Nānak rāj jog jin māṇi▫o. ||3||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
गावहि कपिलादि आदि जोगेसुर अपर्मपर अवतार वरो ॥
Gāvahi kapilāḏ āḏ jogesur aprampar avṯār varo.
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵੈ ਜਮਦਗਨਿ ਪਰਸਰਾਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਰ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਰਘੁ ਤੇਜੁ ਹਰਿਓ ॥
गावै जमदगनि परसरामेसुर कर कुठारु रघु तेजु हरिओ ॥
Gāvai jamaḏgan parasrāmesur kar kuṯẖār ragẖ ṯej hari▫o.
Parasraam the son of Jamdagan, whose axe and powers were taken away by Raghuvira, sing of Him.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਉਧੌ ਅਕ੍ਰੂਰੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਰਬਾਤਮੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
उधौ अक्रूरु बिदरु गुण गावै सरबातमु जिनि जाणिओ ॥
Uḏẖou akrūr biḏar guṇ gāvai sarbāṯam jin jāṇi▫o.
Udho, Akrur and Bidur sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord, the Soul of All.
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੪॥
कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥४॥
Kab kal sujas gāva▫o gur Nānak rāj jog jin māṇi▫o. ||4||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||4||
</td></tr></tbody></table>

So there you have it, is it a validation or lauding of all the names mentioned? or is it gently trying to tell us that all these celestial superheros are merely mythical and all pointing towards a formless ageless energy?

I already know your feelings on the matter, and you know mine, let us leave it at that, as the debate on the subject is already as old as the hills.

back to the topic?

BhagatSingh · Oct 15, 2012

Harry ji,
I like to listen to views of all kinds. To me it's like a landscape. Anyways go on with your take on it. I will stay out of this one.

What is you understanding of the shabad? Is this at odds with someone who takes the characters to be real?

Who is Raja Janak, Prahlaad, Indra, Dhruv, Sanak, Brahma, Sanak, Kapila, Parshuram, Raghuvir, Udho, Akrur, Bidhur? and their relationship to Hari?

Why is this Brahmin poet calling Guru Nanak an incarnation of Hari? Why are other incarnations of Hari, ie. Kapila, Raghuvir and Parshuram singing of Guru Nanak?

Guru Nanak is a master of Raj Yog, what does this mean?

And finally how is the mocking those concepts, characters etc?

Harry Haller · Oct 15, 2012

What is you understanding of the shabad?

My understanding is that all roads lead to Rome.

Is this at odds with someone who takes the characters to be real?

Absolutely

Who is Raja Janak, Prahlaad, Indra, Dhruv, Sanak, Brahma, Sanak, Kapila, Parshuram, Raghuvir, Udho, Akrur, Bidhur? and their relationship to Hari?

They are fictional characters, referenced for the sake of relativity.

Why is this Brahmin poet calling Guru Nanak an incarnation of Hari? Why are other incarnations of Hari, ie. Kapila, Raghuvir and Parshuram singing of Guru Nanak?

again, for the sake of relativity .

Guru Nanak is a master of Raj Yog, what does this mean?

This means that the path he has taken, makes him a master of all forms of devotion by the virtue of his understanding and wisdom.

And finally how is the mocking those concepts, characters etc?

If there is only one Creator, and that Creator is formless, never gets born, and never dies, than the authority held by names mentioned is clearly misplaced. I also used the word 'gently', as someone who is familiar with double speak and subterfuge, I would have thought you would understand this 0

I admire you hugely, as an artist, and as someone with a completely open mind, in fact, as you may remember, I have sought your open minded opinion on a few matters, however, I feel one should nail ones colours to ones flag, otherwise one stands for everything and nothing mundahug

I aso know you are big enough to deal with my sarcasm, no offence intended

BhagatSingh · Oct 15, 2012

harry haller said:
My understanding is that all roads lead to Rome.

Understanding of the shabad?

Absolutely

How so?

They are fictional characters, referenced for the sake of relativity.

Ok but who are they and why do they belong here?

again, for the sake of relativity .

Ok but why is it being said? What does it mean?

If there is only one Creator, and that Creator is formless, never gets born, and never dies, than the authority held by names mentioned is clearly misplaced.

I'm guessing you read that as something is that is not relativity?
How do you decide what is for the sake of relativity and what is not?

I also used the word 'gently', as someone who is familiar with double speak and subterfuge, I would have thought you would understand this 0
I admire you hugely, as an artist, and as someone with a completely open mind, in fact, as you may remember, I have sought your open minded opinion on a few matters, however, I feel one should nail ones colours to ones flag, otherwise one stands for everything and nothing mundahug

I aso know you are big enough to deal with my sarcasm, no offence intended

What sarcasm? Do you realize it's difficult to convey or understand sarcasm in mere font? I cannot take offence to what I don't understand, namely the quoted text above.

Harry Haller · Oct 15, 2012

Do you realize it's difficult to convey or understand sarcasm in mere font?

No, I do not find this problem, once you know someones writing style, the underlying message is not too hard to decipher.If you add that to known opinions, then it can be easier to grasp the context of what is written.

This applies to your writings as it does to the SGGS. There are aspects of Creator that are written in stone, the physical, the essence, if you carry those aspects whilst you read, then the obvious becomes irrelevant, you match up what you know with what you are reading and understand on both the obvious level, and the intimated level.

That is my belief, those that believe in merely the written word without taking into account what Creator stands for are entitled to theirs

Ambarsaria · Oct 15, 2012

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your post. I have one comment.

BhagatSingh said:
Ok but who are they and why do they belong here?

Guru ji have always recognized what was going on around them. They were not shy or lacked confidence in citing what people did. The biggest mistake that many readers continue to make, in my humble opinion that has included you at times, is the following,

When Guru ji cite the goings on the following should be recognized,

They write to address people so cited.
They do not condone or otherwise recognize the relevance of such people doing all they do.
They flag the fallacies of many activities and approaches.
Their objective is two fold.
1. To take people away from such falsehoods, premises, beliefs.
2. To awaken others to not fall for it.

I hope above clarifies and it is not to be of offense to you or anyone else.

Sat Sri Akal.

Luckysingh · Oct 15, 2012

They flag the fallacies of many activities and approaches.

Their objective is two fold.

To take people away from such falsehoods, premises, beliefs.

To awaken others to not fall for it.

I'm not too sure about points 3 and 4.
As I have come to understand that none of these characters or deities were ever denied by the Guru.
.
Let's think a minute- If that shabad was being explained to my kids, the first thing they will ask is -'' Were these people real ?''
If I say they were not, we don't believe in them as we believe in sikhism, then they will further question
-'' Why does the guru mention them then, if they were fake ?''

This is where, I as an adult have to think of 'what I should say without confusing them ?'

I can see the angle that both Bhagatji and Harryji are approaching this.
It has taken me a while, but I do understand Bhagatji's stance on the matter.
I remember disagreeing with him just like yourselves many months back.

What I have gathered is that when references are made to mythological figures, we should pay attention to their characters and not them. This is the difference between a hindu and a sikh, as a tyical hindu will worship the devi stone as a god and not pay too much attention to the character of what she stands for.
The Gurus mentioned these and applied their characters to the relevant shabads to give more weight and explaining.

For example there are many mentions of chitrgupt or chitr and gupt.
To deny them, is to deny what they stood for and meant.- The guru never denied them.
However, their inclusions in to the shabads make one realise that the characters and what they stood for i.e. accounting good and bad deeds etc.. are to inform us that we can't commit bad deeds assuming that because no-one is aware or notices them that they don't mean anything. They still go on our accounts so to speak, they still determine where we stand in the eyes of the lord.
It doesn't mean, hang -on, no one saw me do that bad deed and no one was hurt, but damn that chitr and gupt must know about it !!
This is not the reason for their inclusion.

Therfore, I find that to understand what they stood for is very important than simply ignoring them as fake or fiction.
The Guru doesn't tell us if they are real or not, or wether to believe in their existences.
That is something that we just start doing by ignoring the real purpose and pushing the message aside and going further to determine if they are fiction and fake.

The whole fake or fiction issue doesn't really matter, so why even argue about it.
In those times a great deal of scholars were aware of all these figures and the guru's word addressed everyone. These scholars with their beliefs and knowledge, could come to understand the gurus word and message.
The existence of these figures wasn't highlighted by the guru, but the purpose and what they meant is what was of greater importance.

We should think to ourselves ''why were they included in this shabad?''
Then when we understand that and what each figure represented, then we begin to get the true essence of the message.

My knowledge on these is not that good, but I have started to try and learn as much as I can now, because the message of the gurbani becomes even more deeper when you learn this.
My advice is to give some attention and regard to these inclusions, it doesn't matter if you believe or deny them, but if you ignore them then you move away from the true word of the guru.

So, having said this, I'm sure Ambarsaria ji you can see why I disagree with points 3 and 4.
As I think that the Guru did NOT include them to stop people believing these existences or falsehoods.
But it was to understand that the qualites can't be denied in our existence.

Simlpy put- the figures have a god/goddess of fear, god or goddes or fire, god or goddes of wealth..and so on,...etc...etc..
Now, this does NOT mean that fear exists because of so n so god, and fire exists because of so n so goddess for example.
BUT these qualites exist and are present as part of creation regardless of who you may associate them with.

I think you can understand what I mean here and am trying to get across.

Waheguru

Ambarsaria · Oct 15, 2012

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post I have some comments.

Luckysingh said:
I'm not too sure about points 3 and 4.
As I have come to understand that none of these characters or deities were ever denied by the Guru.
.
Let's think a minute- If that shabad was being explained to my kids, the first thing they will ask is -'' Were these people real ?''
Guru ji said it does not matter if they were real or fake. It is what people believing these that Guru ji wanted to address.

Luckysingh said:
If I say they were not, we don't believe in them as we believe in sikhism, then they will further question
-'' Why does the guru mention them then, if they were fake ?''
Not everyone believed in all of them. But Guru ji tried to cover as many so that the ones who did a specific one, they could understand Guru ji’s Sikhi message.

Luckysingh said:
This is where, I as an adult have to think of 'what I should say without confusing them ?'

I can see the angle that both Bhagatji and Harryji are approaching this.
It has taken me a while, but I do understand Bhagatji's stance on the matter.
I remember disagreeing with him just like yourselves many months back.

What I have gathered is that when references are made to mythological figures, we should pay attention to their characters and not them. This is the difference between a hindu and a sikh, as a tyical hindu will worship the devi stone as a god and not pay too much attention to the character of what she stands for.
It cannot be assumed of a Sikh to become a definer of fake or real mythologies of other religions. It is a confrontational approach. The answer is regardless of fake or real the one who this was addressed to knew of certain set of complete or incomplete characterizations. There is nothing for a Sikh to investigate were there not even a single reference to these in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The references serve the purpose towards those who had interest vested or forward looking.

Luckysingh said:
The Gurus mentioned these and applied their characters to the relevant shabads to give more weight and explaining.
Veer ji for a Sikh there is little need to address such stuff. It really is for those who believed in these or had vested interest in these. Namely Hindus of the times.

Luckysingh said:
For example there are many mentions of chitrgupt or chitr and gupt.
To deny them, is to deny what they stood for and meant.- The guru never denied them.
However, their inclusions in to the shabads make one realise that the characters and what they stood for i.e. accounting good and bad deeds etc.. are to inform us that we can't commit bad deeds assuming that because no-one is aware or notices them that they don't mean anything. They still go on our accounts so to speak, they still determine where we stand in the eyes of the lord.
It doesn't mean, hang -on, no one saw me do that bad deed and no one was hurt, but damn that chitr and gupt must know about it !!
This is not the reason for their inclusion.

Therfore, I find that to understand what they stood for is very important than simply ignoring them as fake or fiction.
It is absolutely not important to study these citations greater than common coming across by chance. Those who are interested through adoption or desire to believe can do so. These are addressed to those.

Luckysingh said:
The Guru doesn't tell us if they are real or not, or whether to believe in their existences.
That is something that we just start doing by ignoring the real purpose and pushing the message aside and going further to determine if they are fiction and fake.
Veer ji you are really assigning a purpose that you think existed. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not require us to study any Hindu deities. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is inclusively addressing all kinds of believers including Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and multi variations of Yogis, Brahmins, occultism believers, etc.

Luckysingh said:
The whole fake or fiction issue doesn't really matter, so why even argue about it.
In those times a great deal of scholars were aware of all these figures and the guru's word addressed everyone. These scholars with their beliefs and knowledge, could come to understand the gurus word and message.
Veer ji Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not for the scholars. It is for all who can relate to their beliefs as cited or simply want to get the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Sikhs without any other religious affiliations.

Luckysingh said:
The existence of these figures wasn't highlighted by the guru, but the purpose and what they meant is what was of greater importance.
The purpose was to address people who felt their associations with such were important to them. For a Sikh it is really irrelevant whether what Vishnu is believed to have done or what Ram stood for.

Luckysingh said:
We should think to ourselves ''why were they included in this shabad?''
They were included to address the people who saw such behavior or were in the conduct of such beliefs and behavior.

Luckysingh said:
Then when we understand that and what each figure represented, then we begin to get the true essence of the message.
To get the true message Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not require external study for a Sikh. For non-Sikhs or other belief holders it perhaps does.

Luckysingh said:
My knowledge on these is not that good, but I have started to try and learn as much as I can now, because the message of the gurbani becomes even more deeper when you learn this.
Absolutely like chewing gum for the brain. Let those who believe in any of these do the study.

Luckysingh said:
My advice is to give some attention and regard to these inclusions, it doesn't matter if you believe or deny them, but if you ignore them then you move away from the true word of the guru.
Guru ji did not feel the need to believe or deny them as it really is irrelevant. If you don’t have visibility in the first place you do not need to go overboard in such pursuits.

Luckysingh said:
So, having said this, I'm sure Ambarsaria ji you can see why I disagree with points 3 and 4.
I hope the above explains why I have the points that I did include.

Luckysingh said:
As I think that the Guru did NOT include them to stop people believing these existences or falsehoods.
But it was to understand that the qualites can't be denied in our existence.
I am sorry Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not assign special qualities to any such characters individually or collectively. This is the mind bending that is going on to connect Sikhism to Hinduism.

Luckysingh said:
Simlpy put- the figures have a god/goddess of fear, god or goddes or fire, god or goddes of wealth..and so on,...etc...etc..
Now, this does NOT mean that fear exists because of so n so god, and fire exists because of so n so goddess for example.
BUT these qualites exist and are present as part of creation regardless of who you may associate them with.
These references are simply for those who so believe. They matter zilch to me as a Sikh.

Luckysingh said:
I think you can understand what I mean here and am trying to get across.
I see your logic but I respectfully disagree.

Sat Sri Akal.

BhagatSingh · Oct 15, 2012

Can we all agree that during the times of Gurus these characters and stories were believed in, known by the majority of the population?

In India, this is certainly the case even today. The stories are everywhere, in images, in media, in daily conversation. We speak of stories and narratives of our time, stories like big bang, space exploration, evolution by natural selection, string theory, similarly the narratives in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji represent the stories of Guru ji's times and they are not to be taken lightly.

Imagine you are a great spiritual teacher of our time. You write a book, inspire millions into following your path, and die in peace. Your book gets analyzed by those from a different culture and belief system. They study your book, and say "When Harry mentions big bang theory, this is not because he himself believes in big bang theory, but because the people whom he was talking to were believers in big bang, and thus to relate to them he used big bang theory as only a metaphor. Big bang did not really happen, and Ambarsaria did not actually believe in it. It is for the sake of relativity."

This is just a ridiculous claim.

For someone from that culture to understand what 'Sant' Harry and 'Guru' Ambarsaria said and why they said it, they would need to study the big bang theory, along with the related narratives of our Harry's and Ambarsaria's times, our times. They would have to study our culture, our books, pretty everything about us and our environment in order to understand their message.

This is true of any of the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they are from a different time period, different culture. No one in our time and culture (western culture) can take them seriously because we were born in a different environment. We do not constantly hear of the exploits of Chandi in battle, nor hear of the 24 incarnations of Hari. Thus we do not take them to be real or meaningful in anyway.

And that's ok. I am not saying to force yourself to do this. I know you can't. Neither can I. For us, those tales do not register on a level they should and indeed did for Gurus and their contemporaries. You guys have made it clear with ample evidence on the forums that they don't register on any level with you. And that's ok.

But what is not Ok, is when you go around and claim that those who believe in those tales, for whom those tales resonate, are at odds with the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is just false, for they are more in touch with the culture of Guru ji's times than you are.

And what is equally false is when you claim that there is no need to study that culture. No need to study the belief systems of Gurus and their contemporaries. That is just too ridiculous a claim. It's uninformed.

These characters need to be looked in to for us to get a deeper understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Of course the level to which their tales register on any meaningful level will vary with each person. But it would be agreed that they were meaningful to Guru Sahibs and their contemporaries, and need to studied in order to better understand their message.

And this is the way of a scholar. To study things in depth, which means studying things that at first may not be meaningful. And only through, either studying ourselves, or by listening to someone who has studied themselves, or both, can we gain a superior insight into Sikh theology, belief system, practices and the path to God.

Harry Haller · Oct 16, 2012

Can we all agree that during the times of Gurus these characters and stories were believed in, known by the majority of the population?

yes

In India, this is certainly the case even today. The stories are everywhere, in images, in media, in daily conversation. We speak of stories and narratives of our time, stories like big bang, space exploration, evolution by natural selection, string theory, similarly the narratives in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji represent the stories of Guru ji's times and they are not to be taken lightly.

There is a marked difference between big bang, space exploration, etc and some Hindu visualisations (beings composed of animals with multi limbs). It is interesting to note that although India had a huge Muslim population at the time, it is only the Hindu Gods that are mentioned with some frequency. Is this because Islam already shared the concept of one God, without form, withour birth or death.

Imagine you are a great spiritual teacher of our time. You write a book, inspire millions into following your path, and die in peace. Your book gets analyzed by those from a different culture and belief system. They study your book, and say "When Harry mentions big bang theory, this is not because he himself believes in big bang theory, but because the people whom he was talking to were believers in big bang, and thus to relate to them he used big bang theory as only a metaphor. Big bang did not really happen, and Ambarsaria did not actually believe in it. It is for the sake of relativity."

I would find that acceptable, it is the message that is important, not the Big Bang theory.

This is just a ridiculous claim.

Neither myself nor my brother Ambarsariaji have ridiculed your thoughts, under what authority are you able to make this statement?

For someone from that culture to understand what 'Sant' Harry and 'Guru' Ambarsaria said and why they said it, they would need to study the big bang theory, along with the related narratives of our Harry's and Ambarsaria's times, our times. They would have to study our culture, our books, pretty everything about us and our environment in order to understand their message.

Not at all, if Sant Harry and Guru Ambarsaria had made it clear from the outset that the Big Bang theory was something that was not the answer. Where there is contradiction, I think the bigger hand wins. Creator is formless, ageless, does not die, these are the three Aces as far as I am concerned, they beat all other hands.

This is true of any of the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they are from a different time period, different culture. No one in our time and culture (western culture) can take them seriously because we were born in a different environment. We do not constantly hear of the exploits of Chandi in battle, nor hear of the 24 incarnations of Hari. Thus we do not take them to be real or meaningful in anyway.

I think the authors had great foresight.

But what is not Ok, is when you go around and claim that those who believe in those tales, for whom those tales resonate, are at odds with the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is just false, for they are more in touch with the culture of Guru ji's times than you are.

I have never said that what I write is definitive, I take great pains to use words such as 'I think', 'I feel', 'in my opinion', however I note that you write quite definitively. Those that are more in touch with the culture of Guruji's time are welcome to it, it is amusing to note that it is this very culture that the Gurujis were trying to get us away from.........., the culture you are welcome to, I am more interested in the wisdom.

And what is equally false is when you claim that there is no need to study that culture. No need to study the belief systems of Gurus and their contemporaries. That is just too ridiculous a claim. It's uninformed.

There is that word again 'ridiculous', and 'equally false', you are welcome to believe in what you wish, I have no desire to convert anyone, yet you seem to believe that you have a monopoly on the truth, not content with pushing your own agenda, you seem to feel you have some authority ridiculing anothers beliefs, namely, mine..........

These characters need to be looked in to for us to get a deeper understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Of course the level to which their tales register on any meaningful level will vary with each person. But it would be agreed that they were meaningful to Guru Sahibs and their contemporaries, and need to studied in order to better understand their message.

I do not recall agreeing to this, I didn't vote for it! The only person that agrees with this are those of your mindset, but we are all free to believe in what we wish. We are all free to study what we wish, perhaps as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions Goblins, we should study Goblins too?

And this is the way of a scholar. To study things in depth, which means studying things that at first may not be meaningful. And only through, either studying ourselves, or by listening to someone who has studied themselves, or both, can we gain a superior insight into Sikh theology, belief system, practices and the path to God.

Agreed, if you wish to be scholar, I could not care less about being a scholar, I just wish to live my life by some meaningful code.

Talk about making something harder than it should be! I will be honest, I have little time for anything other than keeping my thoughts, words and actions in line with that little voice in my head, its that simple, and every now and then I read up to update the data file for that voice in my head, and that concludes completely my understanding of Sikhism

Luckysingh · Oct 16, 2012

I gather 4 points being made here by Ambarsariaji and Harryji.

1) You don't need to understand the mythological characters mentioned or the brief stories behind them to deeply understand the message in gurbani.

2) These references are just in there for that audience of that time and can be ignored by the rest.

3) They are included so as to highlight their falsehoods..etc.for those followers.

4) We do NOT need to learn of the stories and myths behind mentioned figures as this may take us further away from gurmat and sikhi as opposed to bringing us closer to the guru's word.

If I am wrong about these 4 conclusions then I do apologise and will step back from this subject and re-approach it with a fresher mindset.

Harry Haller · Oct 16, 2012

Luckyji

I have no interest in the spirituality, all this closed eyes listening to shabads just leaves me cold, all I want out of Sikhism is to know how to behave, how to act, so that when situations come into my life, I can deal with them by way of some idea of the truth. That is what I want.

For my dear veer BhagatSinghji, it is different, whilst at his age I was drinking, fornicating, and experimenting with various substances, he is hungry, hungry for truth, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, he needs to know it all 100%, and I have no doubt he will be, (in my view he already is) a great scholar, his understanding and wisdom in years to come will dwarf us all (btw that is not sarcasm, that is sincere), whereas I just want to spend the rest of my life, which, due to the abuses on my body, optimistically will not be any longer than 10 or 15 years in some peace.

I simply do not have the time to embrace what Bhagat Singhji has embraced, I wish I did, but I do not.

If what you need, is complete understanding then you need to know about everything Goblins and all, if you just require a code to live your life by, then you do not need to worry about the Goblins.

Oh, and for the record, I am not being facetious

<table cellspacing="25" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>Page 841, Line 12
ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਭੂਤ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਲਾਏ ॥
प्रेत भूत सभि दूजै लाए ॥
Pareṯ bẖūṯ sabẖ ḏūjai lā▫e.
All the goblins and demons are attached to duality.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 963, Line 8
ਪਸੂ ਪਰੇਤ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਇਕ ਖਣੇ ॥
पसू परेत अगिआन उधारे इक खणे ॥
Pasū pareṯ agi▫ān uḏẖāre ik kẖaṇe.
Even ignorant beasts and goblins can be saved, in an instant.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1031, Line 14
ਦੁੰਦਰ ਦੂਤ ਭੂਤ ਭੀਹਾਲੇ ॥
दुंदर दूत भूत भीहाले ॥
Ḏunḏar ḏūṯ bẖūṯ bẖīhāle.
They are argumentative demons, terrifying goblins.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1131, Line 16
ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਤਾ ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਪਰਮ ਹੰਸ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
कलि महि प्रेत जिन्ही रामु न पछाता सतजुगि परम हंस बीचारी ॥
Kal mėh pareṯ jinĥī rām na pacẖẖāṯā saṯjug param hans bīcẖārī.
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, those who do not realize the Lord are goblins. In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, the supreme soul-swans contemplated the Lord.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1248, Line 19
ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਨਿਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਸ ਆਵ ਘਟੈ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
जमकालु निहाले सास आव घटै बेतालिआ ॥
Jamkāl nihāle sās āv gẖatai beṯāli▫ā.
But the Messenger of Death keeps his gaze on their breath, and the life of those goblins decreases day by day.
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr><tr><td>Page 1347, Line 13
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਹ ਮਹਾ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥
जह देखउ तह महा चंडाल ॥
Jah ḏekẖ▫a▫u ṯah mahā cẖandāl.
Wherever I look, I see the most horrible goblins.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]</td></tr></tbody></table>

Alan491 · Oct 16, 2012

I like to listen to views of all kinds. To me it's like a landscape. Anyways go on with your take on it. I will stay out of this one.

Luckysingh · Oct 16, 2012

Does that mean that the 4 points I had concluded were wrong ?

1) You don't need to understand the mythological characters mentioned or the brief stories behind them to deeply understand the message in gurbani.

2) These references are just in there for that audience of that time and can be ignored by the rest.

3) They are included so as to highlight their falsehoods..etc.for those followers.

4) We do NOT need to learn of the stories and myths behind mentioned figures as this may take us further away from gurmat and sikhi as opposed to bringing us closer to the guru's word.

If I am wrong about these 4 conclusions then I do apologise and will step back from this subject and re-approach it with a fresher mindset.

I said I would step back and re-approach if any of the 4 points or conclusions were wrong. Remember these are what I conclude from your posts and not what I am saying.

Harry Haller · Oct 16, 2012

apologies, post edited

Occultism - Rejection In Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

dalbirk

Harry Haller

Harry Haller

BhagatSingh

Harry Haller

BhagatSingh

Harry Haller

BhagatSingh

Harry Haller

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

Luckysingh

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

BhagatSingh

Harry Haller

Luckysingh

Harry Haller

Alan491

Luckysingh

Harry Haller

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