Sikh Atheism

I am a proud Sikh, proud of our history and what the Gurus have done for us. However, I just cannot believe in the concept of God, who created everything, especially when science has proved otherwise. I feel troubled and divided, but I strongly believe that because Sikhism is a spiritual religion, the idea of God can be seperated from our religion.

Can anyone back me up here?

Dear SKD179,

I understand what you are saying, but the truth is that the concept of waheguru or god is an integral part of sikhism. Sikhism's foundation is on the belief of one creator. You must also understand that science hasn't proved that god doesnt exsist. Science has discovered many things that are still unexplained. Also understand that god cannot be found with our 5 senses, you must connect with waheguru with your soul through nam simran. God is beyond our 5 senses.
I know that doesnt help that much, but it should clear some things up

Everything we precieve about the environment is through our 5 senses. The nerves on our hands, in our ears, eyes, nose,etc all give electrical signals to different parts of our brain. What if this isnt reality, what if we are just brains in a jar controlled by somebody who is just giving electrical signals to different parts of the brain?? Do we exist??. Just something to think about.

skd1709 said:

I am a proud Sikh, proud of our history and what the Gurus have done for us. However, I just cannot believe in the concept of God, who created everything, especially when science has proved otherwise. I feel troubled and divided, but I strongly believe that because Sikhism is a spiritual religion, the idea of God can be seperated from our religion.

Can anyone back me up here?

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I can totally understand what you are going through as I have been there my self.
Science has not disproved the existence of a Sikh God. Read SGGS the Sikh God is VERY different from other Gods. This God cannot be disproven. :yes: How can He/She/It be disproven when Sikhs relate him to energy, infinity, universal law, etc?

In Sikhism having a God has a purpose. Sikhi says One God and we all belong to the same God, which is a big step towards unity and equality of mankind. Sikhi says God is served through serving humanity, what better way to make the world a better place. By attributing all our deeds to God and by meditating, we all able to stay away from extreme emotions (the five thieves as some call them).

God is Sargun (all attributes) meaning all things you see around you. God is also nirgun (no attbutes) meaning nothing around you. So God exists and doesn't, at the same time! What does that tell you? That you can not believe in God all you want and still belive in him. And you can believe in him all you want and still not believe in him. That kind of makes every Sikh an atheist. So if you are atheist Sikh then be proud! (Although you don't have to call yourself atheist)

Ek Onkar Gur Prasad
Mr. Bhagat, I can only hope that someday this anxiety which you are going through regarding the concept of GOD would become the very source of your bhagati and therfore making you the Bhagat as you name suggest.

Lets us begin: Irrespective of any religion to whom one may belong everyone of us agree that GOD, that almighty power/being is complete in itself. It doesn't require any external support for its existence.Now we bring in Science as you have mentioned in your post that science has proved otherwise.Please note here, only when one thing is complete in itself can it be used to evaluate or assess the other. No subjects wheather, science, history,geography,mathematics, chemistry or any other is complete in itself.As you said, science has proved otherwise but the subject science itself is incomplete. We know laws of physics but we don't know why they exist. Since all of us consider GOD to be complete, then only that person, subject,or material which is complete in itself can evaluate GOD. Since there is nothing independently existing by itself beside GOD, so any evaluation we make or we come up with is in error.
Hope this will clarify your anxiety regarding science.
Regarding the concept of GOD: I would appreciate if you could ask you question in more details. But I would still try.
In Sikhism there is only one GOD who is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the world. As a human my goal is to have union with GOD.Please note that as a human I keep it as a goal to have union with GOD but it doesn't mean that I am seperated from GOD. Since we all came from GOD, we have GOD in us. The soul is part of GOD itself.Having union with GOD is like going back to our home from where all these started. Guru is seen as the most important thing in Sikhism as Guru act as a bridge for a Sikh to realize GOD.Three things are very important Nam Japna(Meditating on GOD), Kirat Karna(doing ur actions as they are supposed to be done), Vadka Shakna(Sharing with others).
Again please refer you question in what respect you don't understnad the concept of GOD.
Once again I want to repeat regarding science, Only a complete thing can evaluate another complete thing. How can we use science which is incomplete in itself
to measure the GOD we all consider complete.
Thanking You.

AjitFlora ji, he says

However, I just cannot believe in the concept of God

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and you are saying

Again please refer you question in what respect you don't understnad the concept of GOD.

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---------------------------------------------

Only a complete thing can evaluate another complete thing. How can we use science which is incomplete in itself
to measure the GOD we all consider complete.

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God is sargun. agreed? Sargun is all attributes, therefore God has all attributes. agreed? Therefore, God is both complete and incomplete. and hence, we can use something incomplete to evaluate him/her/it.

BhagatSingh said:

I can totally understand what you are going through as I have been there my self.
Science has not disproved the existence of a Sikh God. Read SGGS the Sikh God is VERY different from other Gods. This God cannot be disproven. :yes: How can He/She/It be disproven when Sikhs relate him to energy, infinity, universal law, etc?

In Sikhism having a God has a purpose. Sikhi says One God and we all belong to the same God, which is a big step towards unity and equality of mankind. Sikhi says God is served through serving humanity, what better way to make the world a better place. By attributing all our deeds to God and by meditating, we all able to stay away from extreme emotions (the five thieves as some call them).

God is Sargun (all attributes) meaning all things you see around you. God is also nirgun (no attbutes) meaning nothing around you. So God exists and doesn't, at the same time! What does that tell you? That you can not believe in God all you want and still belive in him. And you can believe in him all you want and still not believe in him. That kind of makes every Sikh an atheist. So if you are atheist Sikh then be proud! (Although you don't have to call yourself atheist)

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Your post if full of contradictions.

There is a saying " Jaan rah piya jane, Jaan vaah piya jane" you like many in this forum have neither. Just Words. Gallein Yog na hove.

Pehaps you have responded in a hurry?

BhagatSingh said:

AjitFlora ji, he says and you are saying ---------------------------------------------
God is sargun. agreed? Sargun is all attributes, therefore God has all attributes. agreed? Therefore, God is both complete and incomplete. and hence, we can use something incomplete to evaluate him/her/it.

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There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands
of heavenly worlds above. The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary. The scriptures
say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe. If you try to write an account of this, you will surely
finish yourself before you finish writing it. O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. || 22 || The praisers praise
the Lord, but they do not obtain intuitive understanding.the streams and rivers flowing into the ocean do not know its
vastness. Even kings and emperors, with mountains of property and oceans of wealth.these are not even equal to an ant,
who does not forget God. || 23 || Endless are His Praises, endless are those who speak them. Endless are His Actions,
endless are His Gifts. Endless is His Vision, endless is His Hearing. His limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of His
Mind? The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to
know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits. The more you say about them, the more there
still remains to be said. Great is the Master, High is His Heavenly Home. Highest of the High, above all is His Name. Only one
as Great and as High as God can know His Lofty and Exalted State. Only He Himself is that Great. He Himself knows Himself. O​

Nanak, by His Glance of Grace, He bestows His Blessings. || 24 ||ang 5


AASAA, FIRST MEHL: Hearing of His Greatness, everyone calls Him Great. But just how Great His Greatness is.this is known
only to those who have seen Him. His Value cannot be estimated; He cannot be described. Those who describe You, Lord,
remain immersed and absorbed in You. || 1 || O my Great Lord and Master of Unfathomable Depth, You are the Ocean of
Excellence. No one knows the extent or the vastness of Your Expanse. || 1 || Pause || All the intuitives met and practiced
intuitive meditation. All the appraisers met and made the appraisal. The spiritual teachers, the teachers of meditation, and the
teachers of teachers.they cannot describe even an iota of Your Greatness. || 2 || All Truth, all austere discipline, all
goodness, all the great miraculous spiritual powers of the Siddhas.without You, no one has attained such powers. They are
received only by Your Grace. No one can block them or stop their flow. || 3 || What can the poor helpless creatures do? Your
Praises are overflowing with Your Treasures. Those, unto whom You give.how can they think of any other? O Nanak, the
True One embellishes and exalts. || 4 || 2 || AASAA, FIRST MEHL: Chanting it, I live; forgetting it, I die. It is so difficult to
chant the True Name. If someone feels hunger for the True Name, that hunger shall consume his pain. || 1 || How can I
forget Him, O my mother? True is the Master, True is His Name. || 1 || Pause || Trying to describe even an iota of the
Greatness of the True Name, people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it. Even if everyone were to
gather together and speak of Him, He would not become any greater or any lesser. || 2 || That Lord does not die; there is
no reason to mourn. He continues to give, and His Provisions never run short. This Virtue is His alone; there is no other like
Him. There never has been, and there never will be. || 3 || As Great as You Yourself are, O Lord, so Great are Your Gifts. Ang 9

The One who created the day also created the night. Those who forget their Lord and Master are vile and despicable. O Nanak,
without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. || 4 || 3 || ang 10

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:

Your post if full of contradictions.

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COuld you point out my contradictions?

SAINT SOLDIER said:

hey brother bhagat singh will u plz tell me how is sikh god different from others .guru sahib told every one that god is one:yes: nd ur trying to say that we hav a different god .:inca:

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There is only one God. But we all percieve him differently. Bible has a different perception, Quran has its own perception, etc etc.

tHE BEST ANSWER came from my kiddie student....he is just three and just barely learning the Mool mantar....
His explanation of One "GOD"..yet different GODS....like Allah Jehovah..Christ..Gopal Raam etc etc .......is...
1. Each one of us has ONLY ONE " FATHER".
2. There is only.."FATHER"....
YET each has his own type of FATHER...the one he/she KNOWS BEST....
BUT then again..MY "FATHER" is NOT the same as YOUR "FATHER"....but we BOTH have "FATHER"

Allah/Jehovah/God of Moses..Abraham..Jesus...etc etc etc is "GOD" (FATHER)
But Jehovah is Father/GOD of JEWS..Allah is father/GOD of Muslims..etc etc etc...
BUT the FATHER/GOD of JEWS is NOT THE SAME "FATHER/GOD" of MUSLIMS...HINDUS...

too complicated ?? cant be more simpler than this....if it comes from a 3 year old "GENIUS"

The SGGS discusses/describes..the "FATHER".....as the word applies to ALL....thus ALL FATHERS ARE "ONE and THE SAME..in CONCEPT....but just as Your FATHER is NOT MY FATHER....Allah of Koran..Jehovah of the Torah..and Lord God of the Bible is NOT WAHEGURU.."allah" ram, gopal, Krishan, etc in SGGS...

JsGyani...

”The SGGS discusses/describes..the "FATHER".....as the word applies to ALL....thus ALL FATHERS ARE "ONE and THE SAME..in CONCEPT....but just as Your FATHER is NOT MY FATHER....Allah of Koran..Jehovah of the Torah..and Lord God of the Bible is NOT WAHEGURU.."allah" ram, gopal, Krishan, etc in SGGS...Quote Gyani ji)

With all due respect Gyani ji, worldly fathers can be different but the Father of all is not, just they think He is different, I must add this to your statement. The Father is the same, there are some who know their Father to some level, and there are some others who know Him to another level. As we, in this world, many times do not understand our own father completely, same way, people of different faiths don’t understand the Father completely either. Father of Jesus, Abraham, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc is ACTUALLY the same Father; their description of the Father is as per their understanding of Him. Here in the following, the One father of all is expressed as the same regardless of different explanation of HIM. They may say their father is different, we Sikhs know, they talk about the same Father. It is my humble opinion in context of Gurbani teachings.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=99&punjabi=t&id=3975#l3975
ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੋ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥(SGGS 99)
Gur kahi▫ā sabẖ eko eko avar na ko▫ī ho▫igā jī▫o. ||3||
The Guru has said that He is One-All is the One. There shall never be any other. ||3||
ਮਃ 5
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੮॥੬॥(SGGS 57)
Nānak eko rav rahi▫ā ḏūjā avar na ko▫e. ||8||6||
O Nanak, the One is pervading everywhere; there is no other at all. ||8||6||
ਮਃ 1
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥
Sāhib merā eko hai.
My Lord is but one.
ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਏਕੋ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (SGGS 350)
Ėko hai bẖā▫ī eko hai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He is one alone, O brother. He is one alone. Pause.

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

tHE BEST ANSWER came from my kiddie student....

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what was the question?

BhagatSingh said:

COuld you point out my contradictions?

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You say “ Sikhi says One God and we all belong to the same God,”
This is an Islamic concept. By this statement we separate ourselves from God. We on one side and God on the other. Sikhism says We are all part of God, the same light. This makes us and everything around us GOD in Sargun Saroop.

God is One. If the existence of God is explained to someone in their language with a concept to suit their intellect, it does then mean that God is now different. It is an individual’s perception based on his intellect and history. Moreover the definition is tailored to suit and individuals mental faculty. It is like explaining God is to a small child compared to an adult or an uneducated individual compared to the educated. Let us look at the definition of Sargun and Nirgun.

Sargun = With all attributes of Maya (Visible form – the world around us – in all forms)
Nirgun = Without attributes of Maya (Invisible form)

In Nigun form Divine does not become incomplete. It is just that we do have the ability to see Him whilst living in MAYA but we can feel HIM (Sensory mode). In both forms HE is complete.

Take an example of a Seed. The seed has a large tree hidden inside and the ability to reproduce. It the seed is not sown, all the attributes are hidden. It is still a complete unit. When we sow the seed, it grows into the large tree it was intended to be, bear fruit etc etc and reproduce more seeds. So Divine in Nirgun Saroop in not incomplete. We are incomplete ourselves for not having developed the ability to see beyond.

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:

You say “ Sikhi says One God and we all belong to the same God,”
This is an Islamic concept. By this statement we separate ourselves from God. We on one side and God on the other. Sikhism says We are all part of God, the same light. This makes us and everything around us GOD in Sargun Saroop.

.

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This is not an Islamic concept but also a Sikh one. We are part of God, we all belong to God,He/she is around us and within us - but without God realisation everything is in vane. People walk around with God inside them without realising it, the so called "Manmukhs", and then there are "Gurmukhs" or God willed.

What you have stated is just a play on words, Ekh Musafir, there is nothing wrong with the Bhagat Singh's understanding.

randip singh said:

This is not an Islamic concept but also a Sikh one. We are part of God, we all belong to God,He/she is around us and within us - but without God realisation everything is in vane. People walk around with God inside them without realising it, the so called "Manmukhs", and then there are "Gurmukhs" or God willed.

What you have stated is just a play on words, Ekh Musafir, there is nothing wrong with the Bhagat Singh's understanding.

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Looks like you have run out of ice cream here have another one :ice:. Go and play outside.

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:

You say “ Sikhi says One God and we all belong to the same God,”
This is an Islamic concept. By this statement we separate ourselves from God. We on one side and God on the other. Sikhism says We are all part of God, the same light. This makes us and everything around us GOD in Sargun Saroop.

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I agee with Randip singh ji, you are playing with words.
By your definition whaeguru ji ka khalsa is also an islamic concept because khalsa belongs to god is separating khalsa from God.

God is One. If the existence of God is explained to someone in their language with a concept to suit their intellect, it does then mean that God is now different.

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Ok, I agree and i have mentioned that so this is not a contradiction.

It is an individual’s perception based on his intellect and history. Moreover the definition is tailored to suit and individuals mental faculty. It is like explaining God is to a small child compared to an adult or an uneducated individual compared to the educated.

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exactly.

Let us look at the definition of Sargun and Nirgun.

Sargun = With all attributes of Maya (Visible form – the world around us – in all forms)
Nirgun = Without attributes of Maya (Invisible form)

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Again you play with words! existence is also an attribute of maya (by maya i mean physical things e.g. materials). So nirgun would mean without existence, so God is in existence and not in existence at the same time. Which is very good way of creating unity because anyone could believe God with any attributes (or the lack thereof) and still believe in this nirgun/sargun concept. With this concept we invite all fields of thought together. That was one of the main purposes of Guru Nanak, creating unity.

In Nigun form Divine does not become incomplete.

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again, God has all attributes and no attributes so incomplete is just another one of those attributes.

It is just that we do have the ability to see Him whilst living in MAYA but we can feel HIM (Sensory mode). In both forms HE is complete.

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Sure if that's what you believe.

Take an example of a Seed. The seed has a large tree hidden inside

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(let me play with words now) NO a seed doesnt not have a tree hidden inside. :rofl!!:The tree grows from the cells and nutrients in the seed and fruit. A seed does not compress a large treee into a tiny space.

and the ability to reproduce. It the seed is not sown, all the attributes are hidden.

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what attributes? do you mean the tree is attributes? but the tree grows from a few cells, it is not hidden. The attributes develop overtime.

It is still a complete unit. When we sow the seed, it grows into the large tree it was intended to be, bear fruit etc etc and reproduce more seeds.

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No that is not always the case, it depends on what type of tree it is and sometimes the tree gets a disease and dies, etc.

So Divine in Nirgun Saroop in not incomplete. We are incomplete ourselves for not having developed the ability to see beyond.

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Nirgun means no attributes so in this case, no coompleteness AND no incompleteness. So God is both incomplete, complete and anything in the middle and beyond.

:ice: I have more ice cream in the fridge. Anymore "contradictions"?

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:

tHE BEST ANSWER came from my kiddie student....he is just three and just barely learning the Mool mantar....
His explanation of One "GOD"..yet different GODS....like Allah Jehovah..Christ..Gopal Raam etc etc .......is...
1. Each one of us has ONLY ONE " FATHER".
2. There is only.."FATHER"....
YET each has his own type of FATHER...the one he/she KNOWS BEST....
BUT then again..MY "FATHER" is NOT the same as YOUR "FATHER"....but we BOTH have "FATHER"

Allah/Jehovah/God of Moses..Abraham..Jesus...etc etc etc is "GOD" (FATHER)
But Jehovah is Father/GOD of JEWS..Allah is father/GOD of Muslims..etc etc etc...
BUT the FATHER/GOD of JEWS is NOT THE SAME "FATHER/GOD" of MUSLIMS...HINDUS...

too complicated ?? cant be more simpler than this....if it comes from a 3 year old "GENIUS"

The SGGS discusses/describes..the "FATHER".....as the word applies to ALL....thus ALL FATHERS ARE "ONE and THE SAME..in CONCEPT....but just as Your FATHER is NOT MY FATHER....Allah of Koran..Jehovah of the Torah..and Lord God of the Bible is NOT WAHEGURU.."allah" ram, gopal, Krishan, etc in SGGS...

JsGyani...

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gur fateh jio!
perhaps a simpler way to put this is that yes we all (HINDU SIKH MUSLIM *** ETC)have our GOD / "fathers" we all just refer to him differant such as "POPS", "dad", "PITA JI","Father", "Bapu", "BAAP".

IT IS A MATTER OF PERCEPTION AS TO WHAT WE HOLD AKAAL TO BE. TO ME GOD IS THAT WHICH "IS" "WAS" AND WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE (EXISTS) AAD SUCH,JUGAD SUCH, HA BI SUCH, (NANAK) HOSI BI SUCH. FOR THOSE THAT CLAIM SCIENCE CAN DISPROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD, WELL ITS LIKE GRAVITY, YOU KNOW IT EXISTS, CAN YOU SEE IT? NO! BUT WE KNOW ITS THERE.

"IF YOU AIN'T TASTED SUGAR YOU CAN'T DESCRIBE SWEETNESS"

HUMBLE FATEH JI

Well Aad and Aman ji,

Once more I tried. It is like hitting my head against the wall. You cannot raise ones awareness if it is not in ones Destiny. I do not have time to waste.

"Vishta ka keeda, Vishta mein reha samai"

Randip Singh mandli "Zindabad"

Santa Singh mentality "Zindabad"

Regards

ekmusafir_ajnabi

ekmusafir ji

Please do not hit your head against a wall. The discussion got very technical in the last several posts.