Which Path To Serve?

Under the thread, "Is God a Universal Principle", PK70 ji wrote:

"By the way, this thread is to welcome people not to serve your
own “kind of religion” sermons!!!!"

I don't mind if people share with me their own religion. When
Jehovah's Witness folks knock on my door, I listen to them
respectfully and then politely tell them that I've chosen a
different path. In the end when they leave, we all have
smiles on our faces. What I strongly object to is this:

a) Someone comes on the forum of my faith and tell me
that he knows more about my beliefs than me. He
does this not once, not twice, not thrice but relentlessly
day after day, week after week, month after month,
year after year.

b) He persistently and cunningly invents ways to criticize
everything that is precious and sacred to me - my history,
my values, my ethics, my morals, my way of life.

c) He stubbornly insists that if I don't buy what he is
marketing then

- I lack discerning intellect.
- I'm spiritually blind.
- I've inherited wrong information.
- All the memories from my childhood should be erased because
they represent something false.

d) To top it all off, anytime he is asked to justify his claims and
assertions, he has standard one-liners: "Let us agree to disagree!"
"This is my understanding".

----------------------------

In my book, this kind of behavior is not only bizarre, abnormal and
irresponsible but highly offensive. On Jewish forums, if someone
carried out this kind of propaganda with regards to denying the
Holocaust, it would be more than just offensive. It'd be a criminal
activity under the hate laws and the guy would be behind bars
before long.

c) He stubbornly insists that if I don't buy what he is
marketing then

- I lack discerning intellect.
- I'm spiritually blind.
- I've inherited wrong information.
- All the memories from my childhood should be erased because
they represent something false. (quote Mostique-void Ji)

Attacks on Gurbani have come from all sides, a few years ago, there were leftists who tried to prove Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh inclined towards their philosophy, then came Deras to use and abuse Gurbani, then there are others who feel pride to be called intellectuals and are saying things about Sikhism that are not supported by Gurbani in any way. Their declaration about calling others to lack discerning intellect, to have wrong information and to be spiritually blind is a sheer display of the limited knowledge about SGGS. I have seen writings of these biggest distortors of Gurubani, they are very poor when they quote while propagating their own misconceptions. Such people shouldnt be accepted quietly, actually should be strongly opposed so that their drums shouldnt annoy our ears. Their tendency to create doubts is so obvious that their "wraped up personality" in so called humality, doesnt last long.
As I wrote before, no scholar is so exceptional that we shouldnt question him when facts are made crystal clear by Gurus and other revered contributors of SGGS. Incomplete and faulty translation has caused these guys to jump in and our new generation has no other way to learn directly from Guru, so they are trying to take advantages of this situation. Keep the gaurds on !

Regards
G Singh

pk70 ji and mystique_void ji

I have been thinking off and on about this thread all afternoon -- whllst making dinner, vacuuming the living room, and so forth. So the question really sticks. And I came up with a kind of illustration to describe what goes wrong with the anti-Gurmat approach. Have patience while I tell this story.


Once upon a time 3 men approached the front door of the local gurdwara. The first man was sejhadhari and so when he entered he took off his shoes, put on an orange head scarf, washed his hands and quietly took his place with the other men in front of Guruji.

The second man was keshdhari and naturally he wore a turban. When he entered he took off his shoes and washed his hands and quietly took his place with the other men before Guruji.

The third man was also wearing a turban. When he entered he took off his shoes, washed his hands, and decided to tie an orange scarf on top of his turban. Fortunately, the secretary of the gurdwara committee was standing near the door of the darshan sahib and stopped him. Took him into the hall and asked him what the heck he thought he was doing? "This is something of a spectacle, and everyone who notices you will think you are making mockery of Guruji. Please take off the scarf!" The man refused. He could not be reasoned with. Other men who were standing around -- mostly middle aged men -- gathered nearby. No one wanted to boot this guy out and everyone thought that reason would conquer foolishness. So they began to question him. He always responded that he could back up his decision with verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

You guessed it -- He could come up with at least 5 vaars that he was certain supported his decision.
Here was one of them.ਸਤਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ sathagur kee saevaa gaakharree sir dheejai aap gavaae || It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness. The man insisted that this vaar demonstrated that if you cover your head with 2 covers you have definitely made a sacrifice of your head to Guru ji. You have definitely given up your selfishness, your Haumei. After all, he had 2 head coverings, not one. So that was the truth.

Finally the noise got really loud. The men who gathered round started to shout that Gurbani was being twisted and most of these men were not even "deep thinkers." Just ordinary Singhs. Since the gurdwara at this time was listening to kirtan, the granthi came over to see what the commotion was about. He heard the entire story to the end including the 5 vaars that the man had found. After a few seconds to pause and reflect he responded as follows: ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ asankh nindhak sir karehi bhaar || Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads.

The moral of the story. It is not Gurmat to come up with a theory and then find the vaars that appear to work for you. In fact it can even be nindhya to do this. Start with the shabad and find the lesson for living from the shabad. Shabad is the Guru. The wrong question: How can I back up my thoughts with Gurbani? The question that counts: What lesson is the shabad guru teaching you?:welcome:

Please forgive me.

Under the thread, "Is God a Universal Principle", PK70 ji wrote:

"By the way, this thread is to welcome people not to serve your
own “kind of religion” sermons!!!!"

I don't mind if people share with me their own religion. When
Jehovah's Witness folks knock on my door, I listen to them
respectfully and then politely tell them that I've chosen a
different path. In the end when they leave, we all have
smiles on our faces. What I strongly object to is this:

a) Someone comes on the forum of my faith and tell me
that he knows more about my beliefs than me. He
does this not once, not twice, not thrice but relentlessly
day after day, week after week, month after month,
year after year.

b) He persistently and cunningly invents ways to criticize
everything that is precious and sacred to me - my history,
my values, my ethics, my morals, my way of life.

c) He stubbornly insists that if I don't buy what he is
marketing then

- I lack discerning intellect.
- I'm spiritually blind.
- I've inherited wrong information.
- All the memories from my childhood should be erased because
they represent something false.

d) To top it all off, anytime he is asked to justify his claims and
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24988 (Which Path to Serve?)
assertions, he has standard one-liners: "Let us agree to disagree!"
"This is my understanding".

----------------------------

In my book, this kind of behavior is not only bizarre, abnormal and
irresponsible but highly offensive. On Jewish forums, if someone
carried out this kind of propaganda with regards to denying the
Holocaust, it would be more than just offensive. It'd be a criminal
activity under the hate laws and the guy would be behind bars
before long.

Click to expand...

mystique_void ji

Guru Fateh.

We meet people whom we do not agree with daily whether they are JW's, Mormons, or Sikh Scholars. The best way in my opinion to counter the latter is by showing them what you yourself understand by the Gurbani Shabads they have quoted that in your opinion are not true to our Gurus' message. Only doing like this we can learn and teach others.

This is the reason I have requested you several times in this forum and also in others to give your side of the argument through Gurbani, which surprisingly you have refused to do, the reasons only known to you.

If you pitched in with your Gurmat wisdom, all of us would be able to learn from you including the person/s you may have disagreements with.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Dear Sir,

I regret to say that you have consistently failed to comprehend the
gravity of the situation. As a result, you try to persuade me to become
a part of the ugly ideological/group shenanigans that some individuals
with personal agendas attempt to impose on Sikh forums.

Sir, this is not fun and games. Gurbani is for inspiration and
transformation. Gurbani is not for winning self-serving arguments
and scoring points. If someone doesn't want to use Gurbani
as laser-guided weapons in petty debates and disputes,
their decision should be applauded and not criticized.

I'd rather enjoy and learn from the sabads and keertan
that are posted on this forum than spend my time on
writing long-winded arguments with selective Gurbani lines
that support my position. Is Sangat something where we
share and enjoy Gurbani/Kirtan or is Sangat a place where
we plot and wage ideological warfare by misusing Gurbani?
Please get a grip on reality.

Regards,

mystique_void ji,

Guru Fateh.

My name is not "SIR". My name is Tejwant. So I would like you to address me by my name next time if you do not mind.

I regret to say that you have consistently failed to comprehend the
gravity of the situation. As a result, you try to persuade me to become
a part of the ugly ideological/group shenanigans that some individuals
with personal agendas attempt to impose on Sikh forums.

Click to expand...

Pardon my ignorance but I do not understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate it in lay man's terms?

Sir, this is not fun and games. Gurbani is for inspiration and
transformation. Gurbani is not for winning self-serving arguments
and scoring points. If someone doesn't want to use Gurbani
as laser-guided weapons in petty debates and disputes,
their decision should be applauded and not criticized.

Click to expand...

Once again, I must admit I am not that sharp to grasp what you mean. Can you once again explain this in lay man's terms? Thanks.

I'd rather enjoy and learn from the sabads and keertan
that are posted on this forum than spend my time on
writing long-winded arguments with selective Gurbani lines
that support my position. Is Sangat something where we
share and enjoy Gurbani/Kirtan or is Sangat a place where
we plot and wage ideological warfare by misusing Gurbani?

Click to expand...

I agree with you. I also enjoy Keertan and Shabads. Everytime it happens, I get goose bumps. Sangat is about Shabad Vichaar and Shabad Vichaar can only take place if we share what Gurbani tells us. Sharing is very important in Sikhi.

Once again, my own limitations as a human makes your last sentence incomrehesable. I need your help in its explanation. I would appreciate if you could shed some light on what you mean by "is Sangat a place where we plot and wage ideological warfare by misusing Gurbani?"

Please get a grip on reality.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you mean by the above. You help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

aad0002 said:

Please forgive me.

Click to expand...

Whatever FOR aad ji ??
IMHO..what you wrote is a 110% Spot ON.
People have a THEORY..and then they skim through the SGGS looking for.."AHHH this suits my theory....OH the rest of it doesnt....so leave it aside..and go for the next Tuk...."
This is a sort of reverse engineering of Gurbani....Totally wrong.

What we should do is Find a Shabad..Understand IT..and then try and LIVE it.....and try to persuade others to see why we LIVE that way...through that shabad... Very seldom this happens...simply becasue then WE have to FIT the Shabad..while we LOVE to FIT the shabad to US !!

Thats why we have Clean shavens trying to JUSTIFY their physical state through selective one liners twisted to suit them.....and these types never give up...because they will never accept GURBANi a nd Live accordingly..they wnat Gurbani to suit them.

The moral of the story. It is not Gurmat to come up with a theory and then find the vaars that appear to work for you. In fact it can even be nindhya to do this. Start with the shabad and find the lesson for living from the shabad. Shabad is the Guru. The wrong question: How can I back up my thoughts with Gurbani? The question that counts: What lesson is the shabad guru teaching you(aad002 Ji)

Well said aad Bhain Jio, concise message and the truth about Gurmat. I hope people realize that before interpreting Gurbani to suit them, they should follow what actually Shabada says. Thanks:happy: