Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

How can one ex-communicate Gobind?

Inder singh said:

Kala afghhana is an excommunicated person from sikh panth. People are on record praising him here. I hope we censor those posts also and do not resort to selective censorship.

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Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about.

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir sahib.

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith,they themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.

Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on its teachings.

Tejwant Singh

.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

How can one ex-communicate Gobind?

Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about.

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir sahib.

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith,they themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Let us never forget that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on its teachings.

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Stick to the Topic and Answer the Questions.

The above statement does not make any sense. Inder Singh ji needs to be taught what life of Miri- Piri means. It involves both Temporal and Spiritual. What does personal conduct mean? Is he a bigamist like the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat at Patna Sahib who admittedly has 2 wives. Is that personal conduct ok with Inder Singh ji?

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PLEASE POST LINKS TO VERIFY CLAIMS

What negtative things did he write about Sikh scriptures. Repeating and yelling at the top of one's voice can not make things true. Inder Singh should read what Gyani Jarnail Singh wrote in one of his posts. I know he likes to tell people and told Randip to gain some knowledge. How about gaining knowledge for the self so, so much hatred is not spewed around? I can only see hatred coming out rather than some Gurmat Vichaar

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Raed this. If you need more i can

helphttp://www.sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentinel0306/oped_thegreatdeception.htm


The Great Deception
Randhir Singh "The requirement of Amrit Sanchar (a baptism-like ceremony involving an iron-bowl and with a double-edged sword) to become a true Sikh has discouraged the youth from becoming and staying Sikhs, and thus has encouraged them to become apostate and renegade [1]," writes Gurbax Singh.

It is also his contention that "from the beginning of the fifteenth century to 1850, unshorn hair was the only outward identity of the followers of Nanak. The word 'sehjdhari' is responsible for bringing laxity among the faithfull and it was coined in those days when, along with Sri Guru Granth Sahib, idols of gods and goddesses were also kept in the Gurudwaras by Udassis and Nirmala mahants, by no means friends of Sikhs. Those were the days when 'Gurpratap Suraj' was written and its authors distorted the outlines of Amrit Sanchar." Gurbax Singh views it as "a great folly to recognize Amrit Sanchar as the criterion to be known as Guru's Sikh." [2]
He continues to write that the "adoption of the five kakkars, as proof of Nanak's Sikhi, is the prerogative of the entire panth. It is not acceptable that the Gurus limited this right to five Singhs. This was stipulated by the unworthy leaders who violated the uniqueness of the Panth and controlled its religious teachings and places of worship for 200 years." [3]
On the Rehat Maryada he writes, "The present day Rehat Maryada is not entirely based on Gurbani… Those engaged in drafting it were overwhelmed by clever and far-sighted brahmins who conspired to perpetually influence the Sikh Panth by their brahminical thinking. After all, the Rehat Maryada was written by those Sikhs in 1849, who after losing the empire, did not care to know why they had lost their uniqueness which had once taken them to great heights. What is the use of having the Rehat Maryada when on the death of a well-known person - a powerful jathedar, or a so-called intellectual or a prominent political leader - we rush to Kiratpur Sahib to immerse their remains and observe the fourth, thirteenth, seventeenth day according true to brahminical traditions." [4]
Gurbax Singh also writes in no uncertain words that "the Rehat Maryada, as it exists, offends Gurbani" and thinks it should be discarded and a stop put to formal Amrit Sanchar. [2]

Gurbax Singh is widely known for his knowledge and lucid exposition of Sikh scriptures through words of mouth and print. He refers extensively to the Guru Granth Sahib and, on a subject of his choosing, profusely quotes selective hymns of the Gurus. It has to be said to his credit that he is not miserly in praising and eulogizing the Sikh faith and Gurbani. Surely he pays glowing tributes which gladden every Sikh heart. His portrayal of an ideal Sikh is a perfect picture of virtue and every Sikh is bound to feel proud of it. It is no surprise that he has been successful in attracting a sizeable number of admirers and followers.
He is right on the dot in striking a sympathetic chord among his readers when, for the pitiable position Sikhs find themselves in, squarely blames the leadership. No wrong is committed in criticizing the self-seeking leaders who, bereft of religion and oblivious of selfless service to the community, have betrayed it repeatedly for their immediate material gains, be it money, power or position. It is also true that because of selfish and opportunistic leaders certain distortions have come into Sikh institutions that need immediate and serious attention.
Where does the friction arise?
Gurbax Singh offends by his outright and wholesale condemnation of the established, recognized institutions. He castigates them as a product of the brahmanical mind, having no sanction and authority of Gurbani. He vehemently pleads to abolish them. By doing so, he does not sound sincere and betrays his sinister motives, however elaborate the camouflage may be, however hard he may try to hide behind the screen of Gurbani.
The examples from his writings cited earlier hardly leave any room for doubt that he is bent on maligning and discrediting Sikh institutions and traditions, and to eroding respect and faith in them. Already gross materialism is weaning the youth away from religion and such insidious and subtle propaganda is nothing short of adding insult to injury.
Mesmerized by his familiarity of Gurbani, the casual reader may not readily grasp the intent and subtlety in his writings. A serious and critical reader, however, will notice what lies between the lines. Falsehood left uncontested, if repeated over and over again, over time, begins to look like the truth.
Before Guru Gobind Singh crystallized the social idea of God, Bhai Gurdas, the first theologian of the Sikhs in the days of the fiifth Guru, wrote: "one Sikh is an individual, two make up a community and five constitute God." Guru Gobind Singh crystallized the same concept with the Panj Payaras (five faithful ones) by ceremoniously administering amrit to the Panj Payars and then taking amrit from them himself. The Tenth Guru, therefore, put his own seal on the revolutionary concept of socialized God. Sangat (the Sikh congregation) is held in special esteem and reverence by all Sikhs. Where there is Sangat there is God. This is the belief. How does Sangat act as a group? It does so through the Panj Payaras as its representatives.
Gurbax Singh disputes the historical evidence of the Panj Payaras. He believes that the concept was first adopted in the mid nineteenth century as a result of infiltration of brahmanism. Why should he create such confusion? What are his motives? A little reflection reveals the web.
As a first move the aim, is to get all those who believe in Gurbani and keep outward symbols, but do not undergo Amrit Sanchar, recognized as Sikhs. Once this is achieved the next logical step would be to press for recognition as Sikhs all those who believe in Gurbani but may not keep outward physical symbols. In his writings, Gurbax Singh has often stated: "What use are physical symbols if the mind does not accept these?" With this the transformation would be complete. All Hindus paying even lip service to Gurbani would then, as a matter of right, be classified as Sikhs and become eligible to stake claim in Sikh affairs. From another angle, all Sikhs would be Hindus. The game plan is subtle. The word 'sejahdhari' which, according to Gurbax Singh, was given currency by those opposed to Sikhs, and which irritates him most, would become irrelevant. What a master stroke.
It would be appropriate to touch upon another matter closely connected to maryada which is Anand Karaj. According to Gurbax Singh, the Gurus intended the marriage ceremony to be brief, simple and solemn. He rightly laments that in actual practice this solemn occasion of bonding two families has degenerated into vulgar display of wealth and position. Unfortunate and painful as it is, Sikhs by and large do not enter into matrimonial alliance with a Sikh outside their caste, regardless of his or her merit. The search is limited to the respective castes. Equally deplorable is the fact that the Sikh community continues to follow the same elaborate and expensive customs and rites before and after the marriage as practiced by Hindus.
What then is the point of contention?
Gurbax Singh wastes no words to discredit the maryada of the whole ceremony of Anand Karaj, including the four lavans, and dubs it as misuse of Gurbani amounting to disrespect. [5] His stock thesis and argument is that "codification of the Rehat Maryada, the outcome of brahmanic mind, is the root cause of the whole problem." The sooner the Sikhs defy, reject and disassociate from the Rehat Maryada and Anand Karaj, the better it would be.
Why have such utterances gone unnoticed and unquestioned for so long? Quite simple - he won complete confidence and respect of the community by impressing it with the depth of his knowledge of Gurbani and Sikh scriptures. Having established his credentials, he began firing salvos by selectively criticizing Sikh institutions and eminent personalities.
The community, after the events of the eighties and nineties, was feeling very hurt and humiliated. Gurbux Singh shrewdly made full use of the prevailing mood of discontent and disillusionment and projected himself as a messiah of the community. Encouraged by his success with his readers he started systematically striking blow after blow on the structure of the faith to pull it down brick by brick. Once he swayed the minds of his unsuspecting readers (ironically including some respectable persons) it was easy for him to incite them to defy, to revolt and to overthrow. Soon the band of dedicated followers took over, raised ominous voices, amplified by media, insisting instant restructuring.
It is in the interest of the he Sikh nation that Gurbax Singh discloses who his influences are. He has to answer vital and pertinent questions raised by his destructive preaching against the Rehat Maryada, Amrit Sanchar and Anand Karaj.
He incites Sikhs to disown their institutions and maryada which have become infected - according to him beyond redemption - by brahmanism. What will happen if tomorrow he himself says that Guru Granth Sahib contains many references to brahmin gods and goddesses and their mythologies and were later interpolated by individuals with brahmanic mind and thinking. What solution would he suggest? Discard Guru Granth Sahib or change it? How *******ed and dangerous his whole approach is!
Gurbax Singh has all along been complaining that the Akal Takht has not been responding to his letters. He has been given an opportunity to talk face to face. Why is he not appearing before the Akal Takht? What is he afraid of?
In his writings, Gurbax Singh has been denouncing Jarnail Singh, yet he now claims to be a close associate of his. And on this account, he is afraid of arrest by the Indian government and pleads inability to enter India. What a complete shift and blatant falsehood.
He extols Sikhs to be courageous and ever ready to die for their ideals. What about his Sikhi? Sheer possibility of arrest - which may or may not even happen - has frightened him to climb down from the ideal.
This may not be the real reason. He may be afraid that his falsehood will be exposed or he may not be able to stand the scrutiny by Sikh theologians who are equally well versed in Gurbani.
Gurbani is intended to be the spiritual essence of divine and eternal Truths which have universal appeal and application without the fetters of time, space or race. It is meant to guide mankind through the evolution of its relationship with God, the Ultimate Truth.
On the other hand, there is an equally important need to have a sanctified code of conduct that guides us in living our everyday lives. This document should strengthen and illustrate the practicality of the eternal Truths revealed in Gurbani rather than blur those. It is this composition that is called the Rehat Maryada.
It was left to the genius of Tenth Guru to wield the followers of the Sikh faith into a strong, distinct and vibrant people. Amrit was designed to achieve this. To doubt this historical fact would amount to doubting Guru Gobind Singh himself. Although he may not say so in so many words, the accusing finger of Gurbax Singh is pointing indirectly toward the Tenth Guru, for it was he who conceptualized the Khalsa and the importance of Rehat Maryada. The Guru was emphatic in saying: "Rehat payari mujh ko, Sikh payara nahin."
It is Gurbax Singh's style to first shower superlatives and then in one blow shatter the splendid edifice he just built - reducing in a moment a positive account into a negative one.
Because of ineptness and mismanagement certain distortions have arisen in Sikh institutions and traditions. Lest other hostile and inimical forces take advantage of lack luster Sikh affairs, these controversial issues need to be addressed pragmatically, boldly and urgently. The youth are disenchanted, the tendency toward apostasy is increasing and Sikh youth are cutting their hair and taking to drugs. The tide has to be turned.
In the Gurus' times spiritualism was the first priority and temporal concerns occupied the secondary position. What has happened now is that religion has been given a back seat and politics has become dominant. Serving the community is no longer the driving force. The greed for money, power and position has corrupted and blinded us. No wonder fights for controlling Gurdwaras and institutions is a common occurrence.
This is the opportune time for Sikh intellectuals and theologians of proven integrity and moral strength to get together and deliberate on all the controversial issues agitating the Sikh mind. This has to be done objectively, totally free of passions and party considerations, by consensus. Power seekers, politicians and their supporters should be kept at a distance.
In the ultimate analysis, it is the character of the individual members of the community that will determine the real and lasting strength of the faith. The need of the times is hard introspection by each and all to reform oneself and become a true Sikh dedicated to serve the community, not to control and influence it. Sikhism is a practical religion; let all Sikhs practice and live it in their daily lives.

[1] Page 35, Vol. 6, Bipran Ki Reet
[2] Page 33-35, ibid
[3] Page 33, ibid
[4] Page 31, ibid
[5] Page 38-39, ibid


.Kala afghana is excommunicated from sikh panth. His chelas can follow him if they cann't digest this.

Re: Ardaas Changed

Inder Singh writes in his previous post:

If kala afghana writes on kissa of heer ranjha( A punjabi folk lore) his personal conduct will not come in picture.

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My response:

"The above statement does not make any sense. Inder Singh ji needs to be taught what life of Miri- Piri means. It involves both Temporal and Spiritual. What does personal conduct mean? Is he a bigamist like the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat at Patna Sahib who admittedly has 2 wives. Is that personal conduct ok with Inder Singh ji?"

His response to my above post:

Kala afghana was a convicted thief in India caught stealing engines while posted as police sub inspector at jandial Guru. He was made to jump bail and whicked away to Canada.

In canada he was convicted in a case of morla turpitude. That is the reason moral conduct is very important in sikhism

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Since he chose to write negatively about Sikh scriptures,ethos and history it is natural that his conduct will come in picture for review.

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My question to him regarding the above post was:

"What negative things did he write about Sikh scriptures?"

His response:

"To acknowledge the Amrit of the iron bowl and the double-edged sword, as means to become the Guru's Sikh, is a grave mistake"
Gurbax Singh (aka Kala Afghana), Bipran Ki Reet (Volume 6 - page 35)​

"The requirement of Amrit Sanchar (a baptism-like ceremony involving an iron-bowl and with a double-edged sword) to become a true Sikh has discouraged the youth from becoming and staying Sikhs, and thus has encouraged them to become apostate and renegade [1]," writes Gurbax Singh.

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Inder Singh ji, Please give me the panna number from SGGS.

When one does not have points to discuss in a civilsed manner, one starts making up things. It is like throwing something to the wall and hoping that it sticks. Tsk. Tsk.

Tejwant Singh

Since the events in Finland occurred, in which Ardaas was changed, a renewed interest in the influence of Kala Afghana has surfaced for some members engaged in debate.

Since Kala Afghana is not central to the discussion about the changes in Ardaas in the Finnish sangat, a new thread has been created for purposes of continuing that part of the discussion.

Tejwant wrote

Inder Singh ji, Please give me the panna number from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

When one does not have points to discuss in a civilsed manner, one starts making up things. It is like throwing something to the wall and hoping that it sticks. Tsk. Tsk.

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The cat is out of the bag now.
PERSONAL COMMENT DELETED who says that he is amritdhari and then says there is no amrit sanchar mentioned in SGGS ji.

PERSONAL COMMENT DELETED

Inder singh said:

:

The cat is out of the bag now. This shows you have the mindset as your new found Guru kala afghana.
This also shows that you do not acknowledge Amrit sanchar for a sikh. Here you are a proven hypocrit who says that he is amritdhari and then says there is no amrit sanchar mentioned in SGGS ji.

Shame on your double speak.

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Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you are talking about. You claimed in your post that KA "Since he chose to write negatively about [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh/"]Sikh[/URL] scriptures". When I asked you about that you gave me something from Amrit Sanchar.

You seem confused and your above personal insults show more about yourself than about others. I am not offended by that. And you said you were an Amritdhari. Right? So, is it ok for an Amritdhari Sikh who believes in caste system lance personal insults when he has no points to discuss?

No, I am not thinking aloud. Just asking you a question. I have noticed that you have failed to respond to many of my questions. When you can not respond in a logical and Gurmat manner, you start being abusive.

You write:

The cat is out of the bag now. This shows you have the mindset as your new found Guru kala afghana.

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Inder Singh ji,

One can only deduce 2 things from your above post. Either you can not read or you have lost it. If you had read my posts I have always emphasised just one fact that only SGGS is our GURU. It is a shame that you who claims to be Amritdhari Sikh has to stoop to this low level to ignore the teachings of SGGS.

I am still waiting for the Panna number from SGGS about your claim otherwise it is obvious that you do not like to be truthful.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

No, I am not thinking aloud. Just asking you a question. I have noticed that you have failed to respond to many of my questions. When you can not respond in a logical and Gurmat manner, you start being abusive

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You are asking me the page no of SGGS ji where it written that one should take Amrit. Answer yes or no?.


Inder Singh ji,

One can only deduce 2 things from your above post. Either you can not read or you have lost it. If you had read my posts I have always emphasised just one fact that only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our GURU. It is a shame that you who claims to be Amritdhari Sikh has to stoop to this low level to ignore the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

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Nobody ever denied that.

I am still waiting for the Panna number from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about your claim otherwise it is obvious that you do not like to be truthful

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Are you asking me the page no where it is written to be amritdhari?.

The inner searcher of forums is wondering how to emphasize strongly that debating issues is the route that leads to the best discussion. Please do not, for perhaps the 10th time now and two forum moderators warnings, debate personalities and attribute motivations that are pure speculation on your part. A discussion turns into a rumble during a soccer match otherwise. Thanks aad0002

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Once we talk about a heretic, his personality will come in the picture. You cann't isolate the two. That is what i wrote earlier. sikhism is not a western type religion.

Whose personality are you talking about? I am talking about your insults of VaheguruSeekr ji :welcome:Who is the heretic? This is where you have to watch your step with your answer as per Gurmat. If I could speak to your soul i would do it.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Take a deep breath and read all my posts again. You do not seem to comprehend what you write first and then get more confused when asked questions about it. Take your time and then respond. I had no idea that some people who call themselves Amritdharis yet believe in caste system would have so much venom stored in them against those who disagree with them.

Taking Khandei di Phaul has taken many towards Sehaj as well which is a blessed thing indeed, thanks to Ik Ong Kaar.

So, read all my posts and respond to all the questions I have asked you that you have ignored so we can have a fruitful interaction in the name of Sikhi.

Personal insults demean people who use them especially the ones who call themselves Amritdharis. In fact it demeans the whole Khalsa panth because the Gurmat basket of Amritdharis can not afford to have any bad apples and bad apples are those who use personal insults rather than interacting in a sehaj manner.

Isn't that the ultimate goal of a Sikh especially the one who has taken khandei di pahul?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Aad0002

Plaese see the meaning of heretic. I have not used it out of context.

Tejwant ji

You accept khandey di pahul is essential to for us to become a sikh. That is good to know.

Let us leave to individuals for reaching their goal of realization. We are no one to judge others.

Inder singh said:

Tejwant ji

You accept khandey di pahul is essential to for us to become a sikh. That is good to know.

Let us leave to individuals for reaching their goal of realization. We are no one to judge others.

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Inder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said.

Now, let's hope you adhere to your own words as an Amritdhari and stop with personal insults and judging others which you have done freely so far.

I am eagerly waiting for the answers to my questions that you have refused to respond to. A Sikh, especially the Amritdhari should not shun from the honest responses. Guru Gobind Singh never shunned from anything like that and we have the duty to emulate our 10th Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS BEFORE MOVING ON:

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Inder singh said:

Once we talk about a heretic, his personality will come in the picture. You cann't isolate the two. That is what i wrote earlier. sikhism is not a western type religion.

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Inder Singh Ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please elaborate your above statement by quoting Gurbani from SGGS? You talk in riddles at times which are tough to decipher.

I beg to disagree with your latter statement. Sikhism is NOT a religion but a way of life. Religions, Western or Eastern are based on dogmas where as Guru Nanak founded Sikhism based on pragamatism. So please explain when what you mean by "sikhism is not a western type religion".

And also next time use CAPITAL 'S' for Sikhism. We can not degrade Sikhi by not using the right language.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your silence is deafening to say the least. A Sikh never gets silent when asked questions about Gurmat. I have repeatedly asked you to respond to the questions. I can not understand your reluctance.So please respond to the following from the Gurmat viewpoint:

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

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Excommunication is rooted in sikh tradition and history.Read about excommunication of Ram rai,
Dhirmalias by Guru sahibs.

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

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Guru granth sahib asks for appropriate punishment for a Gurnindak.


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/25205-kala-afghana-discussion-redux.html

3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

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One has to take Gurmantra to become a sikh. A Sikh has to be initiated.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for finally responding but as usual your responses do not make any sense.

Let's try to decipher them a bit.

Your write:

Excommunication is rooted in sikh tradition and history.Read about excommunication of Ram rai, Dhirmalias by Guru sahibs.

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Please share the above in details with us. When one asks the questions, give references with details not just vague responses.

Guru granth sahib asks for appropriate punishment for a Gurnindak

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.

Once again a vague response. Give details from SGGS to prove your point.

One has to take Gurmantra to become a sikh. A Sikh has to be initiated.

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Once again the above response makes no sense. Initiated by whom? So you mean a new born baby in a Gursikh household in NOT a Sikh? Please explain. What is he or she then?

Please be specific in your responses.

Tejwant Singh