Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

Admin note: This thread was created from posts located in another thread Dominance of Rituals in the Sikh Religion. The conversation began to look at reincarnation more than ritual. Thus this thread was created to accommodate the new focus of discussion. Thank you

On my very First visit to Punjab/India after a lapse of nearly 50 years..in November-December 2005..I went to Visit Goindwaal sahib as well as nearby Khadoor sahib, Sultan Pur Lodhi Gurdwaras of the First Three Guru sahibaans in great detail. I had heard of this baoli and its 84 Japji sahib paaths to escape the 84 lakh Joons reincarnations theory.
I wanted to try it out and came well prepared. I too completed the entire 84 paaths/and 84 baths non stop...and it was a truly mind blowing wonderful experience. The fact that i know Japji by memory helped speed up things a bit faster..but the freezing cold winter temps and the wetness..and all is a one time experience well worth it.

I dont subscribe to the notion that merely doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from the reincarnation. Firstly I DONT beleive there are only 84 lakh joons.. more...or less...my understanding is this is just a figure Guru Ji picked up to ILLUSTRATE GURMATT. So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.
GURMATT is that HUMAN BIRTH is a ONE OFF experience...the Creator affords us this one opportunity to do His HUKM and live the Life that will make it possible for US to REUNITE/MERGE with HIM. Period. Human life is a valuable gift..and the ONE Chance to Break the Wall of haumaii..separating us from HIM...and rejoin HIM..forever and forever.
THIS WALL of Haumaii is to be broken by LIVING IN HIS HUKM..following the Directions given to us in the 1429 aangs of Guru Granth Sahib jis GURBANI..and THIS is the ONLY WAY FORWARD. GURBANI has got to be LIVED...ENJOYED...LOVED...Khavoh..Kharcho..Bhuncho..to be EFFECTIVE in changing our daily lives towards HIM.
That said...the Baoli in Goindwaal..and another even bigger one in a Village called dalla made by Guru hargobind Ji ( which I also visited and had a bath - although i avoided the "holy season" there which is Massiah - dark phase of the moon - childless women bathe there to get sons ...and besides bathing..also make "***** of atta"..and there is also a Locked Room there that contains the "soul" of MALARIA FEVER..supposedly caught and locked up to prevent the FEVER from afflicting people ) are HISTORICAL PLACES of our Guurs..and shoudl be visited with HISTORY in mind..NOT the various RITUALS.

BY the way IF..84 baths and 84 japji sahibs are a little too difficult to escape the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations..there is an even EASIER WAY to do that. IN the Goindwaal/Khadoor sahib area...Itself there is another Historical Gurdawra called SANNH SAHIB, in the Basement wall of which there is a MEDIUM SIZED ROUND HOLE (sannh means hole)..and its said that.."ANYONE GOING THROUGH THAT HOLE..escapes the 84 lakh joons....and there is a long line of people queing up to do just that...go through..and escape JOONS !! Could anything be EASIER..NO WAY..its simplest way !!
BTW..I went through the hole too...just in case !! (insurance)..but be careful...the hole is just MEDIUM...really fat will get stuck (limbo !!)..lucky me..my belly wasnt that big..way back in 2005..i scraped through by the skin of my teeth...

Now to the story behind Sannh sahib.
The youngest son of Guru Angad Dev named Dasu, kicked Guru Amar Dass off his throne and asked him to leave Goindwal. Guru Amar Dass left Goindwal for Basarke and reaching there shut himself inside a house for quiet meditation. On the door he wrote," Whosoever opens the lock of this door, I will not own him as my follower." Baba Budha broke open the house from the back side, without touching the lock on the front door, fulfilled the command of the Guru in letter, if not in spirit. Thus he was able to see the Guru, who overwhelmed with his devotion, accompanied the Sikhs to Goindwal. The Gurdwara Sannh Sahib stands on that place. :happy:

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

<<So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.>>

Gyani ji

can you please elaborate on that.

Guru ji in SGGS have stated about various joons in very elaborate way.

what were they talking about?

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji
i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji
i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of SGGS) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of SGGS) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
You write " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. "

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
You write " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. "

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Here is the Lekh in Punjabi from Sikh marg website. My rather inadequate English translation is attached - please bear with the inadequacies but the central idea is there.
ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ?"
ਉੱਤਰ: ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਠੀਕ ਅਰਥ ਭਾਵ ਸਮਝਣ ਲਈ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇੱਕ ਦੋ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਲੈਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਲਈ ਜਿਹੜੀਆਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਬੁਨਿਆਦੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇੱਕ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ, ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਜਾਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਨੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰਦਿਆਂ ਹੋਇਆਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਕਰਵਾਈ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਉਹ ਕਿਸ ਧਰਮ ਨਾਲ ਸਬੰਧ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਸਨ, ਜਾਣਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। ਚੂੰਕਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਜਾਚ ਅਸਾਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਸਮਝਾਈ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਸੀ। ਮਿਸਾਲ ਦੇ ਤੌਰ `ਤੇ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਪਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸਲਾਮਿਕ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਵਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ; ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਮਝਾ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ ਉਹ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਸਨ। ਇਹੀ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਧਰਮਰਾਜ, ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰ ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਈ ਹੋਈ। ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੇਵਲ ਇੱਕ ਉਦਾਹਰਣ ਹੀ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ:- ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕੂਕੇਦਿਆ ਚਾਂਗੇਦਿਆ ਮਤੀ ਦੇਦਿਆ ਨਿਤ ॥ ਜੋ ਸੈਤਾਨਿ ਵੰਞਾਇਆ ਸੇ ਕਿਤ ਫੇਰਹਿ ਚਿਤ ॥੧੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1378}
ਸ਼ਲੋਕ ਵਿੱਚ ਫਰੀਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਸਲਾਮੀ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਬਦੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਕ ਆਖ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦੇ ਪੈਰੋਕਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਪੈਰੋਕਾਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਇਹ ਸਮਝਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕਿ, "ਕੂੜ ਨਿਖੁਟੇ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਓੜਕਿ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੀ"॥ ਤਾਂ ਅਜ਼ਰਾਇਲ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਦੇ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਵਹੀ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ ਬੈਠੇ ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ:- "ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਸਿਖ ਸਹੀ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਰਬੁ ਮੰਗੇਸੀਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਕਢਿ ਵਹੀ ॥ ਤਲਬਾ ਪਉਸਨਿ ਆਕੀਆ ਬਾਕੀ ਜਿਨਾ ਰਹੀ ॥ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਆਇ ਤਈ" ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953}
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਜਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਜਾਚ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਸਮੇਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਪੁਰਾਣਕ ਸਾਖੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਹਵਾਲਾ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਜਿਵੇਂ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਦਰਸਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕਿ, "ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥" ਤਾਂ ਫ਼ਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ:-
ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ॥ ਪਰਸ ਰਾਮੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਅਜੈ ਸੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਐਸੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਲੰਕ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਆਦੀ ਡਉਰੂ ਵਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਜਨਮੇਜਾ ਖੁਇ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਪੀ ਭਇਆ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953-954}
ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਜੋਗੀਆਂ, ਸਰੇਵੜਿਆਂ, ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਸਮੇਂ ਇਹੀ ਢੰਗ ਅਪਣਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਚੂੰਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਧਰਮ ਨਾਲ, ਕੋਈ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਨਾਲ, ਕੋਈ ਜੋਗ ਮਤ ਆਦਿ ਨਾਲ ਸਬੰਧ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸਿੱਖ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਇਸ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਣੇ ਸਨ।) ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਵੀ ਨੋਟ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ, ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਭਾਂਵੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਇੱਕ ਫ਼ਿਰਕੇ ਦੇ ਧਾਰਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ, ਪਰ ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਜੋ ਸੱਚ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਕਰਵਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਮਨੁੱਖਤਾ ਲਈ ਹੈ। (ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ।)
"ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ" ॥ ਵਾਲਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਗਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਣ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਪੂਰਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੈ: -
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 526}
ਭਗਤ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਗੱਲ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਰਹਾਉ ਵਾਲੀ ਪੰਗਤੀ `ਚ ਹੈ ਕਿ, "ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ" ॥ ਇਹ ਸੁਨੇਹਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹ ਪੁਰਾਣਾਂ ਸ਼ਾਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਸਨ। ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਣ ਬਾਰੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਭਾਈਚਾਰੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੋ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਸੀ, ਭਗਤ ਜੀ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਹਵਾਲਾ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਸਮਝਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ, "ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਧਨ, ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ, ਪੁੱਤਰ , ਤੇ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਦੇ ਧੰਧਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਇਤਨਾ ਖਚਿਤ ਨਾਹ ਰਹੋ ਕਿ ਮਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਟਿਕੀ ਰਹੇ। ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ-ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਜ਼ਿੰਮੇਵਾਰੀਆਂ ਇਸ ਤਰੀਕੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਿਭਾਓ ਕਿ ਕਿਰਤ-ਕਾਰ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਭੀ "ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ" ; ਤਾਂਕਿ ਅੰਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਵੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧਨ , ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ , ਪੁੱਤਰ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਣ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੀ ਰਹੇ । ਸੋ, ਭਗਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਜੀ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਜਨਤਾ ਵਿਚ ਚੱਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਖ਼ਿਆਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਸਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਰਸਤਾ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ, ਨਾ ਕਿ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੈਣ ਬਾਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਤ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ।" (ਹੋਰ ਵਿਸਥਾਤ ਸਹਿਤ ਦੇਖੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਦਰਪਣ: ਪ੍ਰੋ: ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ)
ਸੋ, ਸੰਖੇਪ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹੀ ਆਖਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਰਣਨ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਮਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੋਰ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਪੁਰਾਣਕ ਹਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਕਰ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਖ਼ਿਆਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਹੋਇਆਂ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਹੀ ਰਸਤਾ ਦਰਸਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।
ਨੋਟ: ਕਈ ਸੱਜਣ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋ ਭਾਵ, ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਹੋਣ `ਤੇ, ਇਸੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਪਸ਼ੂਪੁਣੇ ਦੇ ਤਲ ਉੱਤੇ ਜਿਊਂਣ ਤੋਂ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਹੁਤ ਥਾਂਈ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਵਰਣਨ ਹੈ, ਪਰੰਤੂ ਇਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਵਾਲਾ ਭਾਵ ਢੁਕਵਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ; ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਸੱਚ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਦੀ ਮੌਤ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਲੈਂਦੇ।
The writers of Gurbani have used examples from their desired audience. IF its Sheikh farid Ji for example, you will NOT find any references to Dharam raaj,Dasam Duar etc etc simply because farid Ji is brought up in an Islamic environment and his intended audience is the Muslims. Thus you find references to Shaitan as the forebearer of EVIL in his bani..but shaitan is not mentioned by the Bhagts simply becasue they are Hindu based.
Thus when Guur nanak ji addresses His Muslim audience..he talks about the Archangel farishtas and abraham adam etc..and when Guru nanak Ji is in Hardwaar adressign Hindus..He uses shansar, Ajay Parasram...RamChander ,seeta and all those examples from HINDU Mythology/religious traditions.
Same technique used in "conversations" with the Yogis..the Naaths..the Sidhs..and everyone else..BUT and now here is the Main Thrust of GURBANI. Since Guru nanak Ji came on Earth to teach GURMATT..( and NOT islam or sidhs, or naaths, or Hinduism vedas etc )..the Rahao Tuks that AFFIRM the Teachings of Gurmatt are all clear.
In the Lachhmee shabad given by Amandeep singh ji..the RAHAO Tuk by Bhagat ji..reiterates so strongly...ARE BAII GOBIND NAAM MATT BEESREH..OH Brother DONT FORGET GOBIND NAAM !!
Meaning of shabad comes so clear...Dont be so ENGROSSED in houses, wealth, wife, family..etc etc that you become so totally ENGROSSED that even on the DEATH BED..all you can ever think about is..oh my money..oh my son..my wife..my house..whats going to happen after i am dead..who will take care of my bank accounts..who will stay in my house..who will remarry my wife ?? etc etc and DIE in THAT STATE OF MIND ??
People always say..SO whats the BOTTOM LINE !! everything that goes on..can be accepted..BUT the Most Important thing is the BOTTOM LINE !! One can read a thousand page Legal document..it amounts to NOTHING..unless one SIGNS on the Bottom Line...and Once the signature is there..NO amount of saying..i never read it all..oh i missed that para..oh i didnt understand that part..wont hold any water !! SAME here. The BOTTOM LINE in all the 1429 pages of SGGS is NAAM..GURMATT REHNNI..and THIS human LIFE !! As they say..a Thousand Metre long rope..and KNOT at the END is all that matters..if the KNOT becomes UNDONE..the entire rope UNRAVELS..
Bhagat tarlochan Ji is giving an EXAMPLE from prevailing Hindu thought/myth to ILLUSTRATE and this is no means an admission by Bhgat ji that its all true.and a lover of wealth will become a snake..at the Rate Snakes are disappearing from this earth ( many snakes are on PROTECTED LISTS to protect them from EXTINCTION)..and the rate at which GREEDY MEN are INCREASING...the "shabad" will have to be revised..??? and we all KNOW that GURBANI is ETERNAL TRUTH !! ( btw although the generic word used is "snake"..in actual fact what they show is the Highly POISNOUS COBRA SNAKE as always coiled around "wealth"..simply because the Cobra is most widely known in HINDU INDIA...and Cobras are soon set to be extinct..so what will the aant kaal lachmme simrehs become ?? anacondas or rattlesnakes ??
My profound apologies to all non Punajbi reading posters. The brief summary is a stop gap measure - a properly written essay with english refrences to all tuks quoted is being prepared.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still ) . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Narayanjot Kaur said:

dalbirk ji

Thank you because this is a wonderful insight into the mind of our Guru. Do you think what happened is that over time the first message was forgotten and people got carried away with the practice for its own sake. Took the observance literally and forgot the point that was originally intended.

Click to expand...

Narayanjot Ji ,
The politics of India is such that if there are no differences , then differences are created . In India in each of your Government document , caste is still mentioned , similarly the reservations, benifits based on castes are keeping this alive . Though reservations have helped rest of India in raising status of so called low castes , it has damaged the ( general ) social fabric of Punjab wherein caste based differences were not that stark say about 40-50 years ago . Add to it the hidden motive of Brahmins & other high castes in keeping castism alive , the increasing influence Hindu media & Brahminical rituals in Sikhism as a whole all these factors have contributed in keeping castism alive & kicking in Punjab ( & Sikhs ) & it is growing by the day .

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Guru Piayrio Jios,

GURBANI is agaadh Bodh...meaning DIVINEWISDOM..and its full and complete understanding can only come with Guru jis Kirpa and Gur Parsaad.
Its OUR own INADEQUACIES and LIMITATIONS that STOP us from reaching a fuller and complete understanding of Guru jis divine Message.
Just have alook at the followign panktees and concepts explained and the TECHNIQUE USED to ILLUSTRATE.

1. Hindu Religious Thoughts and Vedas religious texts have stated that there are ONLY FOUR KHANNEES..meaning four methods of propogation of LIFE.
These four khannees are..Andej - EGgs - birds snakes crocodiles etc, JERAJ..from the WOMB..humans, cows, tigers etc, SETAJ - from the sweat - bacteria etc..and UTBHUJ - from mixture of water and earth..worms bugs etc. When Guru Ji talks to a largely HINDU auduence brought up on this line of thought..He says..
Japji sahib Page 6 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ..Gaveh Jodh mahabal soora..gaveh khanne chareh...ALL SING His Praises..warriors, lords, fighters, ALL those born of the FOUR KHANNEES !!
BUT when Guru Ji wants to give us HIS DIVINE MESSAGE..He declares..ਕੇਤੀਆ ਖਾਣੀ ਕੇਤੀਆ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੇਤੇ ਪਾਤ ਨਰਿੰਦ॥COUNTLESS KHANNEES..COUNTLESS Languages..voices..
Page 276: ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਅਰੁ ਖੰਡ॥ COUNTLESS Khanees and Universes !!
What happened to the LIMITED "FOUR KHANNEES" earlier ?? its obvious that Guru ji was just using that as an example that audience was familair with...and ITS NOT the INFALLIBLE TRUTH according to Guru ji.

2.Another example. ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ॥ ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇੱਕ ਵਾਤ॥ In the Vedas it is stated that there are LAKHS of Pataals and Lakhs of akash..regions and nether regions...the VEDAS are one united Voice on this. The japji sahib Pauree 22 onwards..
Then Guur Ji tackles the Biblical religious Thoughts and Traditions..ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ॥ The Biblical books say there are 18000 regiosn and Nether regions..and they ALL spring forth from the One Creator !!
So Here we have TWO different View points..one Hindu, the other Western..and BOTH DIFFER !!
BUT WHAT THEN IS GURMATT ?? the GURUS VIEWPOINT ?? Here it is..in crystal clear words that leave no room for any doubt.. ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ॥ IF His Creation could be COUNTED...?? NO JIOS..the FIGURES will FINISH and those attempting to count..will be themsleves...destroyed..before even rudimentary counting can begin...NANAK DECLARES..

HE is the CREATOR..ONLY HE KNOWS his CREATION. PERIOD.

SO IF any one of us were to STOP at the Four Khannees..the Lakh Pataals...or the 18000 Regions worlds universes...would we be doing JUSTICE to the DIVINE MESSAGE that gurbani puts forward. Is that the "Gurmatt" view simply becasue we ourselves stopped half way and never reached the BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSIONS of GURU JI. ??? whose fault is that ??

NEXT the JOONS FIGURES. the wise ones would alreday know where we are heading...its a question of the CREATOR and HIS CREATION..so what "value" have LIMITED FIGURES ?? RIGHT JIOS..LIMITED FIGURES HAVE NO VALUE...in the Creators Creation..its all LIMITLESS...ENDLESS...

Bhai kahn Singh nabha: Vedas say that...ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮਤ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਚੀਨ ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ: ਨੌ ਲੱਖ ਜਲਵਾਸੀ, ਦਸ ਲੱਖ ਪੌਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਡਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪੰਛੀ, ਬੀਸ ਲੱਖ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਬਿਰਛ ਆਦਿ, ਗਿਆਰਾਂ ਲੱਖ ਪੇਟ ਬਲ ਚਲਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਰਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਮਿ ਆਦਿ, ਤੀਸ ਲੱਖ ਚੌਪਾਏ ਅਤੇ ਚਾਰ ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ ਹਨ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਾਂਦਰ ਬਨਮਾਨੁਖ ਆਦਿ ਸਭ ਸ਼ਾਮਿਲ ਹਨ। ... 9 Lakh are in the Oceans, 10 lakhs are in the SKIES, 20 Lkahs are trees, bushes, rocks etc, 11lakhs are snakes worms etc, 30 lakhs are four legged animals, 4 lakhs are Humanoids, chimps, gorillas monkeys etc.
According to the JAIN TEXTS:
ਜੈਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ ਇਉਂ ਮੰਨੀ ਹੈ: 7 ਲੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਿਵੀ ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਪੌਣ ਵਿਚ, 7 ਲੱਖ ਅਗਨਿ ਵਿਚ, 10 ਲੱਖ ਕੰਦ (ਗਾਜਰ ਮੂਲੀ ਆਦਿ) ਵਿਚ, 14 ਲੱਖ ਝਾੜੀ ਬਿਰਛ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ, 2 ਲੱਖ ਦੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ ਅਤੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 2 ਲੱਖ ਤਿੰਨ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ ਮੁਖ ਅਤੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਰਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 2 ਲੱਖ ਚਾਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ, ਅਰਥਾਤ ਜੋ ਤੁਚਾ, ਮੁਖ, ਨੱਕ ਅਤੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਰਖਦੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਦੇਵਤਾ, ਜੋ ਸੁਰਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਨਰਕ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ, 14 ਲੱਖ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ, ਜੋ ਇੱਕ ਟੰਗੀਏ ਅਤੇ ਦੁਟੰਗੇ ਹਨ, 4 ਲੱਖ ਚੌਪਾਏ ਪਸ਼ੂ।”
7 Lkahs on earth, 7 Lkahs in water, 7 lakhs in FIRE, 10 lakh as root veges carrots radishes etc, 14 lakh trees, bushes etc, 2 lakhs with two sensory organs - mouth and ****, 2 lakhs with three organs mouth, **** and eyes, 2 lakhs with 4 sensory organs - mouth, ****, eyes and nose,4 lakh DEVTAS in HEAVEN, 4 lakh In HELL shaitans, bhoots prets ghosts etc, 14 lakh humanoids - 1 legged and 2 legged..and 4 lakh four legged animals.
4. Some Granths mention an even distribution..42 lakhs in WATER and 42 lakhs on EARTH. (Sky is not mentioned)
BHAGAT NAMDEV JIS shabad is always quoted to PROVE THIS !! The shabad is..
Page:485 ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ ਭਰਾਈਲੇ ਊਦਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਉ॥ ਬਇਆਲੀਸ ਲਖ ਜੀ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਤੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ॥ IF I were to bring so called pure water from the OCEAN/RIVER to bathe the moortee....the QUESTION is this...already 42 lakhs of JOONS live in the water...and the CREATOR is in Each one of those creatures....so ISNT IT RIGHT THAT the CREATOR is ALREADY BATHING..long beofre i can bring the water out ?? AND isnt it also TRUE that sicne the 42 lakhs are living in the water..its NO LONGER "PURE"..its polluted with the 42 lakhs !! Environmentalists and scientists tell us that the so called HOLY GANGA JAL is highly polluted with billions of disease bearing bacteria, viruses and even RAW SEWAGE. BHAGAT NAMDEV JI apprised us all of this TRUTH 700 years ago...BUT we FAIL to see his DIVINE MESSAGE..because we are SUNK in the Ginnttee minntee of 42 lakh joons and all...we "see" the SUPERFICIAL MASK..and fail to see the FACE of TRUTH behind the mask !!
Bhagat ji couldnt care two hoots whether there were 42 lakhs or 33 kror joons..his MESSAGE is about the so called PURITY of the water..and the RITUAL of bathing the statues of Mandirs to PURIFY THEM. Bhagt ji is QUESTIONIG THAT FALSE BELIEF.

6. On page 1156 Guru Ji is giving his views on the BEANTATA..UNLIMITEDNESS of the CREATOR..ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ॥ 1॥ ਐਸੋ ਧਣੀ ਗੁਵਿੰਦੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ॥ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ॥ 1॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸੇਵਕਾਇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਿਹਜਾਇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਜਨਾ ਤੇਰੈ ਅੰਗਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਭਗਤ ਬਸਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ॥ 2॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਠਾਢੇ ਹੈ ਦੁਆਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਮਾਹਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ॥ 3॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਰੀਅਤ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਾਦ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਖਾਰੇ ਚਲਿਤ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਧਾਰ॥ 4॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਝਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਤ ਨਾਮ ਚਾਰ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ॥ 5॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੰਸ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਰਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਸ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਣੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ॥ 6॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਥਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਧਰਤ ਧਿਆਨੁ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਤਪ ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮੁਨੀਸਰ ਮ+ਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤੇ॥ 7॥ ਅਵਿਗਤ ਨਾਥੁ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ॥ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਾਸਾ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ॥ 8॥ (ਪੰਨਾ 1156)
GURU JI is certainly NOT LIMITING the CREATOR in nay bandhans..His CREATION is BOUNDLESS...even in SUKHMANI SAHIB, the Word used is KOT..and adding the adjective Kaee in front of KOT (KRORS) makes the KRORS UNCOUNTABLE...
The CREATOR has created ( and also destroyed)..countless shivs, Brahms. Vsihnus, Universes, galaxies, life forms, joons, Bhagts, lachmis, devtas..
IN Conclusion i would like t point out that all such mentions of PURANIC myths, legends, figures of worlds and joons, reincarnations, avatrs, brahmas, vushnus, etc etc and also thsoie examples from the Biblical books kitabs etc are ALL ILLUSTRATIONS.ਸੋ, ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਈ ਥਾਈਂ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਵਰਣਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਪਰੰਤੂ ਇਸ ਵਰਣਨ ਤੋਂ ਇਹ ਹਰਗ਼ਿਜ਼ ਭਾਵ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਜੂਨੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਤ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੀ ਸਹਿਮਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ। ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਨੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਰੇ ਇਹ ਰਾਏ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਇਤਨੀ ਕੁ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਮਿਣਤੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ। GURU JI DOES NOT LIMIT the CREATOR in any way whatsoever. He is TRULY bEYOND everything we can say...
I am heavily indebted to SIKH MARG.COM for spreading tatt gurmatt and the correct interpretations of Gurbani. Please excuse all errors and omissions as mine. The SGGS pages are provided - please go to the relvant Sikhitothe max.com site or other Gurbani sites for the English Translations.Time constraints prevent me.and i can only provide brief summary of shabads as per my own understanding.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

dalbirk said:

IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still ) . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .

Click to expand...

Dalbir Singh ji, Gurfateh ji.

BEAUTIFULLY PUT. THANK YOU.
Completely in line with GURMATT.:happy:

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975

Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.

BUT this does not mean that Gurbani rejects reincarnation. If you are saying that sikhmarg is promoting this view than I say that sikhmarg is wrong.

I recommed sikhmarg writer to leave his householders life and run off to some hills away from the temptations of maya moh and start doing samadhi prompto as for him there is only one human life.

Human life, gurbani has made very clear is very difficult to get. Get from where??

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

dalbirk said:

IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still ) . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .

Click to expand...

Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting perspective, Thanks.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth regarding 84 lakh joons and reincarnation. Our Gurus talked in the language of the people who believed in different things depending on their beliefs, hence first and foremost they acknowledged their practices and rituals. Aarti, fasting, Hajj, Pilgrimages, 84 joons and reincarnation are a few examples.

After having acknowledged what the people practiced in their beliefs, our Gurus showed them what these things really mean and how they should be practiced. SGGS is full of these examples.

Now, coming back to 84 Lakh joons and reincarnation, after having acknowledged the said beliefs, our Gurus also mentioned in every Shabad regarding these 2 beliefs,that once a person who follows the Sikhi path, then he/she is liberated from these beliefs. In other words, studying and understanding Gurbani develops a mindset of pragmatism which helps us get rid of these kinds of beliefs which are meaningless.

We should remind ourselves as often as possible that beliefs can change anytime because all beliefs are based on subjective truths where as Sikhi is based on the objective truth. Mool Manter and the first pauri of Jap ji show us that. That is why I do not call Sikhi marg a belief system but a way of life or a lifestyle which shows that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one.


Tejwant Singh

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

kaur-1 said:

re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975

Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.

BUT this does not mean that Gurbani rejects reincarnation. If you are saying that sikhmarg is promoting this view than I say that sikhmarg is wrong.

I recommed sikhmarg writer to leave his householders life and run off to some hills away from the temptations of maya moh and start doing samadhi prompto as for him there is only one human life.

Human life, gurbani has made very clear is very difficult to get. Get from where??

Click to expand...

BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB.."ran" all the way UP the Himalayas to TEACH the "samadhi entangled" sadhus/naaths.sidhs/Yogis that they are WRONG..and they should COME BACK DOWN..marry and have kids..and live like HOUSEHOLDERS.
YES we do have only...Gobind milan ee EH(u) teri barreah...and Gurmatt says a HOUSEHOLDERS LIFE is the BEST. Thats why ALL our Gurus married and lived a householders life.
RUNNING AWAY is the Cowards way out...a GURSIKH lives in the MAYA..and FIGHTS temptations...a LOTUS in the muddy POND.:happy:

Human as Sikdaree: Support for the Concept of Reincarnation?

Gyani ji

i think you missed the meaning of the remark completely

it was a sarcastic advice.

Re: Dominance of Rituals in Sikh Religion

Huck_Finn said:

if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?

Click to expand...

Huck ji,
I CANNOT answer that..per se..
BUT
Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.
And secondly Gurbani also states that EVEN the DEMI-GODS..need and SEEK a HUMAN BODY....reason being that only in HUMAN FORM can MUKTEE be realised- Merger with the Creator.

Can you imagine a EARTH with ONLY HUMANS..and NOTHING ELSE !! what "food"..what clothes..what development..what evolution ?? NO vege to eat..no trees for wood..no animals to hunt.. wouldnt humans be cannibals of necessity ?? would then humans be "farming" lesser humans for food ??GOSH..what a thought