S|kH
SPNer
Time to a set up a thread about the highly controversial "Meat" topic.
Please discuss.
Please discuss.
Meat - Is It Against Sikhi?
- Thread starter S|kH
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S|kH
SPNer
My Views
Is Meat Against Sikhi?
Although, I have no problems with vegetarians or meat-eaters, I have come to the conclusion that the ritual of eating meat / or refraining from meat is no way connected to spirituality.
Guru Nanak stated it, that the fools argue over meat.
Guru Gobind hunted meat, whether he ate it or not is up to debate, but yes, he did kill it, yes he did seek it out, yes he did hunt it.
Some people are happy that they can refrain from eating meat, and feel as if its more religious, something that makes them "better"
This is nonsense. If you choose not to eat meat, so be it, all the best of luck to you, but dont eat meat because you think harming animals is wrong. Do not do it because you think you will reach another level of spirituality.
If you choose to eat meat, so be it, dont eat it because you think the Sikhs from back in the day did it, and its tradition that must be followed and if you follow them step by step, you will be higher spiritually.
All nonsense, the Guru made no distinct position on meat at all.
Some may argue from the above that "Kesh" can be seen the same way, that some people feel more spiritual keeping kesh then others, and its a thing that is needed. Let me remind you, Kesh is sacred to the Khalsa, and the Guru took a firm position on what the Khalsa should be and what it meant. Therefore, that is easily refuted.
Anyways, please continue to discuss, and if you have solid proof, provide it.
And please, do not leave responses like "AKJ or such and such Jatha told us not to" or "Bhindranwale condemned meat" and etc.
Logic, and Reason and Gurbani quotes please
Is Meat Against Sikhi?
Although, I have no problems with vegetarians or meat-eaters, I have come to the conclusion that the ritual of eating meat / or refraining from meat is no way connected to spirituality.
Guru Nanak stated it, that the fools argue over meat.
Guru Gobind hunted meat, whether he ate it or not is up to debate, but yes, he did kill it, yes he did seek it out, yes he did hunt it.
Some people are happy that they can refrain from eating meat, and feel as if its more religious, something that makes them "better"
This is nonsense. If you choose not to eat meat, so be it, all the best of luck to you, but dont eat meat because you think harming animals is wrong. Do not do it because you think you will reach another level of spirituality.
If you choose to eat meat, so be it, dont eat it because you think the Sikhs from back in the day did it, and its tradition that must be followed and if you follow them step by step, you will be higher spiritually.
All nonsense, the Guru made no distinct position on meat at all.
Some may argue from the above that "Kesh" can be seen the same way, that some people feel more spiritual keeping kesh then others, and its a thing that is needed. Let me remind you, Kesh is sacred to the Khalsa, and the Guru took a firm position on what the Khalsa should be and what it meant. Therefore, that is easily refuted.
Anyways, please continue to discuss, and if you have solid proof, provide it.
And please, do not leave responses like "AKJ or such and such Jatha told us not to" or "Bhindranwale condemned meat" and etc.
Logic, and Reason and Gurbani quotes please
S|kH
SPNer
ThinkingOne said:
Hmm, what is meat..
I dont know :x
What do you think it is?
That was exactly my reason of asking this question.
I saw at www.dictionary.com and the meanings matching your query were as follows:
1. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry.
2. The edible part, as of a piece of fruit or a nut.
Extend the awareness, omnipresence, feelings into each and every particle in this universe, that way you will find that we ALL end up killing some or other one for our survival.
If we limit the meaning of meat to first definition only, that is due to our sensitivity level. Heard of monks, who cover their mouth, so that jeev in air dont get killed while speaking!!! Just different levels of perception and sensitivity.
Personally, anything offered on my plate to eat, I should eat.
I saw at www.dictionary.com and the meanings matching your query were as follows:
1. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry.
2. The edible part, as of a piece of fruit or a nut.
Extend the awareness, omnipresence, feelings into each and every particle in this universe, that way you will find that we ALL end up killing some or other one for our survival.
If we limit the meaning of meat to first definition only, that is due to our sensitivity level. Heard of monks, who cover their mouth, so that jeev in air dont get killed while speaking!!! Just different levels of perception and sensitivity.
Personally, anything offered on my plate to eat, I should eat.
Dear members,
Whenever we eat we terminate some form of life either in plant kingdom or in animal kingdom. One must eat which your conscience permits and which agree with you body constitution. Taking from nature more than what one needs (over eating) or wasting food is a sin because then one is damaging the nature more then what one needs to live a healthy life.
What to eat or not to eat is not a matter to be decided by religion. I agree with the view that it has nothing to do with spirituality.
Sikhs can eat meat if they want.
With love and respect for all.
Amarpal
Whenever we eat we terminate some form of life either in plant kingdom or in animal kingdom. One must eat which your conscience permits and which agree with you body constitution. Taking from nature more than what one needs (over eating) or wasting food is a sin because then one is damaging the nature more then what one needs to live a healthy life.
What to eat or not to eat is not a matter to be decided by religion. I agree with the view that it has nothing to do with spirituality.
Sikhs can eat meat if they want.
With love and respect for all.
Amarpal
'Sikhs can eat meat if they want.' - I wont say that with an authority.
Considering - you are what you eat! Perhaps, it is observed that people intaking meat from animal kingdom are more prone to more heart diseases, agression etc. On the other side, people intaking from plant kingdom exhibit calm and quiet outlook. I may be wrong though. I do agree about things going wrong when any of these things take place i.e. over-eating, wasting food, killing just for pleasure!
Considering - you are what you eat! Perhaps, it is observed that people intaking meat from animal kingdom are more prone to more heart diseases, agression etc. On the other side, people intaking from plant kingdom exhibit calm and quiet outlook. I may be wrong though. I do agree about things going wrong when any of these things take place i.e. over-eating, wasting food, killing just for pleasure!
truth_seeker
SPNer
Animals have emotions and often they are scared during their last minutes, which means that you consume their stress hormones too.
I see that it is impossible to not live off other live, but I try to live off live causing the least amount of pain and suffering
I see that it is impossible to not live off other live, but I try to live off live causing the least amount of pain and suffering
Dear Members,I hold the opinion that there is nothing wrong in eating what is edible and in accepted by your constitution of the body.
No body in this world is perfect vegetarian. The first nurishment which every one gets after birth, in strict sense of the term, is non-vegetarian - the mother's milk. The curds that people eat have live becteria multiplying in it. Honey too is non-vegetarian and is snatched from poor helpless bees, as cows milk is snatched from the calf, who are the rightful owner of it. i do not know if the vegetarians are not sinners.
When I have the option, I too take vegetarian food, this is because the life has not yet manifested in it. For me egg and grain both are same, they have suspended life in it and has manifested yet. when I do not have the option I have no hesitation in eating meat.
I think some religions have made life difficult for its followers by going too much in details to tell what should be done and what is not to be done, when to eat and what to eat, with which hand to eat etc, etc - they had made their religion mechanical. All these thing are not necessary. These selections are the consequence of spirituality and enlightenment, they are not the causes of it.
We must put efforts to elevate ourselves spiritually, all other things will follow on their own.
With Love and Respect for all
Amarpal.
No body in this world is perfect vegetarian. The first nurishment which every one gets after birth, in strict sense of the term, is non-vegetarian - the mother's milk. The curds that people eat have live becteria multiplying in it. Honey too is non-vegetarian and is snatched from poor helpless bees, as cows milk is snatched from the calf, who are the rightful owner of it. i do not know if the vegetarians are not sinners.
When I have the option, I too take vegetarian food, this is because the life has not yet manifested in it. For me egg and grain both are same, they have suspended life in it and has manifested yet. when I do not have the option I have no hesitation in eating meat.
I think some religions have made life difficult for its followers by going too much in details to tell what should be done and what is not to be done, when to eat and what to eat, with which hand to eat etc, etc - they had made their religion mechanical. All these thing are not necessary. These selections are the consequence of spirituality and enlightenment, they are not the causes of it.
We must put efforts to elevate ourselves spiritually, all other things will follow on their own.
With Love and Respect for all
Amarpal.
plamba
SPNer
Folks,
In this context, I'd like to offer the following essay as food for thought:
Kala Afghana on Non-Vegetarianism
By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA
http://sikhtimes.com/books_090803a.html
Thanks,
Puneet
In this context, I'd like to offer the following essay as food for thought:
Kala Afghana on Non-Vegetarianism
By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA
http://sikhtimes.com/books_090803a.html
Thanks,
Puneet
plamba
SPNer
ThinkingOne said:
I'd like to offer Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a counter-example. He was a strict vegetarian but a violent man.
For a detailed discussion on why I think Bhindranwale was a violent man, please see the following essay:
Top Five Bhindranwale Myths
By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA
http://sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html
(1289-11)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
pahilaaN maasahu nimmi-aa maasai andar vaas.
First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh.
jee-o paa-ay maas muhi mili-aa had chamm tan maas.
When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh.
maasahu baahar kadhi-aa mammaa maas giraas.
He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast.
muhu maasai kaa jeebh maasai kee maasai andar saas.
His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh.
vadaa ho-aa vee-aahi-aa ghar lai aa-i-aa maas.
He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home.
maasahu hee maas oopjai maasahu sabho saak.
Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh.
satgur mili-ai hukam bujhee-ai taaN ko aavai raas.
When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the IK ONG KAAR he comes to be reformed.
aap chhutay nah chhootee-ai naanak bachan binaas. ||1||
Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1||
(1289-15)
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
Page 1290
istaree purkhai jaaN nis maylaa othai manDh kamaahee.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
baahar kaa maas mandaa su-aamee ghar kaa maas changayraa.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
jee-a jant sabh maasahu ho-ay jee-ay la-i-aa vaasayraa.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
abhakh bhakheh bhakh taj chhodeh anDh guroo jin kayraa.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
jay o-ay diseh narak jaaNday taaN unH kaa daan na lainaa.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
dayNdaa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.
aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paaNday kharaa si-aanaa.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaaN to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.
aytay ras chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||
Need we say more?????
Peace & Love
Tejwant
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
pahilaaN maasahu nimmi-aa maasai andar vaas.
First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh.
jee-o paa-ay maas muhi mili-aa had chamm tan maas.
When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh.
maasahu baahar kadhi-aa mammaa maas giraas.
He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast.
muhu maasai kaa jeebh maasai kee maasai andar saas.
His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh.
vadaa ho-aa vee-aahi-aa ghar lai aa-i-aa maas.
He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home.
maasahu hee maas oopjai maasahu sabho saak.
Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh.
satgur mili-ai hukam bujhee-ai taaN ko aavai raas.
When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Hukam of the IK ONG KAAR he comes to be reformed.
aap chhutay nah chhootee-ai naanak bachan binaas. ||1||
Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O Nanak, through empty words, one is ruined. ||1||
(1289-15)
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
Page 1290
istaree purkhai jaaN nis maylaa othai manDh kamaahee.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
baahar kaa maas mandaa su-aamee ghar kaa maas changayraa.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
jee-a jant sabh maasahu ho-ay jee-ay la-i-aa vaasayraa.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
abhakh bhakheh bhakh taj chhodeh anDh guroo jin kayraa.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paaNday.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
jay o-ay diseh narak jaaNday taaN unH kaa daan na lainaa.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
dayNdaa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.
aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paaNday kharaa si-aanaa.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaaN to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.
aytay ras chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||
Need we say more?????
Peace & Love
Tejwant
CaramelChocolate
SPNer
I was hoping to start this discussion myself soon, but anyway, here are my two cents....
I would like to share two quotes from Guruji:
Page 723
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
Page 1289
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
In my opinion, avoiding meat is a preferred diet, however, Guruji teaches that it is much more important to worry about spiritual progress than just a diet. So I feel that if one feels confident in his spiritual practice, then he should begin to think about avoiding things such as meat.
By the way, is it true that amritdharis have to avoid meat [and sex but ONLY for procreation]?
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
I would like to share two quotes from Guruji:
Page 723
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
Page 1289
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
In my opinion, avoiding meat is a preferred diet, however, Guruji teaches that it is much more important to worry about spiritual progress than just a diet. So I feel that if one feels confident in his spiritual practice, then he should begin to think about avoiding things such as meat.
By the way, is it true that amritdharis have to avoid meat [and sex but ONLY for procreation]?
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
For our Gurus, meat eating is too trival a thing to have an issue about.
Peace & Love
Tejwant
Peace & Love
Tejwant
CaramelChocolate
SPNer
Well compared to what was going on at the time, I guess meat wasn't important...VaheguruSeekr said:
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
As already mentioned by Tejwant ji:
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
Above is a truth, which incidentally came to me, in these discussions only.
John, I havent come across any amritdhari sikh yet, who eats meat (from animal kingdom), but Also I dont recall Punj Pyaras telling about not to do this in the Amrit ceremony. About sex, I guess (in reality) it is upto individual restraint, although what u mentioned is correct.
Best Regards.
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
Above is a truth, which incidentally came to me, in these discussions only.
John, I havent come across any amritdhari sikh yet, who eats meat (from animal kingdom), but Also I dont recall Punj Pyaras telling about not to do this in the Amrit ceremony. About sex, I guess (in reality) it is upto individual restraint, although what u mentioned is correct.
Best Regards.
CaramelChocolate
SPNer
Oh yeah, I was told that you HAVE to be a vegetarian to read SGGS.
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
~CaramelChocolate~
The little philosopher
What Guru Nanak Dev Ji has mentioned in the above GURBANI VERSES is :-
Pure Vegetarians do not even drink water.
Peace & Love
Tejwant
Pure Vegetarians do not even drink water.
Peace & Love
Tejwant
Shall I add on, PURE vegetarians may not be even talking or breathing!!! I am not joking. Why I said so, as they might be thinking that living orgnisms in air should not get killed! Thats certainly extreme of things, but monks cover their mouth going upto that level! For a normal human living, being pure vegetarian is just impossible. We end up killing some or other thing for consumption from different kingdoms.
ThinkingOne ji,
It was just tongue in cheek comment..
Peace & Love
Tejwant
It was just tongue in cheek comment..
Peace & Love
Tejwant
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