A Marriage Question

ExEc · Feb 23, 2010

Both of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the things. My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict with one thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his action with irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something like that. He has made some racist comments and he believes that only sikhi people should be allowed into our home.

What i'm trying to get at is this: My father is very religious and he says that if I marry someone not from our religion, he will leave us.
Is there in any way I can show to him that he is wrong? Something from Guru Granth Sahib? I know that Sikhism doesn't allow outside marriage, but if I can point out to him that it Sikhi doesn't agree or point out that we only have to be bound to our religion. Maybe I can convince him.

I don't believe in religion at all but I've seen all of the people in the world as humans. I'm not any better than them and they aren't any better than me. I don't see anyone by their religion or force my thoughts upon anyone. I still don't want my dad to be unhappy if I ever get married and it's a woman outside from Sikhi religion. I really care about him, I want to help him because I respect him a lot, but I don't want to be forced into selecting someone in sikhism.

If someone can help me I would be grateful. Also, if you can try to give me the page of Guru Granth Sahib and what it says.

I can understand it's not exactly right to come to a Sikh forum for to ask help about getting married outside of religion. But please, try to see it in my perspective. I don't want him to leave or me being forced.

spnadmin · Feb 23, 2010

Originally Posted by ExEc
Both of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the things. My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict with one thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his action with irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something like that. He has made some racist comments and he believes that only sikhi people should be allowed into our home.

What i'm trying to get at is this: My father is very religious and he says that if I marry someone not from our religion, he will leave us.
Is there in any way I can show to him that he is wrong? Something from Guru Granth Sahib? I know that Sikhism doesn't allow outside marriage, but if I can point out to him that it Sikhi doesn't agree or point out that we only have to be bound to our religion. Maybe I can convince him.

I don't believe in religion at all but I've seen all of the people in the world as humans. I'm not any better than them and they aren't any better than me. I don't see anyone by their religion or force my thoughts upon anyone. I still don't want my dad to be unhappy if I ever get married and it's a woman outside from Sikhi religion. I really care about him, I want to help him because I respect him a lot, but I don't want to be forced into selecting someone in sikhism.

If someone can help me I would be grateful. Also, if you can try to give me the page of Guru Granth Sahib and what it says.

I can understand it's not exactly right to come to a Sikh forum for to ask help about getting married outside of religion. But please, try to see it in my perspective. I don't want him to leave or me being forced.

ExEc ji

I have highlighted in bold and color the places where I see some mis-alignment.

You and your father have views regarding religion that are very different.
He says he will leave the family if you marry outside your religion. There are other situations where the child is disowned if this happens.

I am not going to give you advice, other than to say it sounds like you have the opportunity to communicate with your parents -- you say they are intelligent and kind.

Last but not least. You are not going to find advice in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj either. Unlike many other scriptures, SGGS is not a rule-book and was never intended to be a rule-book. The core idea of marriage in Sikhism is that bride and bridegroom become one soul. Both are encouraged to be the Soul Bride or spouse of the Beloved, who is Waheguru.

ਮ: ੩ ॥ mehlaa 3. Third Mehl:
ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay.
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.

ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥
ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ((3))
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies.

Ang 788

Your father's values are derived directly from the Sikh Rehat Maryada which is a code of conduct for Sikhs in their personal and corporate lives.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Chapter 11, Article XVIII k. Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock by the Anand Karaj ceremony. [/FONT]
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

He apparently takes this very seriously. Many would say he deserves respect for doing so. And if you read the information at the link above it becomes very clear that the SRM's perspective and the understanding of one light in two bodies as the Soul Bride are difficult to separate.

Try to find a solution that serves both your need and his, a common ground.

ExEc · Feb 23, 2010

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur
ExEc ji

I have highlighted in bold and color the places where I see some mis-alignment.

You and your father have views regarding religion that are very different.
He says he will leave the family if you marry outside your religion. There are other situations where the child is disowned if this happens.

I am not going to give you advice, other than to say it sounds like you have the opportunity to communicate with your parents -- you say they are intelligent and kind.

Last but not least. You are not going to find advice in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj either. Unlike many other scriptures, SGGS is not a rule-book and was never intended to be a rule-book. The core idea of marriage in Sikhism is that bride and bridegroom become one soul. Both are encouraged to be the Soul Bride or spouse of the Beloved, who is Waheguru.

ਮ: ੩ ॥ mehlaa 3. Third Mehl:
ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay.
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.

ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥
ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ((3))
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies.

Ang 788

Your father's values are derived directly from the Sikh Rehat Maryada which is a code of conduct for Sikhs in their personal and corporate lives.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Chapter 11, Article XVIII k. Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock by the Anand Karaj ceremony. [/FONT]
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

He apparently takes this very seriously. Many would say he deserves respect for doing so. And if you read the information at the link above it becomes very clear that the SRM's perspective and the understanding of one light in two bodies as the Soul Bride are difficult to separate.

Try to find a solution that serves both your need and his, a common ground.

Yes he deserves respect for what he believes in. I'm not trying to take anything away from him. The thing is, I just don't believe in any religion. I don't want to have arguments or fights over religion with my future wife. Me and my dad have been fighting about Sikhism for a long time.
He wants me to attend Sikh camp and he dislikes all of my friends that aren't Sikhs.
At the moment I'm in a relationship, me and my girlfriend have been together for nearly 7 years. We haven't had any big problems with our relationship.

So, I should respect my fathers views and leave my girlfriend. Get married to Indian girl that has Sikhism for religion so he can be happy?

spnadmin · Feb 23, 2010

ExEC ji

That is the question I do not want to answer because you have to search your heart and consider all the consequences that come from either choice you make. No one in an Internet forum can do that for you, or should give you advice. Who can walk in your shoes? On the Internet responses are projections of the person who replies. I would be very reflective about that.

Caspian · Feb 24, 2010

Simple Answer: Do what makes you happy :happy:

If you love this girl (and she is not of your religion) marry her. Its all about your happiness anyways. As a Sikh in a Sikh Family I can say, without a doubt, that sometimes your parents/family are more concerned about their image then your happiness.

Keep in mind that, your happiness comes with a cost. (Like your father "leaving the family"). But I say, "call his bluff" and go for it, you'll probably be better off in the long run if you opt to make your decisions based on what makes you happy.

ExEc · Feb 24, 2010

Thanks Narayanjot Kaur. You're right, I'll have to try things better on my own.

Haha! That's a real nice answer Caspian, I've considering calling my fathers bluff before. I think he would still like to us to stay as a family.
What you wrote about being happy in the long run, how did that EVER skip my mind?
I've been so caught up with thinking about my father and what would my relatives would think, that I forgot to tell myself that it'll make me happy.

Thank you so much!

Randip Singh · Feb 24, 2010

ExEc said:
Both of my parents are really nice people and understand most of the things. My mother and father are open minded, but my father is strict with one thing, religion. If he gets angry at something he shows his action with irritation, and then denies it that he ever said something like that. He has made some racist comments and he believes that only sikhi people should be allowed into our home.<?"urn:fficeffice" />

ExEc said:
What i'm trying to get at is this: My father is very religious and he says that if I marry someone not from our religion, he will leave us.
Is there in any way I can show to him that he is wrong? Something from Guru Granth Sahib? I know that Sikhism doesn't allow outside marriage, but if I can point out to him that it Sikhi doesn't agree or point out that we only have to be bound to our religion. Maybe I can convince him.

I don't believe in religion at all but I've seen all of the people in the world as humans. I'm not any better than them and they aren't any better than me. I don't see anyone by their religion or force my thoughts upon anyone. I still don't want my dad to be unhappy if I ever get married and it's a woman outside from Sikhi religion. I really care about him, I want to help him because I respect him a lot, but I don't want to be forced into selecting someone in sikhism.

If someone can help me I would be grateful. Also, if you can try to give me the page of Guru Granth Sahib and what it says.

I can understand it's not exactly right to come to a Sikh forum for to ask help about getting married outside of religion. But please, try to see it in my perspective. I don't want him to leave or me being forced.

Point 1
<o

> </o

>
Your father should not be blackmailing you like this.
<o

> </o

>
Point 2
<o

> </o

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You too should respect your father’s wishes.
<o

> </o

>
Point 3
<o

> </o

>
Sikhs come in all races and colours. There are white Sikhs, Black Sikhs, Chinese Sikhs, Punjabi Sikhs etc etc, so be clear whether you mean outside Sikh or outside Punjabi.
<o

> </o

>
Point 4
<o

> </o

>
Guru Gobind Singh ji has stated “Maanas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano”. Recognise the Human Race as One!
<o

> </o

>
A true Sikh is never racist.
<o

> </o

>
Point 5
<o

> </o

>
Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?
<o

> </o

>
Point 6
<o

> </o

>
Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

ExEc · Feb 24, 2010

Point 1
<o

> </o

>
Your father should not be blackmailing you like this.

It doesn't stop him. I actually told him that he was blackmailing me, he denies it. He says it's not blackmailing.
<o

> </o

>
Point 2
<o

> </o

>
You too should respect your father’s wishes.

I don't interfere whatever he believes in on what he does. I don't question but rather help if he needs me or if he doesn't, i'll be always there for him.
<o

> </o

>
Point 3
<o

> </o

>
Sikhs come in all races and colours. There are white Sikhs, Black Sikhs, Chinese Sikhs, Punjabi Sikhs etc etc, so be clear whether you mean outside Sikh or outside Punjabi.

Outside of both.
<o

> </o

>
Point 4
<o

> </o

>
Guru Gobind Singh ji has stated “Maanas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano”. Recognise the Human Race as One!
<o

> </o

>
A true Sikh is never racist.

His beliefs are that everyone else are lesser and Sikhism is the best. I don't speculate on it or anything because I'm more than sure of it.
<o

> </o

>
Point 5
<o

> </o

>
Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?

I've questioned my father and people from Gurdwara when they tried to slightly force religion on me. They tell me to believe in whatever they want because they can't answer. My father calls me stupid if he says something and I question him on it. Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu people have their to question me and forced me in one way or another.

I don't tell people what to believe in or question their beliefs.
If Sikhism considers everyone equal, it shouldn't matter whatever they believe in, as long as they are a good person. It's the beliefs and thoughts that differs every human being. If we can't marry someone that we love or think that we should only marry people from our own religion, that question defeats the whole "equality" argument.
It's not like I'm a bad person or that I don't care for anyone. I care for everyone in this world, I just believe that I should be a good person.

Sikh people that I've met from Gurdrawa always question me and don't look too friendly when I question them back. If they are able to tell what they think is the most right, I should be able to tell my side.
They attend and follow everything that is written in Guru Granth Sahib. One of the families I know, their is mother divorced. Yet they talk about not marrying outside of the religion just because of soul bonding. That's just one example out of many others. They think of other people are less intelligent than them. There have been some times where they made some really unfriendly remarks toward other religions.

Now I know not all of the people are like that, and you might say that I've had bad encounters because that's not how Sikhs should be. I've seen and been in bad situations all my life, since birth. Mostly because of religion and I denied that it was because of religion. Later on, I just had to accept it after the age of 23. It wasn't just because of Sikhism but other religions as well.

My father thinks if i marry someone outside of our religion, i'll leave them and won't care for them. The reality is that wherever I am, I'm not going to let go of them or stop caring for them. They are the most precious thing to me. At weekends my father watches the religious program on tv, I sit down and just listen because it makes him happy. He tends to tell me that I should sit with him and listen, I do that. It's not that I want to say that whatever they are saying on TV is completely wrong or anything. It's just to make him happy.
And yes, he does get annoyed if I don't sit and watch it with him.
<o

> </o

>
Point 6
<o

> </o

>
Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

Yes, I've explored them. The only things I've heard so far are -Our culture needs to be preserved- or -When Sikhs marry they truly belong to each other and help each other out in every situation.-

If I ask them -What culture?- they can't give me a straight answer. Or simply -So only we have a culture that is better than others? We are all still humans so what does it matter-

When Sikhs marry they belong to each other, well I've seen marriages that are broken, unhappy and quite weird Sikh families. Also Aren't we all equal?
So far, they haven't been able to answer me with a straight answer rather go through a lot of stuff that doesn't even matter in marriage.
I guess he wants the best for me, and he think the best way I can get happiness with marriage is if I marry someone in our own religion. I can see that point but he doesn't even want to meet my girlfriend or give her a chance. He tells me that no girl should be allowed in our house unless they are from our own religion.

Please, I hope this whole subject doesn't turn into why I don't believe in any religion. I'm here as a human, a human that needs help.

Randip Singh · Feb 24, 2010

ExEc said:
Point 1
<o> </o>

Point 5
<o> </o>
Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?

I've questioned my father and people from Gurdwara when they tried to slightly force religion on me. They tell me to believe in whatever they want because they can't answer. My father calls me stupid if he says something and I question him on it. Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu people have their to question me and forced me in one way or another.

I don't tell people what to believe in or question their beliefs.
If Sikhism considers everyone equal, it shouldn't matter whatever they believe in, as long as they are a good person. It's the beliefs and thoughts that differs every human being. If we can't marry someone that we love or think that we should only marry people from our own religion, that question defeats the whole "equality" argument.
It's not like I'm a bad person or that I don't care for anyone. I care for everyone in this world, I just believe that I should be a good person.

Sikh people that I've met from Gurdrawa always question me and don't look too friendly when I question them back. If they are able to tell what they think is the most right, I should be able to tell my side.
They attend and follow everything that is written in Guru Granth Sahib. One of the families I know, their is mother divorced. Yet they talk about not marrying outside of the religion just because of soul bonding. That's just one example out of many others. They think of other people are less intelligent than them. There have been some times where they made some really unfriendly remarks toward other religions.

Now I know not all of the people are like that, and you might say that I've had bad encounters because that's not how Sikhs should be. I've seen and been in bad situations all my life, since birth. Mostly because of religion and I denied that it was because of religion. Later on, I just had to accept it after the age of 23. It wasn't just because of Sikhism but other religions as well.

My father thinks if i marry someone outside of our religion, i'll leave them and won't care for them. The reality is that wherever I am, I'm not going to let go of them or stop caring for them. They are the most precious thing to me. At weekends my father watches the religious program on tv, I sit down and just listen because it makes him happy. He tends to tell me that I should sit with him and listen, I do that. It's not that I want to say that whatever they are saying on TV is completely wrong or anything. It's just to make him happy.
And yes, he does get annoyed if I don't sit and watch it with him.
<o> </o>
Point 6
<o> </o>
Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

Yes, I've explored them. The only things I've heard so far are -Our culture needs to be preserved- or -When Sikhs marry they truly belong to each other and help each other out in every situation.-

If I ask them -What culture?- they can't give me a straight answer. Or simply -So only we have a culture that is better than others? We are all still humans so what does it matter-

When Sikhs marry they belong to each other, well I've seen marriages that are broken, unhappy and quite weird Sikh families. Also Aren't we all equal?
So far, they haven't been able to answer me with a straight answer rather go through a lot of stuff that doesn't even matter in marriage.
I guess he wants the best for me, and he think the best way I can get happiness with marriage is if I marry someone in our own religion. I can see that point but he doesn't even want to meet my girlfriend or give her a chance. He tells me that no girl should be allowed in our house unless they are from our own religion.

Please, I hope this whole subject doesn't turn into why I don't believe in any religion. I'm here as a human, a human that needs help.

One thing for sure at SPN, no one will force any religion on you.

On Point 5 and 6, you haven't answered it.

Just because you see something from another's point of view it does not mean you necessarily believe in it.

I study Sufism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and other faiths. Does not mean I believe in their traditions, culture and way of doing things, but I understand EXACTLY why they do them. I this way I try not to judge them.

From what you are saying, you seem to have covered all bases, considered all possibilities, and basically pre-judged every scenario, based on what I can see .

May I ask what books you have read on Sikhism, because it will give me a clearer understanding of YOUR understanding.

Caspian · Feb 24, 2010

In his defense I would like to answer Point 5 and 6

Have you ever tried to explore the Sikh faith itself, rather than dismissing it and therefore seeing it from your fathers point of view?<o

>

A deeper understanding of the Sikh faith would only run contrary to his fathers point of view: That Sikhs are superior and marriage should be strictly within the Sikh religion. There is an inherit gap between theory and practice in the Sikh community. In theory we should be open-minded, non judgemental and understanding. In practice, the lot of us are anything but (like his father, and my father for that matter: its either the sikh-way or the high-way

). But the question could be reworded and asked to the father as well: "Have you ever tried to explore your Son's ideas, rather then dismissing them?"

</o

>Minority Groups like Sikhs use endogamy as a way to ensure that they do not lose their own culture and traditions. Do you value these cultures and traditions? Have you explored them?

I value most (if not all) of these cultures and traditions except for the culturally ingrained tradition of "endogamy"

This is really a moot question. If the answer is "No" (which it most likely is) then nothing is stopping him from marrying the girl he wants (which is the case) the only thing is "Can I get my father to understand eventually?". If the answer is "yes" then their is no point to asking the questions because Endogamy itself is cultural and traditional value that one would want to preserve through Endogamy yet it is that same value of Endogamy that is in his way (therefore, the answer becomes a No).

Tejwant Singh · Feb 24, 2010

ExEc,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome to the forum. What I gather from your posts is the communication problems between yourself and your father.

First and foremost Sikhi is not a religion. It is based on pragmatism. Hence the name Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker. By being a student one becomes open minded. So, what I can see from your posts is that you are against Sikhi not any other religion because you did not mention that your girl friend is an atheist or belongs to any other religion. The reason could be the spat, the inner disdain for your Dad but the outer " respect" which is nothing but a facade.

As you have said several times that your dad gets angry at you which shows that he has not studied Gurbani which gives us the tools to improve our behaviour. It helps us to breed goodness within. So, if you give yourself a chance to study what Gurbani says rather than rejecting it by justifying that it is another dogmatic religion, you will see how it changes your life. Don't we all want to become better people irrespective of our faith, hue or creed?

So, just give yourself a chance to breed goodness within which you can also share with your girl friend rather than rejecting some thing that you have not even tried.

Knowledge is our friend, not our enemy. I let my kids study all kinds of religions.

Following is the essay that my son wrote for his 9th grade English class.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational-stories/28767-unfair-discrimination.html

Take care and do not let your inner windows close on you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

ExEc · Feb 24, 2010

Randip Singh said:
One thing for sure at SPN, no one will force any religion on you.

On Point 5 and 6, you haven't answered it.

Just because you see something from another's point of view it does not mean you necessarily believe in it.

I study Sufism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and other faiths. Does not mean I believe in their traditions, culture and way of doing things, but I understand EXACTLY why they do them. I this way I try not to judge them.

From what you are saying, you seem to have covered all bases, considered all possibilities, and basically pre-judged every scenario, based on what I can see .

May I ask what books you have read on Sikhism, because it will give me a clearer understanding of YOUR understanding.

I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.

I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.

Tejwant Singh said:
ExEc,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome to the forum. What I gather from your posts is the communication problems between yourself and your father.

First and foremost Sikhi is not a religion. It is based on pragmatism. Hence the name Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker. By being a student one becomes open minded. So, what I can see from your posts is that you are against Sikhi not any other religion because you did not mention that your girl friend is an atheist or belongs to any other religion. The reason could be the spat, the inner disdain for your Dad but the outer " respect" which is nothing but a facade.

As you have said several times that your dad gets angry at you which shows that he has not studied Gurbani which gives us the tools to improve our behaviour. It helps us to breed goodness within. So, if you give yourself a chance to study what Gurbani says rather than rejecting it by justifying that it is another dogmatic religion, you will see how it changes your life. Don't we all want to become better people irrespective of our faith, hue or creed?

So, just give yourself a chance to breed goodness within which you can also share with your girl friend rather than rejecting some thing that you have not even tried.

Knowledge is our friend, not our enemy. I let my kids study all kinds of religions.

Following is the essay that my son wrote for his 9th grade English class.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational-stories/28767-unfair-discrimination.html

Take care and do not let your inner windows close on you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Yes, my girlfriend is Atheist and so am I. I'm sorry but when you say "chance to breed goodness", do you even know me? You can't tell me if I'm a good or a bad person. Even the "do not let your inner windows close on you" is something a preacher would write. Yep, all the people that believe in something else have closed their inner windows and stopped "breeding goodness".

Please, can you stop trying to convince me to read through Sikhism? What if I still don't agree? What if I have even more questions than answers?

Yes, I can get everything I wrote the opposite. That what if i started to agree? What if I got all of the answers I needed? Well...through peoples behavior and the way they do things, I'm leaning towards not agreeing or getting any answers.

Knowledge is my friends, yes that's true. That's why I've picked up science.

It's good that your kid is learning about religion, because that's how people can't deny God at all. Even if they try to think there is no god, their personal belief system would strike back. A lot of self-anger and conflicting thoughts...yep, I've been there.

Alright, It looks like I just assumed something. I'm just guessing that you don't teach your kid that.

If my kids would want to believe in God then be it. If they didn't then be that. I won't tell them anything, except that being a good person always brings happiness. Both to other peoples lives and their own. Goodness can over come everything, it's up to you what's good and what's bad. I'll always be there to give my advice that makes sense to you and I'll always love you.

Why? Because my mother did this, she is like a goddess for me. I've always been open to her about everything. Just because I respect her so much and has always been there for me. I'm not going to go into details of what she has done. I don't want to share too much personal information.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but, please can we just leave this subject? If you ask me questions like that, i'll just ask you even more questions about your belief.

Like I said, I want help as a human being. I don't want people to give me their opinions on religions. Please don't tell me Sikhism isn't a religion, I've heard that one before and you can think of me as an arrogant person. But I just don't want to argue if it's a religion or not. I want help from a person, not someone who wishes to ask me how much I know about their religion. That just gives me the impression of you trying to do what every other religion has done so far.

PS: I don't want to attack Sikhism or question it here. So that's why I just don't want to talk about how much I know of Sikhism.

Tejwant Singh · Feb 24, 2010

ExEc said:
I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.

I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.

Yes, my girlfriend is Atheist and so am I. I'm sorry but when you say "chance to breed goodness", do you even know me? You can't tell me if I'm a good or a bad person. Even the "do not let your inner windows close on you" is something a preacher would write. Yep, all the people that believe in something else have closed their inner windows and stopped "breeding goodness".

Please, can you stop trying to convince me to read through Sikhism? What if I still don't agree? What if I have even more questions than answers?

Yes, I can get everything I wrote the opposite. That what if i started to agree? What if I got all of the answers I needed? Well...through peoples behavior and the way they do things, I'm leaning towards not agreeing or getting any answers.

Knowledge is my friends, yes that's true. That's why I've picked up science.

It's good that your kid is learning about religion, because that's how people can't deny God at all. Even if they try to think there is no god, their personal belief system would strike back. A lot of self-anger and conflicting thoughts...yep, I've been there.

Alright, It looks like I just assumed something. I'm just guessing that you don't teach your kid that.

If my kids would want to believe in God then be it. If they didn't then be that. I won't tell them anything, except that being a good person always brings happiness. Both to other peoples lives and their own. Goodness can over come everything, it's up to you what's good and what's bad. I'll always be there to give my advice that makes sense to you and I'll always love you.

Why? Because my mother did this, she is like a goddess for me. I've always been open to her about everything. Just because I respect her so much and has always been there for me. I'm not going to go into details of what she has done. I don't want to share too much personal information.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but, please can we just leave this subject? If you ask me questions like that, i'll just ask you even more questions about your belief.

Like I said, I want help as a human being. I don't want people to give me their opinions on religions. Please don't tell me Sikhism isn't a religion, I've heard that one before and you can think of me as an arrogant person. But I just don't want to argue if it's a religion or not. I want help from a person, not someone who wishes to ask me how much I know about their religion. That just gives me the impression of you trying to do what every other religion has done so far.

PS: I don't want to attack Sikhism or question it here. So that's why I just don't want to talk about how much I know of Sikhism.

Exec,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what is the connection between what I wrote and your response. I am not a preacher nor do I pretend or intend to be. I am a Sikh, a student, a learner, a seeker like anyone else in this world irrespective of his/her creed, hue or faith.

You feel offended. I do apologise for that. It was not the intention. It is you who talked about your relationship with your father and other things in your posts. I have no idea what your gripe is. It would help a bit if you explained it.

We are here to interact and it is OK to disagree. No one is trying to impose anything on anyone here. As you have your opinions and are free to express them here, so do others including myself.

Only you know why you are reluctant to sharing about your knowledge of Sikhi. Atheism itself is an ism. There are some threads in this forum about your ism too. Please read them and share your opinion with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Navdeep88 · Feb 25, 2010

ExEc,

Do what makes you happy.

roab1 · Feb 25, 2010

Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something.

Knowledge is my friends, yes that's true. That's why I've picked up science.

Love for a beautiful woman caused downfall of many a great man. thats knowledge

There is no such thing as love. thats science

sorry for going of topic.

And by the way, pick up any religious scripture and its all about LOVE for GOD.

Caspian · Feb 25, 2010

Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something.

Philosophically speaking (from a scientific perspective, im a major in cognitive systems). Love is a "qualia." Qualia are concepts that cannot be explained but must be experienced. So when your asking for a scientific definition of love—I cant give you one. Moreover, I wouldnt even be able to give you a spiritual or religious definition of love—you would still have to experience love first hand.

For example, another "Qualia" is the color "red." No matter how hard I try to describe it to you (I can call it "warm," a lightwave of 700 micrometers in wavelength or w/e) you will never understand "red" until you experience red.

Now... for us to say something like "If God doesnt exist neither does red" would be kind of ridiculous. We would either have to concede the possibility that

1) God's existance is not a neccesary requirment for qulia such as Love or "Red"
2) God's existance is a neccesary requirment for the existance of everything and not just Love

And if its the latter case. There was no point asking for a scientific definition to begin with—you'd be quite happy with the "God did it" definition.

Thats an answer from the "Computational Theory of Mind" scientific and philosophical approaches

Its more commonly used to argue against the possibility of programming a "AI System" that can feel love or see red in the same sense that Humans do.

(Personally, I believe that love and red are programmable, we just havent figured out how

but even then I dunt think God's existance is a neccessary pre req for the existance of love).

Randip Singh · Feb 25, 2010

ExEc said:
I think Caspian actually gave a really good answer for that. That's somewhat I would've written. He is old, so I don't expect him to see things from my point of view. Also, i'm not trying to make myself comfortable with marriage outside of religion. I'm trying to satisfy my parents and trying to make sure that which ever girl I marry has a warm welcome to our family. My mother knows that we should marry a person that we are truly sure about and can trust. She was brought up in very strict and very religious family (Not Sikhism). She feels sorry that I can't bring my girlfriend into our home, because she would really like to meet my girlfriend.

I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them. And please don't tell me to read any, if I took everyones opinion on what to read I think my life would pass by quite quickly. Through out the history there have been many religions and I don't really feel like exploring each and every one of them. If people want to have beliefs then go ahead. I'm not going to judge them any better or any less than myself.

.

No offense, but I am more interested in your level of knowledge. There are some massive statements you have made, and I am keen to learn what is the basis for those statments.

From what I gather you have limited knowledge on Sikhism. Your judgements seemed to be informed by your fathers narrow view and some biggoted people you have met (yes there are biggoted Sikhs).

I do not think you are in any position to make a judgement or persuade your father on anything yet because your own knowledge is incomplete.

How can I challenge an Accountant when I do know how to count?

I say this not only about knowledge about Sikhism, but knowledge about life.

Your actions seems to be guided by what YOU want. Your wants and needs.Mun. Amongst the Sikhs (and Philosophers), self will.

You have not explored outwardly enough to make judgements, and yet you have asked us to make a jusgement on your relationship here.

You need to go and contemplate about what your actions are in this, not other peoples. Are you being guided by Egotism? Are you being guided by lust? What are your true motives? Are looking for justification for those motives?

Caspian · Feb 25, 2010

Please could you tell me what books you have read on Sikhism? - Randip

In the passage you quoted. He said: "I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them."

EDIT
No Problem, was just helping you out

will not "butt-in" any further.
Thought you might have missed the quote, thats all.

Randip Singh · Feb 25, 2010

Caspian said:
Please could you tell me what books you have read on Sikhism? - Randip

In the passage you quoted. He said: "I haven't read any books about Sikhism, just some small passages if someone talks about them."

No offense but can you not but in when I aam asking him questions.

also note the change to my post.

ExEc · Feb 25, 2010

Tejwant Singh said:
Exec,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what is the connection between what I wrote and your response. I am not a preacher nor do I pretend or intend to be. I am a Sikh, a student, a learner, a seeker like anyone else in this world irrespective of his/her creed, hue or faith.

You feel offended. I do apologise for that. It was not the intention. It is you who talked about your relationship with your father and other things in your posts. I have no idea what your gripe is. It would help a bit if you explained it.

We are here to interact and it is OK to disagree. No one is trying to impose anything on anyone here. As you have your opinions and are free to express them here, so do others including myself.

Only you know why you are reluctant to sharing about your knowledge of Sikhi. Atheism itself is an ism. There are some threads in this forum about your ism too. Please read them and share your opinion with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh-ji. No need to apologize, I'm sorry for over reactive. It was late yesterday and there had been an argument between me and my father. I'm really sorry about that.

Yea, The ism thing. I'm sure you can put ism behind nearly anything. hmm, let me put it in a simpler way. I don't believe in God and nor do I see any need for one. Even if I have small thoughts about there being a God, It can be any type of god from any type of religion. All i believe in is, if you're a good person and there might be a God. As long as I'm a good person, it wouldn't matter if I follow any religion or not.

Caspian

Wow Caspian! The things you write are nearly as same as my thoughts. Thank you, for some reason it feels like you understand me quite well. Hmm, have you gone through the same situation?

Love makes you fickle minded. How would science define love? If God doesnt exist neither does love. You would feel no remorse if your girlfriend was to die 2morrow unless you believed in something.

Love for a beautiful woman caused downfall of many a great man. thats knowledge

There is no such thing as love. thats science

sorry for going of topic.

And by the way, pick up any religious scripture and its all about LOVE for GOD.

Umm, You do know, downfall of science has been religion right? Science actually has an answer for that, they can't directly explain what love is. I don't think religion can explain love either. Like science it just HITS at what love is. On the other hand science evolves and some day it might be able to explain love.

Also, yes I am in love but it's not like i'm completely blinded by something. I actually don't even need to care about my father, me and my girlfriend would be living together. So why does it matter that I'm actually trying to find things out and make sure that he isn't disappointed of me. Also, my cousin had to merry someone from their own religion. His parents forced him into it (yea, it sounds like old times) now he doesn't care about his wife or his child. Because he doesn't get along with his wife. What good was that?
Can I say, that religion has been the downfall of humanity as much as love has?

I think even a scientist would disagree that we won't feel any remorse. Even animals feel remorse. Everything living has feelings. Evolution can actually explain why but not fully, and the way they explain it makes sense.
You should be happy if your whole family dies. They are going to god, of course you will miss them but you'll die soon too. So be happy about dying, you'll be getting to a better place! Why do we cry instead of celebrating a persons departure to a better place. It makes as much sense as crying.

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