Why Sadh Sangat? Why Not Go It Alone?

This thread is intended for a discussion of shabad vichaar.

Below is a couplet from Raag Aaasa, first Mehl, on Ang 437 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The complete shabad is at this link

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/437/line/20032



ਸਾਧ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath nadhar prabhoo sukh paaeiaa ||

In the Company of the Holy, and the Saints' Society, by God's Grace, peace is obtained.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਚੂਕੇ ਮੋਹ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
har kee bhagath rathae bairaagee chookae moh piaasaa ||

हरि की भगति रते बैरागी चूके मोह पिआसा ॥
The renunciates remain absorbed in devotional worship to the Lord; they are rid of emotional attachment and desire.


I wanted to begin with only this couplet, in the hope that others who discuss this topic would seek out the many other shabads where the idea of sangat is mentioned in Guru Granth. If you did that, the discussion could be very rich in insights.

Here is my question. As we continue on our journey to discover our "true identity" do we need sangat? Can this be a journey of the lonesome soul, a traveler without companions?

Sub-questions.

saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Is this wrongly understood in the plural?
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Does this refer only to the company of Waheguru?
bairaagee
Does this imply that in being detached we must be unattached from the company of others on a similar journey?


Please ground your reply in gurbani.

Re: Why Saadhh Sangat? Why not go it alone?

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

We have to be sure we are all referring to the same meaning of sangat in SGGS ji.

I can think of at least two, but there may be more.

There is the commonly appreciated meaning of sangat, this being akin to the body of people attending a gurdwara ( usually with a purpose of seeking enlightenment - thus allowing some to term that sangat as "holy" and hence a saadhsangat)

There is also a body of souls focussed on the Lord but who are not physically met in the physical world, but can be visualised mentally when the mind is raised spiritually. They are referred to in the three intermediate khands, ( giaan khand, saram khand and karam khand) between dharam khand and sachkhand.

If one uses the former, then one is limited to searching for actual people who are at least as wise as or as holy as oneself, in order to make progress.
However the person sitting next to oneself on the bus, may be more holy than anyone in a gurdwara, and one may not know it. On the other hand one may sit all day long with a group of people in a diwan hall, hoping they are focused on the Lord and can impart some of their knowledge. However this may not be the case. One could make an assessment after attending a gurdwara regularly to see if ongoings in the gurdwara are shifting one towards God in any way, or if one is becoming attached to the gurdwara itself and its ongoings.

If one uses the latter definition, and uses this in conjuction with the wealth of shabds in SGGS ji all progress is subject to one's own willingness to learn directly from the prime source of spiritual advice of all Sikhs, ie from SGGS ji.

I personally prefer the latter, and seek that sangat. This choice is made after making prolonged attempts to attend daily, morning and evening at Gurdwaras. I found I did not grasp or contemplate the Gurus bani anywhere near as effectively as when I read for myself, and I also found it difficult to sit for extended periods on the floor.

On P180, Guru Arjan Dev ji, advises one does not need to look outside, or elsewhere and that the "company of the holy" can be found by deep meditation, and for me this is sufficient vindication that the saadhsangat may be found through a sole journey.

Here is the shabd:

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
ਆਨ ਰਸਾ ਜੇਤੇ ਤੈ ਚਾਖੇ ॥
aan rasaa jaytay tai chaakhay.
You may taste the other flavors,
ਿਨਮਖ ਨ ਿਤਰ੍ਸਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਲਾਥੇ ॥
nimakh na tarisnaa tayree laathay.
but your thirst shall not depart, even for an instant.
ਹਿਰ ਰਸ ਕਾ ਤੂੰ ਚਾਖਿਹ ਸਾਦ ੁ ॥
har ras kaa tooN chaakhahi saad.
But when you taste the sweet flavor the the Lord's sublime essence
ਚਾਖਤ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਹ ਿਬਸਮਾਦ ੁ ॥੧॥
chaakhat ho-ay raheh bismaad. ||1||
- upon tasting it, you shall be wonder-struck and amazed. ||1||
ਅੰਿਮਰ੍ਤੁ ਰਸਨਾ ਪੀਉ ਿਪਆਰੀ ॥
amrit rasnaa pee-o pi-aaree.
O dear beloved tongue, drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.
ਇਹ ਰਸ ਰਾਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਿਤਰ੍ਪਤਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ih ras raatee ho-ay tariptaaree. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Imbued with this sublime essence, you shall be satisfied. ||1||Pause||
ਹੇ ਿਜਹਵੇ ਤੂੰ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ ॥
hay jihvay tooN raam gun gaa-o.
O tongue, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.
ਿਨਮਖ ਿਨਮਖ ਹਿਰ ਹਿਰ ਹਿਰ ਿਧਆਉ ॥
nimakh nimakh har har har Dhi-aa-o.
Each and every moment, meditate on the Lord, Har, Har, Har.
ਆਨ ਨ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਕਤਹੰ ੂ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
aan na sunee-ai katahooN jaa-ee-ai.
Do not listen to any other, and do not go anywhere else.
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿਤ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
saaDhsangat vadbhaagee paa-ee-ai. ||2||
By great good fortune, you shall find the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.
||2||
ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਿਜਹਵੇ ਆਰਾਿਧ ॥ ਪਾਰਬਰ੍ਹਮ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਆਗਾਿਧ ॥
aath pahar jihvay aaraaDh. paarbarahm thaakur aagaaDh.
Twenty-four hours a day, O tongue, dwell upon God, the Unfathomable, Supreme Lord
and Master.
ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਹੇਲੀ ॥
eehaa oohaa sadaa suhaylee.
Here and hereafter, you shall be happy forever.
ਹਿਰ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਤ ਰਸਨ ਅਮੋਲੀ ॥੩॥
har gun gaavat rasan amolee. ||3||
Chanting the Glorious Praises of the Lord, O tongue, you shall become priceless. ||3||
ਬਨਸਪਿਤ ਮਉਲੀ ਫਲ ਫੁਲ ਪੇਡੇ ॥
banaspat ma-ulee fal ful payday.
All the vegetation will blossom forth for you, flowering in fruition;
ਇਹ ਰਸ ਰਾਤੀ ਬਹਿੁ ਰ ਨ ਛੋਡੇ ॥
ih ras raatee bahur na chhoday.
imbued with this sublime essence, you shall never leave it again.
ਆਨ ਨ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਲਾਈ ॥
aan na ras kas lavai na laa-ee.
No other sweet and tasty flavors can compare to it.
ਕਹ ੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਸਹਾਈ ॥੪॥੧੫॥੮੪॥
kaho naanak gur bha-ay hai sahaa-ee. ||4||15||84||​

Says Nanak, the Guru has become my Support. ||4||15||84||

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Sat Sri Akal

Re: Why Saadhh Sangat? Why not go it alone?

spnadmin said:

Below is a couplet from Raag Aaas, first Mehl, on Ang 437 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The complete shabad is at this link

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/437/line/20032



ਸਾਧ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath nadhar prabhoo sukh paaeiaa ||

In the Company of the Holy, and the Saints' Society, by God's Grace, peace is obtained.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਚੂਕੇ ਮੋਹ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
har kee bhagath rathae bairaagee chookae moh piaasaa ||

हरि की भगति रते बैरागी चूके मोह पिआसा ॥
The renunciates remain absorbed in devotional worship to the Lord; they are rid of emotional attachment and desire.


I wanted to begin with only this couplet, in the hope that others who discuss this topic would seek out the many other shabads where the idea of sangat is mentioned in Guru Granth. If you did that, the discussion could be very rich in insights.

Here is my question. As we continue on our journey to discover our "true identity" do we need sangat? Can this be a journey of the lonesome soul, a traveler without companions?

Sub-questions.

saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Is this wrongly understood in the plural?
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Does this refer only to the company of Waheguru?
bairaagee
Does this imply that in being detached we must be unattached from the company of others on a similar journey?


Please ground your reply in gurbani.

Click to expand...

Conducting a search I found 427 references to sangat. Searching for sadh sangat, there are 163 references. That for me is enough to show me the importance of having good sangat. Sangat is the people you associate with. Sadh sangat refers to those who inspire you and encourage you to progress.

From our lives, each of us can identify with this as commonsense. Your company infleuences you so if you keep good company, you will more likely be a good person. If your friends/family have bad habits, you are more likely to follow. Therefore, Guru Ji is encouraging us remain amongst people that will keep us grounded and on the right path.


For me sangat is anyone who fulfils this criteria. Many of my friends do much voluntry work. Whether they are Sikh or not I count them as my sangat as they are good people who are living for others. I also have many Sikh friends, which is important as together we can do Gurbani vichaar etc to understand Guru Ji's message. Both groups of people help me to walk on the Gurmukh's path :happykaur:

Within Sikhi, the concept of sangat is enshrined in the practice of holding regular divans in Gurdwara and in the concept of langar as food is a great way to bring people together. The theory is, going to the Gurdwara you are more likely to take interest in Gurbani. Sitting at home its very easy to get distracted and disconnected. That is human nature!


Sunmukh Ji,
Thank you for sharing the beautiful shabad. My interpretation of the highlighted lines is that do not listen to those other than your specially chosen Gurmukh sangat (not to ignore them in life but do not be influenced by others) and do not go to places where your sangat are not (eg pubs and clubs). Gurbani is written in couplets so the line above is related to the line about singing God's praises. This will help you find sangat rather than replace the need for sangat. Sangat is mentioned so many times with reference to people that I do not think it is possible to hide away without it. That would then be a sadhu lifestyle which has been criticised by Guru Ji.

SPN is one my greatest forms of sangat!!!
Jasleen kudihug

The closest I've come to real-life sangat has been at the Unitarian Universalist church in my town. Does that count?

I've been unable to make Sikh friends in real-life (that is, beyond the Internet). The couple who have made an effort to include me in gurdwara activities have never spoken about Sikhi past answering my questions on pronunciation.

I'm with Sunmukh -- I find it easier to connect to Waheguru when I'm alone and immersed in simran or studying Gurbani. Guidance from this online sangat is the closest I come to Sikh sadh sangat.

As I've expressed in another post, sometimes I feel depressed because of all the references to "the Company of the Holy" (Sukhmani Sahib, for instance) when I can't really find any in real-life. Makes me think "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is all the holy company I need", but then, I wouldn't be here, or poking my nose in the UU church either.

I'm interested to hear other people's opinions as to what exactly constitutes "sadh sangat".

Ishna

To intervene: There are two levels to the problem about the importance of sangat. I would like to be clear about that. One level is the very personal problem of finding sangat. That is not the intention of this thread. We can start a thread for that, and it would probably be useful.

If we focus on our personal disappointments, or agreeing or disagreeing with this member or the other, then the message of the shabad will be lost. The intended theme of this thread - in Sikh Sikhi Sikhism - is aimed at finding out what Guru ji actually says about the importance of sangat. What is the gurmat understanding? Let's head in the direction of a vichaar of the shabad. Please post shabads with your reply and given an interpretation of it.

To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33133-where-is-my-sangat.html#post136492

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

There are many references to saadhsangat, the sat sangat and sangat in SGGS ji, just as Jasleen Kaur ji points out.

If I understand SPNadmin ji correctly, he (she?) is asking for discussion to be focussed upon whether the company of other like minded people is essential when deliberating upon bani, and thinking about the creator Lord.

I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.

On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:

Without serving the Guru, celestial poise is not obtained. ||7||

​

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However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation.

It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength.

On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people)

meets the True Guru, and obtains the Perfect Supreme Lord God. ||2||34||

​

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Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. It is often very overcomplicated, by unnecessary overlayering, or padding, and duties to perform now well established practices. Possibly this may be due to a deep rooted sense of being dutiful and respectful to Guru ji. This is indeed necessary, as it is to all fellow humans, but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji. IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in SGGS ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent.

The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons. The only permanent sangat is the saadhsangat, or satsangat. It is a congregation of spiritually pure souls. It is the true congregation that any sikh should seek to join, to fall at the feet of the Satguru, in order that one may receive the grace of the Lord. To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). In such a way intuitive awareness of the Lord will arise and the remembrance and kirtan will become automatic, or heart-felt. We then hope we will receive the Lord's grace, but will be happy with any decision whatsoever of His. He leads, we follow. He orders, we heed. Nobody questions the Lord. Hukam razai chalna.

In a way, I am seeing in "Sikh" society a very high level of respect being afforded to Sikhi and its practices, and an increasing level of Guru Sahiban worship or even idolisation , but am not seeing evidence of the same or higher levels of respect being afforded to the creator Lord, yet only He and His court is true and permanant. Gurbani very clearly and repeatedly explains this. There is a most huge meaning to not being "Hindu or Mussalman", if one is seeking to lose complete emotional attachment to worldly affairs. Emotional attachment to Sikhi is no diffferent. Truthful practise is to be encouraged but emotional attachment to practises is not. The Guru of Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Lord. His sangat is not worldly. He sought and sought and sought but no humans could provide satisfactory answers. All his answers were from the Lord. This made him different from hindus and mussalmans, who turned only to pandits, qazis and ketthabas (books), and some did not even follow the ketthabas. It would be an ironic tragedy if Sikhs followed gyanis.granthis/wise persons(ie pandits) but failed to heed advice in SGGS ji. Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement.

I hope I am not coming across in an arrogant and egotistical way, as I seriously do not intend to make out I am any sort of expert, but what I see is incredible levels of focus on the world and much less on the Lord. I hope I have not hurt anybody's feelings, by writing a bit forcefully. For me though, it is very important to try to help people to recognise the simple pragmatic advice of Guru ji. It is very hard for some to see just how simple it is.

Sat Sri Akal

sunmukh said:

I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.

On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:

However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation.

It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength.

Click to expand...

All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.

On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people)

Click to expand...

The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.

Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds.

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But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?

but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent.

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Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life.

The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons.

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Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go.

To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind).

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This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say.

Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement.

Click to expand...

But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.

If we a looking for a gurmat working definition of sangat, and clarification regarding the importance of taking an active role in service to our fellow humans, we can turn to Bhai Gurdas ji. The picture that emerges not one of detaching from our companions in sangat on the soul's journey,

This is only one of several is Vaar 3, pauree 8. There are others.

੯ : ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਲਈ ਸਾਧਨ, ਦਸ਼ਾ ਤੇ ਵਰਤਨ

ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਲੀਐ।

pooraa satigur sati guramoukhi bhaaleeai.

पूरा सतिगुर सति गुरमुखि भालीऐ ।

The perfect Guru is truth incarnate who is realised by becoming gurmukh.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੧


ਪੂਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਲੀਐ।

pooree satigur mati sabadi samhaaleeai.

पूरी सतिगुर मति सबदि सम्हालीऐ ।

The desire of the true Guru is that the Word should be sustained;

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੨

ਦਰਗਹ ਧੋਈਐ ਪਤਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਲੀਐ।

daragah dhoeeai pati haoumai jaaleeai.

दरगह धोईऐ पति हउमै जालीऐ ।

Burning the ego one will get honour in the court of Lord.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੩


ਘਰ ਹੀ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਬੈਸਣਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲੀਐ।

ghar hee jog jougati baisani dharamasaaleeai.

घर ही जोग जुगति बैसणि धरमसालीऐ ।

One should learn the technique of merging in the Lord by considering one’s home as the place for cultivating dharma.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੪


ਪਾਵਨ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਿ ਪਾਲੀਐ।

paavan mokh moukati gur sikhi paaleeai.

पावण मोख मुकति गुर सिखि पालीऐ ।

Liberation for them is certain who abide by the teaching of the Guru.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੫


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ।

antari praym bhagati nadari nihaaleeai.

अंतरि प्रेम भगति नदरि निहालीऐ ।

They having loving devotion in their heart remain jubliant.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੬

ਪਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਇਕ ਛਤ ਖਰੀ ਸੁਖਾਲੀਐ।

patisaahee ik chhati kharee soukhaaleeai.

पतिसाही इक छति खरी सुखालीऐ ।

Such people are emperors full of delight.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੭


ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਹਣ ਘਤਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਘਾਲੀਐ।

paanee peehanu ghati sayvaa ghaaleeai.

पाणी पीहणु घति सेवा घालीऐ ।

Becoming egoless they serve the sangat, congregation, by bringing water, grinding corn etc. for it.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੮


ਮਸਕੀਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਵਤਿ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀਐ ॥੮॥

masakeenee vichi vati chaalay chaaleeai ॥8॥

मसकीनी विचि वति चाले चालीऐ ॥८॥

In humility and joy they lead altogether distinct life.

The "distinct life" of a Sikh of the Guru does not come through separation from others who may be taking their journey with us. Nor does sangat here refer to anything other than those whom we serve and who worship with us.

---------------

To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/sikh-s...tml#post136492 (Where is my sangat?)

SSA

One who is in the companion of truth is in the company of all, in that one find the peace called god.

Is there a difference between sangat and sadh sangat then?

Members might also find the following article relevant: http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart23.htm (True Association -- Saadh Sangat).

Ishna

Ref:SAADHSANGATi

Any SANGATi can not be reffered as SAADH SANGATi for SANGATi to be reffered as SAADH SANGATi ,the presence of SAADH is must.
In Gurbaani in majority references the word refers to GUROO JOTi which at present
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only.
It may pl be noted that in Gurbaani a word can have different meanings depending on context of the Shabad in which the word has been used.


The references to grammar and pronunciation have been removed, as per earlier requests, warnings and explanations. spnadmin

1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਸੁਨੀ ਇਹ ਸੋਇ ॥
khojath khojath sunee eih soe ||
खोजत खोजत सुनी इह सोइ ॥
By searching and seeking, I have heard this news


1. Ang 373 Line 17 Raag Asa: Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
saadhhasangath bin thariou n koe ||
साधसंगति बिनु तरिओ न कोइ ॥
that without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, no one swims across

The question raised at the beginning of the thread is "Why go it alone?

T. Singh at http://www.gurbani.org has this to say. These are excerpts because he has specifically requested that entire articles not be copied and pasted.

First of all he likens sadhsangat to the idea of "true association."

I have searched my mind and body, through and through. How can
I meet my Darling Beloved God, O my mother? Joining the Satsangat,
the True Association, I ask about the Path to God. In
that Congregation, God abides (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 94). Coming into contact
with the philosophers’ stone, copper is changed; that copper is
transformed into gold. In the society of godly souls, Kabeer is
changed; that Kabeer is transformed into God (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1158).


The metaphor of the sandalwood tree is helpful.

The value of sandalwood lies in its fragrance that spreads out far and wide.[/B] The aroma of sandalwood is so sublime that the lowly trees growing near sandalwood also become fragrant just like it. ....


It is sangat that helps us to overcome our attachments and ego.

* ਚੰਦਨ ਵਾਸੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਵੇੜੀ ਕਿਵ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ ਕਾਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਕਰਾਰਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਛੇਦਿ ਛੇਦਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੩॥: Chandhan vaas bhuiangam verree kiv mileeai chandhan leejai || Kaadhi kharrag gur giaan karaaraa bikh shedi shedi rasu peejai ||3||: Drawing out the mighty sword of the God's spiritual wisdom, I slaughter and kill the poisonous snake (of Maya's delusion), and drink in the Sweet Nectar of Divine Name ||3|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1324).

...
* ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਉ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ਕੀਆ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਮਨਿ ਪਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥: Saadhsangat kaou vaariaa jeeou keeaa kurabaan. Jis te sojhee mani paee miliaa purakh sujaan: I am devoted to the Saadhsangat, the Company of the Holy; I sacrifice my soul to them. Through them, understanding (ਸੂਝ) has entered my mind, and I have met the All-knowing God (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 43).

....
T. Singh goes on to define sadhsangat.

Various expressions exist that are virtually synonymous to Saadh-Sangat. Such expressions include Good Friendship, Noble Friendship, Company of the True and the Wise, Inner Communion, Abidance in the Self, Satsang, Gurmukh Sang, Saadhoo Sang, Sant Sang, Satsangat, Sachee Sangat, Gur Sangat, Uttam Sangat, Saadh Sabhaa, Daivee Sangat, Sant Mandlee, True Association, Company of the Awakened, Company of the Enlightened beings, Company of the True Devotees, Company of the Holy, Company of the God-centered, Company of the Godly or God-Conscious, Company of the God-faced, Company of the Naam-immersed, Holy Congregation, Holy Assembly, Holy Association, Company of the Truth, Company of Saintly Souls, Company of the Spiritual Beings, Company of the Good Association, etc.
...
Then he goes on to describe the attributes of sadhsangat

...the Gurbani also provides us with numerous redemptive attributes of Saadh Sangat. A few of these divine attributes are summarized as follows. For example, in the True Association:

* The joy of God's Kirtan is obtained (1204).
* Prema-Bhagti or loving devotion of God wells up (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 384).
* One is rid of false ego (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1181).
* God's Name tastes sweet (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 272).
* God's Name is churned (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 587)
* The treasure of Naam is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* Hari-Ras or God's elixir is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 374).
* Practice of Naam-Simran or God's meditation becomes easy (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 262).
* The God's Name abides in the mind (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1417).
* Spiritual awakening takes place (215).
* Mind's filth is removed (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 520).
* Mind becomes calm and stable (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* Fear and doubts depart (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 193).
* One gets to drink Amrit or Lord's Name Nectar (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 299).
* One become free of sinful reactions (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* Five vices are restrained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* The sense of duality vanish (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 254).
* Freedom from death and birth is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1146).
* Discriminating intellect and spiritual wisdom are attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 377).
* Evil-mindedness departs (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 503).
* God's Path is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1122).
* One learns to serve (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1182).
* Eternal happiness and bliss is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* Freedom from sorrows is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 461).
* All places of pilgrimage and ablution are realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 965).
* The true Heaven is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 742).
* Faith becomes strong (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 981).
* Animosity departs (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 271).
* True friends, intimates and helpers are found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 453).
* "Stable Abode" is found (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1146).
* The state of desirelessness is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 913).
* Contentment is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 889).
* Mental peace is attained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 256).
* Sinners become Pure and Accepted (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 861).
* Mortal becomes Beauteous, Wise and Valiant (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 531).
* The stage of absorption in devotion is attained (217).
* Search for God becomes priority and reality (848).
* Understanding of God's inexpressible gospel is realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 997).
* Darkness of ignorance is dispelled and salvation is obtained (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 675).
* Kundilini is awakened (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 1402).
* God or the real Self is Realized (Sri Guru Granth Sahib 607).

....
And he continues with an outline of how to recognize Satsang

Satsang has more than one form. For example, to keep the presence of the Satguru (True Guru, Self, God, etc.) in the mind is a Satsang in itself. A congregation assembled to hear Spiritual talk or chanting is also a Satsang. To hear Spiritual teachings is also referred to as Satsang. Other forms of Satsang may include Kirtan in the company of true devotees, discussing or deliberating spiritual teachings, thinking and contemplating on such spiritual teachings, meditational worship of God, reflecting on the Shabad, etc. The highest form of the Satsang is Soul's linking with the Shabad or Naam. In summary, all forms of Satsang can be summed up as follows:


http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart23.htm

Do we get any insights from these passages in answer to the quesiton, " Why go it alone?"

Ref.SAADHSANGATi

It would be worthwnile to consider ASTAPADI No7 of SUKHMANI in SGGS ji.pp271-272.This ASTAPADI encompasses the best answer to the question in consideration'

SALOKu: AGAM AGAADHi PARBRAHMu SOE,JO Jo KAHE Su MUKTAA HOE
SUNi MEETA NANAKu BINWANTAA,SAADH JANAA KEE ACHARAJ KATHAA

This ASTAPADI is exclusively related to SAADH and SAADHSANGATi

Prakash.S.Bagga

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Satsang has more than one form. For example, to keep the presence of the Satguru (True Guru, Self, God, etc.) in the mind is a Satsang in itself. A congregation assembled to hear Spiritual talk or chanting is also a Satsang. To hear Spiritual teachings is also referred to as Satsang. Other forms of Satsang may include Kirtan in the company of true devotees, discussing or deliberating spiritual teachings, thinking and contemplating on such spiritual teachings, meditational worship of God, reflecting on the Shabad, etc. The highest form of the Satsang is Soul's linking with the Shabad or Naam.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this SPNadmin ji.

I'm pleased I am not out on a limb. At least there is one other person who recognises the linking of the soul with the shabd is a form of satsang.

" Why go it alone?"

Click to expand...

No-one has to go it alone. It is of immense value to discuss one's understanding and join in congregational worsship.

However, we come into the world on our own, and we leave on our own. I don't think Gurbani supports particular sangats as Gods "chosen people", who by virtue of associating with one form of sangat will automatically be selected.
Karma is individual. It is not associated with whole bodies of people.
What an individual does and engages in is what counts. After that there is also the concept of God's grace. Combined it becomes immaterial whether an individual sits with a physical sangat or not. As long as the individual is remembering God and seeking to join the "saadhsanghat" (in a spiritual sense) he/she will uplift him/her self and also have an effect on others around him/her self.

Going it alone, does have benefits. One knows oneself. If one reflects upon Gurbani, or even on just God, one attains an understanding which is "untainted" with others opinions. It is the understanding God gives one, and not the understanding of another person. It is pure Hukam. God cannot mislead. If one cannot trust God to provide a true understanding then there is no need to bother at all.

Sat Sri Akal

SSA,
On the path of spirtuality, its difficult to reach to the destination without sadh sangat.
Lets put it as floowings

1. Worship of god is very personal and has to be performed by the one personally, lonely.
2. Worship can not be perfomed without love (prem). Gurbani referes to this love as "Bhao".
3. The Bhao= love can not be produced without sadh sangat. This is what gurbani states.

swD sMgiq ibnw Bwau nhI aUpjY Bwv ibnu Bgiq nhI hoie qyrI ] khY rivdwsu iek bynqI hir isau pYj rwKhu rwjw rwm myrI ]2]2] {pMnw 694}
Gurbani says that without sadh sangat "bhao" is not produced and without bhao ( love) the worship can not be done, hence sadh sangat is a basic need of the worship.The importance of sadh sangat is very clear from the above lines of Gurbani.
Roopsidhu

Sangat (a group of people) can inspire you and motivates you in the task u have taken up.

Ultimately it is you who have to find the truth. It is the journey that count. The journey is always walked alone. No one can help you go there.

Most of the religions encourage one to seek sangat. The mistake people in the sangat makes they only promote their own sangat. The TRUTH is not one religion’s property.

Ishna ask good question, Sure the people in the Unitatrian Church is sangat too. You can learn from them or any one. You can even learn from the thieves if you are willing to learn. But the journey is going to be alone. Only one thing will be with you is NAAM word.

Shabad hai guru,guru hai bani. It is not the physical guru. It is you who have to free your self from the maze you have created by your self. Here I don’t mean you it is not personal.

Why people promote their sangat? Many believe is we bring new people into their group the Lord will be happy with them n bless them for the good deed. Others want to some one t o bring into their sangat is for power so that can count on your support in case they need your support to get elected.


Roopsidhu:

Why God need our worship? What you are saying if one live alone he can not have bhao?
I don’t think God want us to worship him.

SEEKER3KJi,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
I think what you have described has the reference of present state of affairs.Inthis context you may be right.But there is another view of situation in the reference of SAADHSANGATi being reffered in Gurbaani.
For a moment you think what is need for a child to be sent to school and thereafter for higher education.Can any child can gain knowledge of his own?.With Gurbaani we have relationship of GUROO-SIKHu .If you think this context you may have some different view about the concept of SAADHSANGATi in Gurbaani.
Otherwise your views hold good.
With best wishes ,
Prakash.S.Bagga

sunmukh ji

When you word your insight in these terms

don't think Gurbani supports particular sangats as Gods "chosen people", who by virtue of associating with one form of sangat will automatically be selected.

Click to expand...

Then you have moved a distance from your earlier statements. Nothing wrong with that, if it means that clarification of an original point is concerned.

IMHO where I see a problem is this. A person may state that sangats they have contact with have not helped them spiritually. That person's experiences cannot be generalized to vichaar of the meaning of sadh sangat as it is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or in terms of its importance to spiritual growth and development.


That is a frequent complaint people have - I cannot find sangat, therefore, Guru Nanak must have meant that there is no worthy sangat other than the sangat of Naam. People are temporal therefore only the eternal Naam is truly sangat. Guru Nanak did not say that.

REf: SAADHSANGATi

SAADHSANGATi has two aspects .One is SPRITUAL where one has to travel alone.Other aspect is SOCIAL where collective efforts are directed in spreading the true message of Gurbaani words.Now How we are succesful in promoting the true message of Gurbaani Words it is different matter .But there is defininitely a Social outlook invilved in the concept of SAADHSANGATi.

In this respect it important to understand the SATSANGATi has been categorically defined in Gurbaani.Similarly there is reference of SANTSANGATi.So all these references have relevent meanings .these must be understood more carefully before any conclusion can be drawn for the question under consideration

Prakash.S.Bagga