Creation And Consonance

Harry Haller · Aug 23, 2011

Gurfatehji

Ambersariaji kindly wrote this on a thread, I liked its content hugely, and thinking it worthy of discussion have posted it with my questions,

Creator/creation really does not care if you are Khalsa or not does creation care about anything?
Creator just creates and does not watch. Creator/creation does have rules and limits which are ever changing in terms of consonance.Is the creator even aware of me then?
So there are three aspects to living in consonance,
Living in consonance within and with yourself: This is the peace you have whereby if you are living in consonance with yourself, your outside is the same as your inside. That is an objective for Khalsa for sure but also of great value if you are going to achieve piece of mind, body and mind in synch, so on.
Creator and creation really does not care what you do here. You have been given options to choose from all moments in your life.Although this is extremely unabrahamic, which I like, it also leaves me feeling a bit 'lonely'
.Living in consonance with others of same species: Creation and creator when introduces you into your species as a son or daughter for humans, it just equips you with basics tool set for survival and growth but provides you the embedded ability and flexibility to be as you want to be.Does the creator not want me to be anything, or have I found myself when I want the same as the creator?
Creation and creator again are not deeply concerned if a species decides to destroy itself, become bad or becomes good.
Creator/creation does like the species to live to their fullest potential, any species that does so has great future in general.
Creator/creation does not create all good or all bad acts focused people at the time one is created.
Each however has the flexibility and potential to do more good or more bad acts.
Creator/creation really does not care for interactions within a species and members thereof. Creator/creation has embedded enough communal attributes for a species to manage its internal affairs.Then the creator judges the rapist and the saint equally? or does the creator not judge?
Species can manage it so where what was bad at one time may be good at another time and vice versa.
Not only that, within groups in the species, good or bad may be different within different groups.
Conflict resolutions within species are not for the creator/creation to manage. The species needs to do so in its own wisdom and capabilities.In sikhism there are logically no miracles, no dazzling visions, this also implies prayer, say for a dying relative, has no use other than comforting all concerned
There will be instances where in spite of all this a species or groups within species may appear or disappear temporarily in observable and limited time horizons we humans (or a given species) know of and where we are.
Creator/creation which once created a species and groups within can always do so again at a place, planet or a star of its choosing. So in grand scheme of things we kind of matter some but not a whole lot.
Living in consonance with rest of creation: Now this is where the creator/creation has keen interest. When creator/creation creates a mosaic at a given moon, planet, star, galaxy, it has a global view of things as well as a local view. For example a local view of planet earth. So what is the creator/creation looking for,
Each species to live in consonance with others.
It is not a hard boundary but an ever changing one.
Minor violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Diseases due to poor sanitation.
Diseases due to excessive use of antibiotics
Diseases due to animal farming and meat production poor conditions
Excessive use of chemicals in farming, etc.
There is a large list of such.
Major violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Flooding due to deforestation
Flooding due to wrong dams located in wrong locations.
Segmented population decimation not respecting local forces like earth quake zones, living in areas subject to possible sunamis, living in areas prone to monsoon rain and associated flooding, etc.
Can we know all the dangers, the answer is no. But we can live better if we use what we know and as the knowledge grows.
There is a large list of such.
Catastrophic violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Incurable diseases
For whatever reasons of eating habits, living habits, thinking habits, treating other species the wrong way, etc.
Global Warming
If our wisdom is right, and we forecast an ice age because of it, none should be surprised to see such affects over time
Many more items can be ascertained
There is also an external entity which may be difficult to ascertain or plan against,
Astroids hitting the earth
Etc.
However the creator/creation has the capacity to recreate if so choosen, many earths and many species including our own in places we have not thought of or will never think of.

I think this is an excellent piece of writing, I do not disagree with any of it, however if clarification of my points could be made, that would be great, I have to confess that the creator as described here, on the whole is my kind of creator!, but, who then is the voice in my head, because that voice cares for sure what I do, and how I interact

Ambarsaria · Aug 23, 2011

Harry Haller ji some comments on your red highlighted text below,

harry haller said:
Gurfatehji

Ambersariaji kindly wrote this on a thread, I liked its content hugely, and thinking it worthy of discussion have posted it with my questions,

Creator/creation really does not care if you are Khalsa or not does creation care about anything?
 Harry Haller ji let us look at it this way. We and other members at spn and billions more are on this planet which is part of total creation. What are the chances that if we as a species were not in general consonance with creation around that we will be here? I will say ZERO. So what is the key. Consonance! Creation only cares about the consonance once one is created. More over it is important to note that no matter how we close our eyes and keep chanting various things it may not matter an iota. Our actions as recorded by others in creation (the {censored}roaches, the mice, the rabbits, the dogs, the parrots, the lions, the rivers, the sun , etc. or basically all that is around) are not in line, there will be consequences personal on a short term and species on a longer term basis.

So basically creation cares as much as you care about creation all around, the focus is recognition and living in consonance of such and it is a measure of such caring. The joy all around abounds and is only limited by our imagination,

Creator just creates and does not watch. Creator/creation does have rules and limits which are ever changing in terms of consonance.Is the creator even aware of me then?

 Creator and creation is always aware through checks and balances. You don’t brush your teeth for a month, eat plenty of sugars/chocolate, creation will give you a cavity. So creator and creation is always aware it is just the manifestations or give me a sign part that one needs to be in tune with to recognize.

Creator is not going to speak to you in the washroom and say Sonny boy, you did not brush today so I am not going to let you out of the washroom or let you eat Aaloo Paratha till you do that!

So there are three aspects to living in consonance,
Living in consonance within and with yourself: This is the peace you have whereby if you are living in consonance with yourself, your outside is the same as your inside. That is an objective for Khalsa for sure but also of great value if you are going to achieve piece of mind, body and mind in synch, so on.
Creator and creation really does not care what you do here. You have been given options to choose from all moments in your life.Although this is extremely unabrahamic, which I like, it also leaves me feeling a bit 'lonely'.

 Why lonely! Isn’t there enough creation around you! Are you perhaps too focused on a so-called big guy in the sky to wink or wince when you do good or bad. Loneliness is perhaps being stranded on the moon with less of life to interact with!

Living in consonance with others of same species: Creation and creator when introduces you into your species as a son or daughter for humans, it just equips you with basics tool set for survival and growth but provides you the embedded ability and flexibility to be as you want to be.Does the creator not want me to be anything,

 Harry Haller ji if the creator and creation not want you to be who you are there would have been no conception or a possible mis-carriage before birth. Of course creation sees you as a wonderful member of the species. World is your Oyster to achieve while still being in consonance with creation.

or have I found myself when I want the same as the creator?

 I repeat, world is your Oyster to achieve while still being in consonance with creation! This includes understanding consonance, for ever lasting happiness, in the face of traditional sad and good times.

Creation and creator again are not deeply concerned if a species decides to destroy itself, become bad or becomes good.
Creator/creation does like the species to live to their fullest potential, any species that does so has great future in general.
Creator/creation does not create all good or all bad acts focused people at the time one is created.
Each however has the flexibility and potential to do more good or more bad acts.
Creator/creation really does not care for interactions within a species and members thereof. Creator/creation has embedded enough communal attributes for a species to manage its internal affairs.Then the creator judges the rapist and the saint equally? or does the creator not judge?

 Creator does not judge (remember the big Guy/Girl in the sky watching your every move)! The creation including our own species has the ability and wherewithal’s to do so, and all the time. Every moment in our life the actions have reactions. We get so used to filter out the routine and forget that there was perhaps ongoing judgment all the time from our own species and creation around. I can be swimming and try to breathe like a fish, what will be the judgment, drowning. I punch some one, what will be the outcome! They will punch back or if it was Mahatma Gandhi, he will show me the other cheek, Good for me!

Species can manage it so where what was bad at one time may be good at another time and vice versa.
Not only that, within groups in the species, good or bad may be different within different groups.
Conflict resolutions within species are not for the creator/creation to manage. The species needs to do so in its own wisdom and capabilities.In sikhism there are logically no miracles, no dazzling visions,

 Harry Haller ji there are lot of things that happen that we have not discerned the ability to understand. It goes from micro elements or life forms (say Aids virus), to great earthquakes and their timing, and so on. One can classify such as miracles but in the scheme of things this is all part of creation.

this also implies prayer, say for a dying relative, has no use other than comforting all concerned

 Harry Haller ji this was also touched in another thread. My view having experienced very near, dear personal losses is that we need to recognize the beingness of ourselves and the deceased. There are two prayers that one can think of,

Within self and this really is to be able to cope with your internal turmoil. Saying or wishing good even imaginary has a soothing effect. So that is perhaps the only impact from my experience.

Praying in a group/family/others has the effect of above as well perhaps creation recognition effect. Many show up for good and few show up for others. In as much if it helps the species define good and other it is beneficial. In many ways it can effect people in good ways.

Death really is a transformation and our transformation while living and what becomes after is continuous. At a very crass level, how can anyone be sure that what they are eating is not an element or chemical from a person dead from long ago, or from other life forms and even refuse. So once one recognizes that the walls of our cognition of what is are little artificial, life can become simpler.

There will be instances where in spite of all this a species or groups within species may appear or disappear temporarily in observable and limited time horizons we humans (or a given species) know of and where we are.
Creator/creation which once created a species and groups within can always do so again at a place, planet or a star of its choosing. So in grand scheme of things we kind of matter some but not a whole lot.
Living in consonance with rest of creation: Now this is where the creator/creation has keen interest. When creator/creation creates a mosaic at a given moon, planet, star, galaxy, it has a global view of things as well as a local view. For example a local view of planet earth. So what is the creator/creation looking for,
Each species to live in consonance with others.
It is not a hard boundary but an ever changing one.
Minor violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Diseases due to poor sanitation.
Diseases due to excessive use of antibiotics
Diseases due to animal farming and meat production poor conditions
Excessive use of chemicals in farming, etc.
There is a large list of such.
Major violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Flooding due to deforestation
Flooding due to wrong dams located in wrong locations.
Segmented population decimation not respecting local forces like earth quake zones, living in areas subject to possible sunamis, living in areas prone to monsoon rain and associated flooding, etc.
Can we know all the dangers, the answer is no. But we can live better if we use what we know and as the knowledge grows.
There is a large list of such.
Catastrophic violations of such consonance may lead to such things as,
Incurable diseases
For whatever reasons of eating habits, living habits, thinking habits, treating other species the wrong way, etc.
Global Warming
If our wisdom is right, and we forecast an ice age because of it, none should be surprised to see such affects over time
Many more items can be ascertained
There is also an external entity which may be difficult to ascertain or plan against,
Astroids hitting the earth
Etc.
However the creator/creation has the capacity to recreate if so choosen, many earths and many species including our own in places we have not thought of or will never think of.

I think this is an excellent piece of writing, I do not disagree with any of it, however if clarification of my points could be made, that would be great, I have to confess that the creator as described here, on the whole is my kind of creator!, but, who then is the voice in my head, because that voice cares for sure what I do, and how I interact

Thanks for starting the thread.

Sat Sri Akal.

Harry Haller · Aug 3, 2024

Many thanks Ambersariaji for clarification, I read it aloud in bed last night with my wife, dan, alfie and virgil!

You answered every question perfectly, at one point I looked up to find the two dogs, cat, and wife all nodding intently,

You have now defined creator for me in a way that I can understand, but that does not explain the voice in my head, nor the voice that drives me towards aloo prontha, one clearly is Gurmukh, and other clearly is manmukh. How does creator fit in with this, is one voice creator given, are both voices creator given? They are all you, you will wish to do different things depending on your mood and outlook, some of those things will be in consonance, some will not be, the ones that are not, will have consequences, some huge, some small

Creator creation sounds like a lifeforce, a thread of truth wrapped round the whole world, the voices are clearly choices, different choices, but then who is me? is me the desire to lose myself in a sea of aloo prontha, is me the helper, the carer. They are all me, I have the ability to be anyone, everyone?, as long as I follow the rules and respect consonance? yes

I also had a long chat with my dear wife about the way we interact with people, I noted that we both seemed to concentrate more on our thoughts than on our actions, having a moral code seems to be more important than having a moral action code, if i may explain, we both try and do good, but we are not over concerned if that action is noted or recorded,. should we be? is that part of consonance? As already explained the action is recorded by every living thing you interact with, give yourself the same respect and judgement that you would give others, how would you feel about someone whose thoughts were pure, but whose actions were indifferent, actions should mirror thoughts, but on the whole a bad action is worse than a bad thought, and a good action is better than a good thought, what you are intimating is is it ok to have bad actions, or indifferent actions and good thoughts, no, it is not, not for me anyway

After some debate, we both realised that our actions are hugely more important than our thoughts, we both feel similar, we are who we are, and deep down, I think we are both reasonably nice people, but there is no interest in either of us whether this is noted by creation or not, in fact, the less people know about our moral code, the better I feel, as we have both been used and manipulated in the past by others to quite a hefty financial tune that has left us in the financial mess we are currently in. So another question is, in the whole creator/consonance what is more important, what you do?, or what you think? for consonance, what you do, for yourself, what you think

If I can resolve these minor issues, I feel I am ready to move up a step, thank you

I cannot believe how lazy I have become with regard to myself, I find answering other peoples issues much easier than answering my own, so, I did, this whole concept now makes sense to me about creation, creator, and my role in all of it, not only for others, but for myself, ok STEP 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, thanks for pointing me in the right direction Ambersariaji, and thanks for allowing me the time to work the last bits out for myself

Creation And Consonance

Harry Haller

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaŉkār

Harry Haller

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