Yogism What Are Your Thoughts On Kundalini And Yogi Bhajan

This is to continue the debate that has hijacked another thread,

posted by Chazji

Satnaam Harry Ji,

I cannot judge a person based on what some of his followers decide to put on websites or what they decide to do with links that direct to their businesses. That is not Yogi Ji, and he is also not here today to do anything about it.

But i will stand up for the many that stand by him and feel like their life has been changed for the better due to the love and direction that Yogi bhajan passed onto them. that is the true wealth of a person.

Gurbani mentions yoga many times: 211

thoo(n) gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||
By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||

har ras jin jan chaakhiaa ||
Those who taste the sublime essence of the Lord
thaa kee thrisanaa laathheeaa ||2||
have their thirst quenched. ||2||


So either Guru Ji is confused himself, or he's confusing us all for some reason or another? you decide.

Just like lucky Ji said..there is a difference between a ritualistic aproach and a pro-active approach that is backed by the love and thirst for gods presense, sat upon the seeds laid by charity, sharing, hard honest work compassion, forgiveness and love. which is why Gurbani mentions this with reference to blind practices.

I like to take the proactive approach and it serves me well for 'anything' i do in life now...otherwise everything we do is just a ritual. so lets keep planting the seeds...and Guru Ji will surely point us in the direction we need to go next.

God bless.

posted by linzerji


I don't have any problem with his business ventures accept when he comercializes Sikhi like using the Darbar Sahib like a logo,Ie. Golden Temple foods, passages of the S.G.G.S as mantra. It figures that you'd like Snatam Kaur as well. Do you approve of them celebrating the birthday of Guru Nanak on the banks of the sacred Ganges?http://www.11-11-11yoga.com/

posted by Ishnaji


Snatam Kaur has a lovely voice, I listen to her Sohila at night sometimes. No need to bring her into the discussion. Perhaps the discussion about 3HO should be had in the 3HO thread?


My apologies to the OP for contributing to talking the thread away from discussion of the 5ks.

posted by chazji



Quote:

Originally Posted by linzer
I don't have any problem with his business ventures accept when he comercializes Sikhi like using the Darbar Sahib like a logo,Ie. Golden Temple foods, passages of the S.G.G.S as mantra. It figures that you'd like Snatam Kaur as well. Do you approve of them celebrating the birthday of Guru Nanak on the banks of the sacred Ganges?http://www.11-11-11yoga.com/

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God exists everywhere....i or anyone can celebrate Guru Ji birthday amnywhere...i do not see your point.

And the most sacred place to celebrate Guru Ji's birthday is in your heart, where he dwells. so in the physical realm it doest matter where you are...you could be on the moon, sat on a loo, or on a beach...he's with you at all times.

God bless all.

posted by chazji

Originally Posted by Ishna
Snatam Kaur has a lovely voice, I listen to her Sohila at night sometimes. No need to bring her into the discussion. Perhaps the discussion about 3HO should be had in the 3HO thread?

My apologies to the OP for contributing to talking the thread away from discussion of the 5ks.

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Dear Ishna Ji,

She was bought into the equation to highlight the goodness that came out of Yogi Ji journey to the west.
Not all, but many of the people he inspired, whether they became Sikh or not, are travelling the world spreading the message of peace and love.
you dont need ism's of religion to do that.

My deepest appologoes also for taking this thread into a different direction. By all means a new thread would probably be best.

Just remember, the image of sikhi can be tarnished very easily by others by looking at the behaviour of some of the followers...but that doesnt meant the message of sikhi is impure.

The same goes for what he tried to do, and for many succeeded i.e. in uplifting them out of the mess they were in (spiritually)

god bless all and the sangat

Just a few words here, not any direct reply to any thread as all seem to barking up their own trees.

We are not behaving in any gurmat manner by praising or criticising the little we know.
Frankly, I don't have anything bad to say about anyone.
If someone just does 1 thing of good value compared to the other 99 out of 100 considered as bad or not too good- Then we still don't accept the person due to it being a 1% statistic.This is human nature.
But, as sikhs, we should accept ALL-' Na koi bairi nai Beganna' In the true gurmat manner this little 1% is what we should learn from this individual. This liitle 1% action is the one of true value that can inspire us all. In the same way we should all carry out true actions to inspire others and to maintain the whole concept of truthful living.


If we are going to argue and judge over the not true 99%, then we have failed!!!

Luckyji

As an independent society, 3HO, Yogi Bhajan and Kundalini Yoga, I have no problem with, they have done much good, they have helped many people, I concede all that.

But then one could say the same about all the Deras across India.

Today, we have Yogi Bhajan's photo above the SGGS, and Baba Sri Chand statues being bowed to, We have men dressing up as Guru Gobind Singhji and having elaborate Amrit ceremonies, We have Baba's taking money of simple people and promising them the world, at what point do you, as a Sikh, stand up and say, 'this is not within what I know to be Gurmutt'?

Life is a judgement game, every day we judge, its called having an opinion. We try and make our opinions to the best of our ability, based on the knowledge we have,

It is hard to read the 3HO website without feeling that the Yogi is bigger than Sikhism, that the Yogi is in fact Sikhism! , it was the Yogi that gave us Singh/Kaur, not the tenth master, this is is misinformation, the huge Shiva at the top of the website, no mention of the word 'Sikh' at all, anyone would be forgiven for thinking Sikhism is an offshoot of 3HO!

I have no problem with any of this, hey live and let live, but younger readers should be aware that 3HO Sikhism stands alone from what I call Sikhism, they are not the same, they do not share the same ideals, or the same goals, its just another new age hippy movement that has stolen our heritage and presented it for one mission only, money.

I think it's fine! I look at is as a recreation still.. because Yoga is actually really good for you. tbh I was more shocked when I read that people eat meat than this, I even told some of my friends that people say Sikhs (Amritdhari) can eat meat and they were quite surprised!

I agree with what you say Harry ji, there are some things that come across as distasteful. I mean this picture of him above the Guru Granth Sahib ji, I don't really know or can confirm if this still exists in New Mexico. Maybe sikhnet could confirm for us?

But you wll not find me any where near those grounds of new Mexico from what I have heard. I think sometimes we try to ignore such people and issues, but it is not always that easy to simply ignore and stay shut about it.

Personally, I do find that I ignore most of the issues and people that I may not agree with, and sometimes this attitude of mine may come across as ignorance in my posts.-I do apologise for any false interpretations or misleading that may be perceived.

Sometimes if ignored well enough by the majority, these cults and deras seem to fade away and we find they may sometimes re-emerge in a different disguise.
But really, what should we do ?-
-should we just ignore them and give them no recognition or should we fight back and give them recognition ?
-It's not always an easy choice, sometimes we have to do a little of both. I mean we boost their egos once they know that we are aware of them, even if we are totally against them.
Some of these sick people don't care that the majority may be against them but they just care about being 'on the scene.'
This puts them in the same category as warlords, paedophiles and rapists who are all aware of their wrong actions but they just don't give a s***.

As true sikhs, we as a society don't have the same cohesion as what Guru Gobind Singh Ji expected from us.-He expected us to stand and fight against any such tyrants and beings that stood in the way of God and truth.
If there was this 'fear factor' visible among us sikhs, then these lowlifes would simply not even have the guts to try and run their shows.

All in all, I can't say much about 3HO. Yes, they have done a good job in getting sikhism recognised in the west, even the president knows what sikhs stand for, thanks to them.
But, then comes the attached money,greed and other non-gurmat practices, which don't do them any favours.
However, on the whole when we start to categorise under the headings of 'damage done to whole of sikhism' and 'favours done to whole of sikhism', then we do find that on the whole they have probably done much more favours rather than damage.
In this sense, compared to beings that do complete damage, is why I tend to ignore their unsuitable practices.

So Harryji, I totally agree with your attitude towards any groups that bring sikhism into disrepute.
However, I like to point out that you seem to be associating 'kundalini' with just 3HO and Yogi Bhajan, when it is something that they have actually grabbed and associated with themselves, just as they have associated sikhism and Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
But, because we understand Guru Granth Sahib Ji on it's own without any association then we don't view it from their angle. This same technique should be applied to 'kundalini' as it has it's own category long before these lot came along.
So, I actually understand and have some knowledge of 'kundalini' from a completely different angle NOT associated with 3HO yoga.- With this understanding, the bani references will seem more clear cut when mentioning acts of yoga, chakras, kundalini rising...etc...

You will then realise that such an energy may exist within us but it can rise(as they say) without any yoga or special breathing. Remember all of creation is made up of lots of different energies in one form or other- the complete universe is 'matter' this matter all contains molecules that all vary in 'energy'. Within us there are so many energies and vibrations that we have not even defined them all as yet and same goes for our surroundings.- With this little knowledge is why I can accept that there may be a so called 'kundalini'.

I won't go into too much detail about the universe and all the different energies, but I hope the little that I have given can explain why the Gurus didn't deny such energies but they did deny the empty dedicated practices that people babbled about.

Simply put, if attaining a state of naam or bliss with creation requires a rising of such an energy called 'kundalini', then this rising can be attained by being and living the word of the shabad and gurbani and NOT by special postural breathing.
-This is ALL that one needs to know about the so called 'kundalini'.

So, you can see Harry ji, why I don't associate 'kundalini' with 3HO, as it has been in existence long before they were.

Waheguru

I don't know about The 3HO gurdwara in New Mexico but the ones I've been to here in Mexico always have the photo of YB. One time they even projected a video of YB above the S.G.G.S. I was annoyed in the extreme.
One of the other major problems I have is that they promote superstitious beliefs ie. the age of aquarius, numerology, repeating mantras (stolen from the S.G.G.S.)for specific results, prosperity, health etc.
One of the the things that attracted me to Sikhi in the first place was the rejection of supestition,astrology,etc. Here in Mexico superstitious beliefs are rampant. My Wife had a friend from College whose father was/is a Brujo(witch).He was able to buy a new car every year and send his kid to college. Nice work if you can get it I guess. My point is that these superstious trappings really send the wrong message to people who are already susceptible.
My wife and I are trying to inform people about Sikhi by having Gurdwara about once a month. We're learning Gurmat Sangeet. We've published pamphlets in spanish that we downloaded from Sikh Coalition.
The message of the Gurus is really needed here (everywhere that is) so we want people to find it without a lot of unnecessary additions. That's where the problem of 3HO comes in. One time, I invited someone who was famliar with kundalini yoga to gurdwara and she asked "what are the benefits". I think she was waiting for me to say it will open your third eye or something. When I told her it was about listening to kirtan and explained that it was the teaching of the Gurus in musical form and about reading from the S.G.G.S. etc. She was disappointed. Again she asked "so it doesn't have any specific effects. I told her that it could possibly make her a better person If she did it enough but she wasn't impressed and didn't show up.
I think they give the wrong image of what Sikhi is, so trying to work against that is tough. I guess no one ever told me it would be easy either

You will then realise that such an energy may exist within us but it can rise(as they say) without any yoga or special breathing. Remember all of creation is made up of lots of different energies in one form or other- the complete universe is 'matter' this matter all contains molecules that all vary in 'energy'. Within us there are so many energies and vibrations that we have not even defined them all as yet and same goes for our surroundings.- With this little knowledge is why I can accept that there may be a so called 'kundalini'.

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Thank you Luckyji,

However, my own opinion is that there are a myriad of energies and chakras, almost as many as there are Gods. Sikhism cut through all these with the concept of 'one'. One God, One Creator, One energy. I accept that Kundalini was around long before 3HO, but it is a Vedic concept, not a Sikh one. It is mentioned sparingly in the SGGS, as I have already quoted, and it is hard to disagree with the blatant and definitive statement that it is an empty hypocritical practice, but this is what the SGGS states. Naam does not require a kundalini, any more than it requires fasts, sacrifices, rituals or meditation. Sure all these things can be fun, and be used as innner cleaning techniques, but are they actually required to gain a state of Naam, in my opinion , No

The message of the Gurus is really needed here (everywhere that is) so we want people to find it without a lot of unnecessary additions. That's where the problem of 3HO comes in. One time, I invited someone who was famliar with kundalini yoga to gurdwara and she asked "what are the benefits". I think she was waiting for me to say it will open your third eye or something.

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Hahaha to each one his own. But most people would just have a quick fix than a life changing event.

When I told her it was about listening to kirtan and explained that it was the teaching of the Gurus in musical form and about reading from the S.G.G.S. etc. She was disappointed. Again she asked "so it doesn't have any specific effects. I told her that it could possibly make her a better person If she did it enough but she wasn't impressed and didn't show up.

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You could have told her it was food for thought, but that wouldn't interest them either. It is very hard to 'sell' the idea of liberation

I think they give the wrong image of what Sikhi is, so trying to work against that is tough. I guess no one ever told me it would be easy either<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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That's what I don't like. Most of their talks have some small tid bit that they give away, which is not part of Sikhi. There is rampant mixing up of beliefs.

harry haller said:

Thank you Luckyji, <?"urn:fficeffice" />

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harry haller said:

However, my own opinion is that there are a myriad of energies and chakras,
Seven chakras to be precise:
sur nar sapath samudhr kia dhhaariou thribhavan jaas ||
He created the gods, human beings and the seven seas; He established the three worlds.
Therefore the chakras were there when humans were created. at the beginning of time, in the present day, and in the future.
I accept that Kundalini was around long before 3HO, but it is a Vedic concept, not a Sikh one.
It is a Sikhi concept. In fact it's a creation concept not bound to any religion....and not bound to any specific moment in time. It's HIS design.

-plapaiseelae gagan majhaara(n) ||
I have entered into the sky of the mind, and opened the Tenth Gate.

baedhheealae chakr bhua(n)gaa ||
The chakras of the coiled Kundalini energy have been opened, 972

ku(n)ddalanee surajhee sathasa(n)gath paramaana(n)dh guroo mukh machaa ||
The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss. 1402

It is mentioned sparingly in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as I have already quoted, and it is hard to disagree with the blatant and definitive statement that it is an empty hypocritical practice, but this is what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji states.

For this please read the full Gurbani and understand the context within which it is written.
Gurbani Page 1043
First section of Gurbani

karehi bibhooth lagaavehi bhasamai ||
Some collect dust, and smear their bodies with ashes;

a(n)thar krodhh cha(n)ddaal s houmai ||
BUT deep within them are the outcasts of ANGER AND EGOTISM.

paakha(n)dd keenae jog n paaeeai bin sathigur alakh n paaeiaa ||12||
Practicing hypocrisy, Yoga is not obtained; without the True Guru, the unseen Lord is not found. ||12||

So we can conclude, practices like smearing body with ashes are worthless/pointless because what they should be concentrating on is their ANGER and EGOTISM. Agree?

Also Guru Ji mentions Yoga is not obtained, so Yoga is a state of being? a state on mind? SO HOW IS THIS TRUE YOGA OBTAINED?

So now to the next portion of Gurbani on the same page
Second portion of gurbani (on same page)

nioulee karam bhueia(n)gam bhaat(h)ee ||
Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate,

raechak ku(n)bhak poorak man haat(h)ee ||
inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind -

paakha(n)dd dhharam preeth nehee har so gur sabadh mehaa ras paaeiaa ||14||
by empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained. ||14||

So Guru Ji has mentioned Anger, EGO, and Dharmic Love. Without these all of these are EMPTY HYPOCRITICAL PRACTICES. So yes i agree.

So how do we gain Dharmic Love? personally i think Charity, helping people, forgiving, protecting, loving people, etc etc will all produce dharmic love and a thirst to 'Seek the Truth'. As a by-product, your Anger and EGo will probably reduce

Ok, so now that you're lovingly planting the seeds to dharmic love...does the inner cleansing techniques have a better chance of working?
YES, because god (searcher of all hearts) will have detected your Love, and Thirst for Him and your efforts will be fruitful because he will pull you up (grace) without which we cannot get there.

Guru Ji also stated above "Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained"
Which is why I meditate on the Shabad Guru (outer SGGS Ji) which will hopefully connect me to the INNER WORD (shabad Guru) inside. And this apparently guides your consciosness towards your creator.

Only time will tell if this is true...but so Far Guru Ji has proved his worth so i have no more doubts about the rest


Naam does not require a kundalini, any more than it requires fasts,
As above gurbani, Kundalini exists, has always existed, as with Seven Chakras, Dassam Duar. Fasts are a creation of Man (mind).
Until we taste naam, experience it ourselves...we cannot really make judgement on what naam requires

we can only try, test, and record results as we are still working with the MIND.

So lets keep trying and testing.

from personal experience, If you have the love and thirst, trying one method, leads to another, then another...
Before you know it, you have lived through an EVOLUTION of 'CONTEMPLATION OF NAAM'...like you're being guided...no one method was right, no one method was wrong....it was all part of the journey and experience.
and one thing you realise it wouldnt have been possible without the LOVE. i would have given up ages ago without the Love.

sacrifices, rituals or meditation. Sure all these things can be fun, and be used as innner cleaning techniques, but are they actually required to gain a state of Naam, in my opinion , No
Simran is so much more than a meditation. but i canot explain this...Simran itself evolves with time and effort...my Simran today is different to my Simran on day one...did I change anything? NO...i went with the flow and i think the currents (grace) guide you on the river.

Guru Ji mentioned as a direct instruction:
a(n)mrith vaelaa sach naao vaddiaaee veechaar ||
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.2

a(n)tharagath theerathh mal naao ||
cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within. 4

oudham karae bhalakae parabhaathee eisanaan karae a(n)mrith sar naavai ||
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. 305

So yes, we do need to make that effort to rise up early and take the inner cleansing bath...
What can be done in the early hours when most are asleep apart from contemplating on God, and Simran on the shabad guru.
Whetever you do, it will evolve into whats right for you...that i can promise

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God bless all

Chazji

Wonderful post, which I will reply to once I have finished reinstalling this vostro.

Could I respectfully ask that you use the quote system that the rest of us use, so that the post is not so cluttered and easier to respond to?

Many thanks

Harry

Luckysingh said:

Great Post Lucki Ji

Personally, I do find that I ignore most of the issues and people that I may not agree with, and sometimes this attitude of mine may come across as ignorance in my posts.-I do apologise for any false interpretations or misleading that may be perceived.
I kind of do the same I can be quite passive at times ... mainly because i understand and see my own shortfalls and issues, therefore i should really sort them out before telling everyone else they are mis-representing Sikhi


-should we just ignore them and give them no recognition or should we fight back and give them recognition ?
-It's not always an easy choice, sometimes we have to do a little of both.
Nope not easy, i'm sure when they see the behaviour of supposed sikhs in the Punjab and U.K, they might be saying the same negative things about us on their forums

Probably one of the most important verses in Gurbani i came across is:

naanak parakhae aap ko thaa paarakh jaan ||
O Nanak, if someone judges HIMSELF, only then is he known as a real judge.

Its so very easy to get a habit of judging others (i know from my own behaviour), and time eventually runs out to judge oneself and we lose the chance to LIVE this perfect GYAN.

If we become as pure as possible, then when the negatives of others are pointed out, they will see through our pureness the right conduct.

All in all, I can't say much about 3HO. Yes, they have done a good job in getting sikhism recognised in the west, even the president knows what sikhs stand for, thanks to them.
Yes, a very good job. I wouldnt like to think what would happen to me if i went into a foreign land in the U.S and started preaching God, spirutuality with a turban on my head

But, then comes the attached money,greed and other non-gurmat practices, which don't do them any favours.
This exists in all groups and religions. where the 5 thieves exist, corruption will exist

However, on the whole when we start to categorise under the headings of 'damage done to whole of sikhism' and 'favours done to whole of sikhism', then we do find that on the whole they have probably done much more favours rather than damage.
Yes, this is a world and age of Duality...of opposites...Both Good and Bad will exist...if we can slant it to the good then we are on the right path.
God bless them and everyone.

In this sense, compared to beings that do complete damage, is why I tend to ignore their unsuitable practices. We all make mistakes.

So Harryji, I totally agree with your attitude towards any groups that bring sikhism into disrepute.
However, I like to point out that you seem to be associating 'kundalini' with just 3HO and Yogi Bhajan, when it is something that they have actually grabbed and associated with themselves, just as they have associated sikhism and Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Yes, the truth existed before the creation, upon creaton, now, and will forever exist...call it Sikhi, jesus's teachings, teachings of budha...the truth has always existed before any of these.
Kundalini, Naam, Amrit, Dassam Duar, third eye (sixth chakra) and the rest of the chakra...and whatever else exists within us...has always been there...and always will until the creation dissolves back into the formless.

But, because we understand Guru Granth Sahib Ji on it's own without any association then we don't view it from their angle. This same technique should be applied to 'kundalini' as it has it's own category long before these lot came along. correct
Also from their point of view the person who gave light to them was a man witha turban and beard called Yogi Bhajan. He started things off for them so i'm not surprised that they have photo's of him.

Maybe they signify, the photo of Yogi bhajan as the Man, who bought to their attention the Guru, and thank God for both their existances.

I thanks my mum for being the first Human to bring to my attention sikhi..and asking me to jaap waheguru. She was my first GURU who took me from dark to light....and so the journey began


So, I actually understand and have some knowledge of 'kundalini' from a completely different angle NOT associated with 3HO yoga.- With this understanding, the bani references will seem more clear cut when mentioning acts of yoga, chakras, kundalini rising...etc...
yes, one can only relate to or understand such concepts if experienced themselves...and we must all put this effort in to open ourselves up to what lies within.

You will then realise that such an energy may exist within us but it can rise(as they say) without any yoga or special breathing.
yes, i havnt had to do any such Yoga...but thats me...
some people have to read a manual and practice a lot to tile a floor. Others do it perfect the first time without the yoga of learning a skill.
Everyone is different and thus may require different steps at deffierent moments of their journey to god.

I won't go into too much detail about the universe and all the different energies, but I hope the little that I have given can explain why the Gurus didn't deny such energies but they did deny the empty dedicated practices that people babbled about.

Simply put, if attaining a state of naam or bliss with creation requires a rising of such an energy called 'kundalini', then this rising can be attained by being and living the word of the shabad and gurbani and NOT by special postural breathing.
-This is ALL that one needs to know about the so called 'kundalini'.

So, you can see Harry ji, why I don't associate 'kundalini' with 3HO, as it has been in existence long before they were.
Well put.

Waheguru

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God bless you

All in all, I can't say much about 3HO. Yes, they have done a good job in getting sikhism recognised in the west, even the president knows what sikhs stand for, thanks to them.
Yes, a very good job. I wouldnt like to think what would happen to me if i went into a foreign land in the U.S and started preaching God, spirutuality with a turban on my head

I'm not sure whose quote is getting quoted here.

This is another thing that's annoying about the yb and the 3HO crowd. They like to say that yb is singlehandedly responsible for introducing Sikhi to the Western hemisphere. He apparently once said that he introduced Sikhi to more people that Guru Gobind Singh, no small egos there.

I grew up in Oregon in the 70s'and I knew about Indian Sikhs since then. There has been a community on the west coast,Oregon,Washington ,California and British Columbia since the middle part of the 1800's. Indian Sikhs have been in states since before a good part of my ancestors came there. I've had business dealings with Sikhs in Texas in the early 80's. I did'nt hear about Yb until 2007 and that was here in Mexico.
I think Ethnic indians still represent the majority of Sikhs in the U.S. and Canada
and don't know where they got the idea that Obama knows about Sikhi from 3HO unless it's from 3HO. There are lots on non 3ho Sikh organizations in the States and Canada so don't cut them short.

linzer said:

All in all, I can't say much about 3HO. Yes, they have done a good job in getting sikhism recognised in the west, even the president knows what sikhs stand for, thanks to them.
Yes, a very good job. I wouldnt like to think what would happen to me if i went into a foreign land in the U.S and started preaching God, spirutuality with a turban on my head

I'm not sure whose quote is getting quoted here.

This is another thing that's annoying about the yb and the 3HO crowd. They like to say that yb is singlehandedly responsible for introducing Sikhi to the Western hemisphere. He apparently once said that he introduced Sikhi to more people that Guru Gobind Singh, no small egos there.

I grew up in Oregon in the 70s'and I knew about Indian Sikhs since then. There has been a community on the west coast,Oregon,Washington ,California and British Columbia since the middle part of the 1800's. Indian Sikhs have been in states since before a good part of my ancestors came there. I've had business dealings with Sikhs in Texas in the early 80's. I did'nt hear about Yb until 2009 and that was here in Mexico.
I think Ethnic indians still represent the majority of Sikhs in the U.S. and Canada
and don't know where they got the idea that Obama knows about Sikhi from 3HO unless it's from 3HO. There are lots on non 3ho Sikh organizations in the States and Canada so don't cut them short.

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Linzer ji,

the thing is 99.9% of all of us are operating under the unfluence of the 5 thieves to varying degrees. With that influence, mistakes occur, ego comes in, we think we have anger under control, but then it pops up again.

We would have instant enlightenment (whatever you want to call it) if ego was completely erased because it is the main thing that created the seperateness feeling between us and god.

I'm sure Yogi Ji made mistakes all his life....just like me you and everyone else.
He was also on the path to fighting the 5 thieves...he would have had many tests and challenges...some he failed and some he passed...

I believe he attained enlightenment later in his life (just my opinion)...his teachings changed considerable at a later age from a more ego filled young life. If someone becomes a better person towards the end of their life due to lifes tests and challenges....do we all continue to ponder and make judgement on their mistakes?

If we are all here to uplift one another, should we keep picking on the negatives of the other when they may be trying their best to better themselves and also uplift others around them?

If harry Haller Ji learnt from all his mistakes, puts maximum effort into his seva and simran but continues to make the odd mistake throughout and at the age of 60 attains enlightenment and helps uplift others.....Is it right then for the masses of people to stamp on him with all the negative things he did with his life? or should they commend him for the efforts he made? and for finally overcoming the 5 thieves on the battlefield that occurs within us all.

I know what i would do

Chazji

Seven chakras to be precise:
sur nar sapath samudhr kia dhhaariou thribhavan jaas ||
He created the gods, human beings and the seven seas; He established the three worlds.
Therefore the chakras were there when humans were created. at the beginning of time, in the present day, and in the future.

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More Vedic references, nothing more, we are Sikhs, all we need is Hukam and Creator

I

t is a Sikhi concept. In fact it's a creation concept not bound to any religion....and not bound to any specific moment in time. It's HIS design.

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I think you need to educate yourself on the difference between Creator concepts and Sikh concepts, Creator concepts can be seen as universal, Sikh ones are not, you are contradicting yourself.

For this please read the full Gurbani and understand the context within which it is written.

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I do, as indeed do you, lets just say we differ, in fact the only reason I am writing this is to balance your enthusiastic lauding of Vedic practices that keep permeating Sikhism.It is a pity my dear Veer Bhagat Singh is away in India, he could have given you a hand lol

YES, because god (searcher of all hearts) will have detected your Love, and Thirst for Him and your efforts will be fruitful because he will pull you up (grace) without which we cannot get there.

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Firstly the english translations of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are so poor, it is pointless using them as support for arguments, I have come to realise this recently. Second, We have different beliefs, I believe in a completely non interventionist God, the onus is on ourselves. You do not, which is fine, that is your stance, you are welcome to it, but please don't state it as definitive, because at least one person disagrees with it, namely, Me

Guru Ji also stated above "Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained"
Which is why I meditate on the Shabad Guru (outer Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) which will hopefully connect me to the INNER WORD (shabad Guru) inside. And this apparently guides your consciosness towards your creator.

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I could not care less about the sublime supreme essence, I think you want it more than I do, All I really care about is living in Hukam and treasuring the rare times when I feel in Naam. What you are trying to do sounds way to complicated for simple folk like myself. In fact I find it hard enough to do follow Hukam and find Naam! If along the way Creator blesses me with the sublime supreme essence, than that is his gift which I will accept happily, but yearn for it, fight for it, earn it? no thanks, its not my call, it is his

Until we taste naam, experience it ourselves...we cannot really make judgement on what naam requires

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Are you kidding me? your suggesting that the way to Naam, the path is unknown? I think not, I think you will find the way to Naam in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, perhaps if you ceased chasing Vedic concepts you might see that.....

So lets keep trying and testing.

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Good luck, call me Mr old fashioned, but I always thought the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written so we did not have to try and test

Regards

Harry

Chazji,
You are completely missing my point here. Indian Sikhs have been in U.S and Canada for
more than a hundred years and this fellow comes along and claims to be the first Sikh in the new world. Fine, he changed over the years everyone does to one extent or another. The problem is that this myth is still being perpetuated by 3HO and credit is not being given to alot of fine, humble people that deserve it.

the thing is 99.9% of all of us are operating under the unfluence of the 5 thieves to varying degrees. With that influence, mistakes occur, ego comes in, we think we have anger under control, but then it pops up again.

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agreed

We would have instant enlightenment (whatever you want to call it) if ego was completely erased because it is the main thing that created the seperateness feeling between us and god.

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I think that is rather optimistic, what about study, understanding, wisdom?

If harry Haller Ji learnt from all his mistakes, puts maximum effort into his seva and simran but continues to make the odd mistake throughout and at the age of 60 attains enlightenment and helps uplift others.....Is it right then for the masses of people to stamp on him with all the negative things he did with his life? or should they commend him for the efforts he made? and for finally overcoming the 5 thieves on the battlefield that occurs within us all.

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The accusations against this Yogi did not diminish with his years, we all have a past, I myself am rather proud of mine, and have no problem discussing it. However, as in the case of the Sikh caught with the Royals, the general consensus was that his previous behaviour overshadowed whatever good he did. That is something he should realise, something we should all realise, nothing gets deleted, nothing gets forgotten, one who has raised himself to be a good person from a bad background would be wise not to make too much of the good behaviour, in case the past catches up, of course you could always be completely upfront about your past and shortcomings, in which case you have nothing to fear