Bhagats Is Bhagat Namdev Ji An Idol Worshipper?

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

Bhagat namdev Ji is from MAHARASTRA. In Maharashtra there is a Hindu mandir with a KRISHAN JI Moortee called BEETHAL ( Krishan Ji sitting ona Rock ). Once Bhagat madev Ji entered this mandir and was Promptly KICKED OUT of iyt by the Pandits for being a SHUDRA LOW CASTE. Bhagat ji took his blanket and did samadhi at the BACK of the mandir and Prayed to HIS "BEETHAL = WAHEGURU=AKAL PURAKH"....as to WHY he is being discriminated like this just becasue of his LOW CASTE....and Low and Behold..the MANDIR ROTATED on its FOUNDATION to FACE Bhagat namdev Ji sitting at its BACK.. This incident is mentioned by Bhagat Ji in His Gurbani in the Guru Granth Ji sahib.. This Shabad led to the MISCONCEPTION that Bhagat namdev Ji was a "Beethal" Moortee idol worshipper.

1. Question arises...since Bhagat namdev Ji is LOCAL RESIDENT, His Low caste is well Known to all. The Beethal mandir is also LOCAL. IF Bhagat namdev Ji had been going to the Mandir as a REGULAR WORSHIPPER...then it begs the question as to WHY he was Kicked out one day and not before ??

2 The second reason for thsi misconception si that Bahgat ji uses the word BEETHAL a lot in his writings...But if we care to read his writings properly..we will noticve that Bhagat Ji's BEETHAL is a word for word decription of AKAL PURAKH..and not a stone idol.

dUDu ktorY gfvY pwnI ] kpl gwie nwmY duih AwnI ]1] dUDu pIau goibMdy rwie ] dUDu pIau, myro mnu pqIAwie ] nwhI q Gr ko bwpu irswie ]1] rhwau ] suoien ktorI AMimRq BrI ] lY nwmY hir AwgY DrI ]2] eyku Bgqu myry ihrdy bsY ] nwmy dyiK nrwienu hsY ]3] dUDu pIAwie Bgqu Gir gieAw ] nwmy hir kw drsnu BieAw ]4]3] {pMnw 1163}

This shabad has always been quoted by many derawallhs followers to prove that bahagt anmdev Ji is also a Idol worshipper just like Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

They do "superficial" aarths of this shabad as "proof"...

What do the readers think...???

Jarnail Singh

re: Is Bhagat Namdev ji An Idol Worshipper ?

Gurfateh

It apears that like First Master visited Jagannath Temple not to worship but to preach so did Sant Namdev Ji wentto temple to rove that Akal is real bethal and not the idol.

Re: Is Bhagat Namdev ji An Idol Worshipper ?

Given that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGSJ) is the living Guru of the Khalsa Panth, one must surely accept the contents therein and not doubt even the very paper it's written on let alone question the authencity of any of it's composers.

We must attune to the spirit of SGGSJ and not to the letter or the ink used. Let us accept SGGSJ as our "Lord God" and not question the identity or the creed of the composers.

Our dear father, Sri Guru Govind Singh Ji said, "khoj shabad main lay" (recite any shabad from SGGSJ and you will cross the ocean of life).

Let us dwell on any "one" word from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in its spiritual form rather than engage in controversial matters of the illusionary world.

Warm regards

Re: Is Bhagat Namdev ji An Idol Worshipper ?

Bhagat Nam Dev Ji was accepted by Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji among the 15 Bhagats whose Bani was included in the formation of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which was called as 'Pothi Sahib' at the time of its installation in the holy precints of Harmandar Sahib Ji, the Centre of Sikh Religion then in 1604 A.D.

We cannot imagin even in our drems that Guru Arjun Dev ji did not exercise proper judgement and faulted in accepting the bani of Bhagat Nam Dev Ji, whom some misguided Sikhs call him Krishan Bhagat instead of Akal Purakh. Gurbani says " Nam Dev Kabir Trilochan Pure Gur te gat payee". Nama kahe tirlochana mukh te ram samhal, hath pao kar kam sabh cheet niranjan naal".

Bhagat Naam Dev ji visited that famous temple to educate people worshiping in that temple of the hollowness of their "karmkands" and taking them away from "Murti Puja' being performed at that temple. To understand this, we should look at the parchar strategy of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who went to Haridwar, Mecca, Sumer Parbat, Achal Batale, Jagan Nath Temple to give them his message. Guru Nanak Dev ji did not subscribe to the viewpoints prevailng in those areas, similarly Bhagt Nam Dev ji did not subscribe to the "Murti Puja" being done in the temple, he addressed Almighty about the wrongs being done there in a very sarcastic manner to deliver his message. We need to understand the true meaning of Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and beware of some anti panthic forces who are out to prove Sikhs as Murti Pujaks. They have not spared Guru Gobind Singh Ji and tried to prove that he was "Devi Pujak'. So be careful of their evil design. Understand the true meaning of Gurbani. In case of any doubt refer to the 'Guru Granth Sahib Darpan', the interpretation of the entire bani of Guru Granth Sahib ji by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji, which is available in 10 volumes. In the past about 60-65 years ago, the so called Sikh Scholars in Babu Teja Singh of Bhasaur had committed the same mistake and attempted to discard the entire Bhagat Bani and attempted to publish Guru Granth Sahib ji without Bhagat Bani. He was excommunicated from the Panth.

Let us devote ourselves to the understanding of Gurbani on the basis of 'Gurbani Grammar'.

Re: Is Bhagat Namdev ji An Idol Worshipper ?

Tejinder Singh Ji, thank you for your reflecting thoughts on Bhagat Namdev Ji. I was trying to draw the writer (Gyani Jarnail Singh) to look away from the critical viewpoint of any of the composers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and instead, try and link people to the philosophical wisdom enshrined within.

I'm afraid I'm not fully aware of any anti-panthic people who deliberately go out to dishonour Sikhism and even if they did in their folly, they will one day by the very same Almighty realise the "truth" that Sikhi is. Let us therefore, pray for all souls to realise the "Satnam Waheguru" of the house of Guru Nanak.

Kind regards

Make the spiritual connection with Bhagat Namdev. Ang 656/657


ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
There is but One God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained.

ਜਬ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਬ ਗਾਵਾ ॥
जब देखा तब गावा ॥
Jab ḏekẖā ṯab gāvā.
When I see my Lord, then sing I His praise.

ਤਉ ਜਨ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਪਾਵਾ ॥੧॥
तउ जन धीरजु पावा ॥१॥
Ŧa▫o jan ḏẖīraj pāvā. ||1||
It is then, that I, His slave, obtain forbearance.

ਨਾਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਲੋ ਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਲੇ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
नादि समाइलो रे सतिगुरु भेटिले देवा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nāḏ samā▫ilo re saṯgur bẖetile ḏevā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Meeting with the Bright True Guru. I have merged in the world-incarnate Lord. Pause.

ਜਹ ਝਿਲਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਾਰੁ ਦਿਸੰਤਾ ॥
जह झिलि मिलि कारु दिसंता ॥
Jah jẖil mil kār ḏisanṯā.
Where the dazzling light is seen,

ਤਹ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਬਜੰਤਾ ॥
तह अनहद सबद बजंता ॥
Ŧah anhaḏ sabaḏ bajanṯā.
there plays the celestial strain.

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਨੀ ॥
जोती जोति समानी ॥
Joṯī joṯ samānī.
The Light of the Luminous Lord is pervading there.

ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
मै गुर परसादी जानी ॥२॥
Mai gur parsādī jānī. ||2||
By Guru's grace I have known it.

ਰਤਨ ਕਮਲ ਕੋਠਰੀ ॥
रतन कमल कोठरी ॥
Raṯan kamal koṯẖrī.
In the heat-lotus chamber are the jewels.

ਚਮਕਾਰ ਬੀਜੁਲ ਤਹੀ ॥
चमकार बीजुल तही ॥
Cẖamkār bījul ṯahī.
There they glitter like lightning.

ਨੇਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
नेरै नाही दूरि ॥
Nerai nāhī ḏūr.
The Lord is near, not distant.

ਨਿਜ ਆਤਮੈ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥੩॥
निज आतमै रहिआ भरपूरि ॥३॥
Nij āṯmai rahi▫ā bẖarpūr. ||3||
He completely permeates my mind.

ਜਹ ਅਨਹਤ ਸੂਰ ਉਜ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰਾ ॥
जह अनहत सूर उज्यारा ॥
Jah anhaṯ sūr uj▫yārā.
Where there is the light of the undying sun,

ਤਹ ਦੀਪਕ ਜਲੈ ਛੰਛਾਰਾ ॥
तह दीपक जलै छंछारा ॥
Ŧah ḏīpak jalai cẖẖancẖẖārā.
there, the burning lamps of the sum and the moon appear insignificant.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
गुर परसादी जानिआ ॥
Gur parsādī jāni▫ā.
By Guru's grace, I have known this.

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮਾ ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੧॥
जनु नामा सहज समानिआ ॥४॥१॥
Jan nāmā sahj samāni▫ā. ||4||1||
Slave Nama is absorbed in his Lord.

Beautiful ! That is harmony at its best -

The nature and purpose of "gurbani" is to up-lift the soul melodiously on board the universial flow (anhad shabad) and connect.

I'm sincerely grateful for you to dig up that particular verse - once again, thank you !

My answer is stronly No. Bhagat ji was not at all Idol worshiper. He was not Krishan's Bhagat. He was Hari's bhagat. In his bani He wrote, Ram, Beethal, Hari, Sanwla, and Suami, Gobinde, Khana,etc.
Bhagat ji used Beethal word 9 times but Guru Arjan used 6 times . If he used bethal word many times does not mean that he was Beethal Bhagat. Look at the whole Shabad then see what is the intent of the Shabad. Bhagatji never never said that he was Beethal's Bhagat. If you want more clearification go look Prof Sahib singhji" 5th Pothi page 705.
Next question thahe was Idol worshipper. Not at all. Look at his all other Shabads in which he strongly condemn Karam Kand one of them that he strongly condem is Pathar POOJa in Gujri Rag. and also condem other Avtars in ' NAME AJJ BEETHAL DEKHIA, MOORAKH KO SAMJAOO RE"
IF he had condemned Karam Kand and Pathar Pooja then how come he is branded as idol worshiper. This type of the accusation is only possible form a person who could have very poor knoledge of Gurbani. When you interpret Gurbani you read the whole Shabad with Rahao wali line which is your central point and whole Shabad is its explanation. More over you need to interpret the intent of shabad keeping in mind the grammer of the Shabad. If you read literal meaning of Shabad then you will be on wrong path. I can give you example the same shabad of Bhagatji.
In the last line word Bhagat is plural word and JANAN is also plural. That means that Mander could be every place where all Bhagats feel about it. It is not about that particular Mander. It is not about particular Bhagat Nama Devji. This is true for all Bhagats. This explain the whole thing that Mander never rotate. But all mander are felt by all Bhagats where ever they like. This supports the previous version of the Shabad; NAME SOI SIMERYA, NA DEHURA NA MASEET" and remember Almighty is at every place.
Chamkaur Brar. If some body has question about it then please can call me on PHONE NUMBER REMOVED AS IT IS NOT SAFE INTERNET PRACTICE. PLEASE USE PRIVATE MESSAGING FACILITY. THANKS.

Chamkaur brar ji

I think this is one of the shabads you refer to above. It is good to have it in front of us so that we can understand your explanation better, and see how indeed it does come from the shabad. This is also interesting because the rehao line is the very first -- unusual but very emphatic. Ang 874/5

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਗੋਂਡ ॥
bilaaval gonadd ||
Bilaaval Gond:


ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
aaj naamae beethal dhaekhiaa moorakh ko samajhaaoo rae || rehaao ||
Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause||

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥
paanddae thumaree gaaeithree lodhhae kaa khaeth khaathee thhee ||
O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields.


ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥
lai kar thaegaa ttagaree thoree laangath laangath jaathee thhee ||1||
Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1||


ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥
paanddae thumaraa mehaadhaeo dhhoulae baladh charriaa aavath dhaekhiaa thhaa ||
O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.

ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥
modhee kae ghar khaanaa paakaa vaa kaa larrakaa maariaa thhaa ||2||
In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2||

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥
paanddae thumaraa raamachandh so bhee aavath dhaekhiaa thhaa ||
O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too


ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥
raavan saethee sarabar hoee ghar kee joe gavaaee thhee ||3||
he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||


ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥
hindhoo annhaa thurakoo kaanaa ||
The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.


ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
dhuhaan thae giaanee siaanaa ||
The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.


ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
hindhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.


ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
naamae soee saeviaa jeh dhaehuraa n maseeth ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||

The Rahao comes at the very beginning...because this is one of those times when the Bhagat ji is.saying..LOOK HERE !! ATTENTION !! DONT BE FOOLED. No more time for beating around the BUSH..just straight bulls eye...BOTTOM LINE.

2. Aside point:
Just savour the LANGUAGE...so simple and straightforward...any Punjabi/Hindostani/Hindi/Urdu speaker with just apssing knowledge of those languages would be able to understand it perfectly....as if this was written TODAY.....when in FACT this is written nearly 100+ YEARS BEFORE KABIR JI....and long before GURU NANAK JI Sahib...

3. Bhagats namdev ji wrote his Gurbani 100 years before Bhagat Kabir Ji....and long before Guru nanak ji...and way before GURU ANGAD JI...BUT SIKHS have for a loong time stressed that GURMUKHI SCRIPT/PUNJABI was "invented" by Guru Angad Ji....then later in the light of new irrefutable evidence this claim was slightly modified to say..GURU NANAK Ji must have used GURMUKHI SCRIPT...and written in PUNJABI...BUT the solid irrefutable FACT of the matter is that in the SGGS we have a BAVAN AKHREE..containing ALL the Alphabets of Modern day Gurmukhi and more surprising is that Kbair Ji PRONOUNCES the Alphabets..OORRAA, AERRA, EERREE, SASSA etc exactly as we do TODAY. And Bhagat namdev Ji and the other Bhagats that came before MUST have used this same script and language. Maybe Guru Nanak ji did soem slight modifications and Guru Angad ji POPULARISED the Gurmukhi Script even more since the Gurbani of His master was in this language. Furthermore the Sanskrit was a CLOSED BANNED language..strictly FORBIDDEN to shudra usage..at Pain of DEATH. So the Shudra bhagats must have begin using a COMMON MANS language/Script for their writings. Certainly Guur Arjun Ji DID NOT ALTER/change the Original script/language of the Bahgats Gurbani...that would be wrong. Hnece this Gurbani is as written by Bhagat ji..and its so CONTEMPORARY !! and Down to earth Divine Message...so overwhelmingly beautiful.welcomemundawelcomemundawelcomemundawelcomemundawelcomemunda

Do we all agree that Bhagatji was not Krishan's follower because Bhagat ji in Gond Rag categorically denies and condemn other Hindu Avtar [ Name Ajj Beeathal Dekehiaya } and Bhagat ji used other names too like RAMIYYA, RAMA, AKAL KHANNA, KALANDHAR,ABDALI ESUAMI, ETC. Even Guru Arjan devji used beethal word 6 times. Is there any doubtin some body's mind then I can explain more but if every body agree then we should move to next topic about Bhagatji like, Did bhagat made stone to drink milk? and Did Bhagat ji gave life to cow ?
2nd thing is every body clear that Mander never rotated. Word 'PHIRAI' does not mean only rotation. The subject that line is plural. So it is general for all Bhagat that Mander could be anywhere. Whereever they sit the Mander is ther. If Nama Bhagat sat behind the mander then Mander is behind the Mander.. If any body has any doubt please come with it so that we can research more.
Chamkaur Brar

chamkaur brar said:

Do we all agree that Bhagatji was not Krishan's follower because Bhagat ji in Gond Rag categorically denies and condemn other Hindu Avtar [ Name Ajj Beeathal Dekehiaya } and Bhagat ji used other names too like RAMIYYA, RAMA, AKAL KHANNA, KALANDHAR,ABDALI ESUAMI, ETC. Even Guru Arjan devji used beethal word 6 times. Is there any doubtin some body's mind then I can explain more but if every body agree then we should move to next topic about Bhagatji like, Did bhagat made stone to drink milk? and Did Bhagat ji gave life to cow ?
2nd thing is every body clear that Mander never rotated. Word 'PHIRAI' does not mean only rotation. The subject that line is plural. So it is general for all Bhagat that Mander could be anywhere. Whereever they sit the Mander is ther. If Nama Bhagat sat behind the mander then Mander is behind the Mander.. If any body has any doubt please come with it so that we can research more.
Chamkaur Brar

Click to expand...

I have created a new thread where we can have discussions of your questions.

* Did bhagat made stone to drink milk? and
* Did Bhagat ji gave life to cow ?


Discuss at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/34328-sakhis-of-bhagat-namdev.html#post141370

Chamkaur Ji, what if Bhagat Nam Dev was a Krishan follower, does it change anything ? We are Sikhs, followers of the house of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and children of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Our purpose and mission is to show the world how to live harmoniously with the blessings of SGGSJ in a civilised society without the need for a critical evaluation of any of it's composers. So why don't we flick though the pages of SGGSJ for a fruitful meaning and realisation of the spiritual essence rather than meaningless debate over who's who and who did whatsoever etc..

Educate us on the meaning and the purpose of the verses enshrined within SGGSJ. Tell us about the composers and the social state at the time when they composed so that we can better understand the prevalent conditions under which they composed. For instance, I am led to believe that Bhagat Kabir used the name "Kabir" purely for writing purposes ? Is that true ?

Tell us about "Jeevan Mukhti" -

Kind regards

Its written..<<<<<< Chamkaur Ji, what if Bhagat Nam Dev was a Krishan follower, does it change anything ? <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

Imho YES it does matter. Becasue the SGGS is showing us a Complete and Brand New Path..away form all the past pagdandees, beaten paths, established pathways...and all.
KRISHAN has his own philosophy, path to God...BUT the SIKHS are NOT followers of that path. So its important to establish that no contributor to SGGS is indeed following a different path..and that Bhagat namdev ji is in fact a follower of the Same One path set out in SGGS. YES Bhagat namdev Ji is following the Path of GURU NANAK JI and not Krishan Ji.
japposatnamwaheguru:

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Tell us about "Jeevan Mukhti" -

Click to expand...

Would you be kind enough to shed some light on the above?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Yes Tejwant ji I will describe jeean Mukti as has been described in our SGGS. But first Iwould like to add To GYani ji's answer for previous threader.
There are some people who asks questions about SGGS's contrubuter including Bhagatji. They also wrongly showing Bhagatji is stone Pujik or Krishan's follower. There some Derawale that in all Grdwaras keep on telling these three stories [MURTI POOJA,STONE DRANK MILK, AND GAVE LIFE TO COW}. To prove them wrong that Shabads written by Bhagat ji need to bexplained incontext with our SGGS. We need to proove that people who have antipanthik opinion that they are taking only litteral meaning of the words in Shabad or just superficial meaning. They need to look the wordsused by Bhagatji as metaphers. They should explain SGGS on basis of Gurbani Grammer. Please stop confusing our sangat. Starting frrom page one to 1430 of SGGS the message is consistant. All the contributer of SGGS are tested by our 5th Guru. They need to look deep into the vast occean of Gurbani. Fro derawales need to stop teeling the miracle stories. None of our Gurus and Bhagatji had shown any miracle. Message of Gurbani is to praise almighty by simeron and to live life with 5 principles like Sat, Santokh,Dya, Dharam,Anand, Vichar. guru called this is a Bhagati or santokhi jeevan. This is our liberation.
Chamkaur Brar

Dear All
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us "love and devotion" - let us not move away from the central theme. Let us promote and advocate the "word" of Guru Nanak in a user friendly mode rather than from a critical perspective. Accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the living God and preach the "word".
Waheguru has provided this medium (SPN) for us to explore and meditate on "nam" - let us talk about "jeevan mukhti" or any other topic from which we can all enrich ourselves and share it with our neighbours . Let us tell the world philosophically of Guru's bani and not meddle with the literature therein.
Brgds