Idol Worship Of AGGS

Idol worship – It is the worship of sacred objects personifing but not God with adoration, devotion, profound reverent love, and allegiance accorded to a deity/idol/sacred religious scripture or picture as opposed to the worship pf a monotheistic God. Worship combines the ideas of bowing before, paying homage to, and selfless service with devotional love. It involves recognition of worth in God, and the offering of honor, praise, and adoration to the One who is altogether worthy.

ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥

Pothī parmesar kā thān.Sāḏẖsang gāvahi guṇ gobinḏ pūran barahm gi▫ān.

The Scripture (Word) is the dwelling of the Transcendent Akal Purkh. Whoever sings the Glorious Praises of It in the Company of the Holy, acquires Divine enlightenment. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sarag, AGGS, Page, 1226-3

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According to the Bible, idolatry originated in the age of Eber, though some interpret the text to mean in the time of Serug; traditional Jewish lore traces it back to Enos, the second generation after Adam. Image worship existed in the time of Jacob, from the account of Rachel taking images along with her on leaving her father's house, which is given in the book of Genesis. According to the Midrash Genesis Rabba, Abraham's father, Terah, was both an idol manufacturer and worshipper. It is recounted in both traditional Jewish texts and in the Quran that when Abraham discovered the true God, he destroyed his father's idols.The commandments in the Hebrew Bible against idolatry forbade the adoption of the beliefs and practices of the pagans who lived amongst the Israelites at the time, especially the religions of ancient Akkad, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. -----Wikipedia encyclopedia

IMHO since the mortal mind cannot comprehend the immanence and transcendence of the nameless, formless, infinite, unfathomable incomprehensible version of Akal Purkh, different idols like AGGS, Hindu deities and images or pictures of Sikh Gurus or even Saints (Sants) are seen filling the walls of religious places. These all are idols in one way or the other. They are not substitutes for God but in fact AGGS is considered as God by majority of spiritually ignorant Sikhs, due to inherited wrong information rammed in to their psyche by parents, traditions, and or by illetrate Granthies. All the empty purposeless rituals or religious dresses etc (ਭੇਖੀ) related to this ignorance or show of external piety are well known to all of us. Guru Gobind Singh writes in Akal Ustit about these rituals;

ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥

Koor Kria Orjheo Sabh Jag Sri Bhagwan Ko Bhayd Na Paa-eo.

The entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine.-----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G., Page, 15

Guru Gobind Singh in his message in the Bachitar Natak advised the Sikhs that Sikh Gurus cannot be equaled to God they are just human beings and servants of God and were born to deliver Its message to the humanity. It is the God who has to be worshiped and Gurus are teachers who should be respected. Guru Gobind Singh points to this in Bachitar Natak;

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਉਚਰ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਮੋ ਕੋ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥ ੩੨ ॥
Je Ham Ko Parmeshar Ouchar Hai, Te Sabh Narak Kundh Meh Par Hai, Mo Ko Das Tavan Ka Jano, Ya Mai Bhayd Na Ranch Pachano.

Those who would call me God they will fall in to the deep pit of hell. Know me as his servant and nothing is other than truth in it. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Bachitar Natak, DG, Page, 57-32

The fundamental point about idol worship is the most important lesson that one should learn from Hinduism. Sikh Gurus have commented on this aspect of idol/stone worship many times in Sabd Guru;

ਪੜਿ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਸੰਧਿਆ ਬਾਦੰ ॥ਸਿਲ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਬਗੁਲ ਸਮਾਧੰ ॥ ਮੁਖਿ ਝੂਠ ਬਿਭੂਖਣ ਸਾਰੰ ॥ਤ੍ਰੈਪਾਲ ਤਿਹਾਲ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥ਗਲਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਿਲਾਟੰ ॥ਦੁਇ ਧੋਤੀ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਕਪਾਟੰ ॥ਜੇ ਜਾਣਸਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ਸਭਿ ਫੋਕਟ ਨਿਸਚਉ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਹਚਉ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

Paṛ pusṯak sanḏẖi¬ā bāḏaʼn.Sil pūjas bagul samāḏẖaʼn.Mukẖ jẖūṯẖ bibẖūkẖaṇ sāraʼn.Ŧaraipāl ṯihāl bicẖāraʼn.Gal mālā ṯilak lilātaʼn.Ḏu¬ė ḏẖoṯī basṯar kapātaʼn.Jė jāṇas barahmaʼn karmaʼn.Sabẖ fokat niscẖa¬o karmaʼn.Kaho Nānak nihcẖa¬o ḏẖi¬āvai.viṇ saṯgur vāt na pāvai.

You read your books and say your prayers, and then engage in debate; you worship stones and sit like a stork, pretending to be in Samaadhi. With your mouth you utter falsehood, and you adorn yourself with precious decorations; you recite the three lines of the Gayatri three times a day. Around your neck is a rosary, and on your forehead is a sacred mark; upon your head is a turban and you wear two loin cloths. If you knew the nature of God, you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain. Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith; without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa AGGS, Page, 470

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਆ ਦੇਹਿ ॥ਪਾਹਣੁ ਨੀਰਿ ਪਖਾਲੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਬੂਡਹਿ ਤੇਹਿ ॥

Ḏėvī ḏėvā pūjī¬ai bẖā¬ī ki¬ā māga¬o ki¬ā ḏeh.Pāhaṇ nīr pakẖālī¬ai bẖā¬ī jal meh būḏẖeh ṯėhi.

Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us? The stone gods are washed with water, O Siblings of Destiny, but they just sink in the water. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 637-6

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥

Pāthar lė pūjeh mugaḏẖ gavār. Ohi jā āp dubė ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār.

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bihagraha, AGGS, Page, 556-10

Guru Nanak if alive would have given the same advice to the Sikhs of today.

ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਫੂਲ ਤੋਰਾਵੈ ॥ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੜਾ ਸਰੇਵਹਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਰਥੀ ਘਾਲ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥

Bẖaram bẖūlė agi¬ānī anḏẖulė bẖaram bẖaram fūl ṯorāvai. Nirjī¬o pūjeh maṛā sarėveh sabẖ birthī gẖāl gavāvai.

The ignorant and the blind wander deluded by doubt; deluded and confused, they pick flowers to offer to their idols. They worship lifeless stones and serve the tombs of the dead; all their efforts are useless. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1264-3

ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ਗਲ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਹਣੁ ਲੈ ਲਟਕਾਵੈ ॥ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਸਾਕਤੁ ਫਿਰਤਾ ॥ਨੀਰੁ ਬਿਰੋਲੈ ਖਪਿ ਖਪਿ ਮਰਤਾ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਣ ਕਉ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕਹਤਾ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਪਾਹਣੁ ਲੈ ਉਸ ਕਉ ਡੁਬਤਾ ॥
Gẖar meh ṯẖākur naḏar na āvai. Gal meh pāhaṇ lai latkāvai. Bẖarmė bẖūlā sākaṯ firṯā.Nīr birolai kẖap kẖap marṯā. Jis pāhaṇ ka¬o ṯẖākur kahṯā. Oh pāhaṇ lai us ka¬o dubṯā.

That stone, which he calls his god, that stone pulls him down and drowns him. Within the home of his own self, he does not even come to see his God and Master. And yet, around his neck, he hangs a stone god. The faithless cynic wanders around, deluded by doubt, churns water, and after wasting his life away, he dies. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 739

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਸਦ ਬੋਲੰਤਾ ॥ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਤਾ ॥
Jo pāthar ka¬o kahṯė ḏėv.Ŧā kī birthā hovai sėv. Jo pāthar kī pāʼn¬ī pā¬ė.Ŧis kī gẖāl ajāʼn¬ī jā¬ė. Ŧẖākur hamrā saḏ bolanṯā. Sarab jī¬ā ka¬o parabẖ ḏān ḏėṯā.

Those who call a stone their god-their service is useless. Those who fall at the feet of a stone god-their work is wasted in vain. My Akal Purkh and Master speak forever, and give Its gifts to all living beings. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1160

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥

Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī¬o.Jis pāhan ka¬o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī¬o. Bẖūlī mālnī hai ė¬o.Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏė¬o. Barahm pāṯī bisan dārī fūl sankarḏė¬o.Ŧīn ḏėv parṯakẖ ṯoreh karahi kis kī sė¬o.Pākẖān gadẖ kai mūraṯ kīnĥī ḏė kai cẖẖāṯī pā¬o.Jė ėh mūraṯ sācẖī hai ṯa¬o gaṛĥaṇhārė kẖā¬o.

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life. That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. In this, you are mistaken, O gardener. The True Guru is the Living God (ਸਰਗੁਣ). When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest. If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this!----- Kabir, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 479

So long as you think AGGS the idol as God you have not got it. It describes the right path to reach that metaphysical super immanent and transcendent Higher Power. Those who use the teachings willingly, honestly, truthfully to evolve a good moral character and who follow the instructions at each step with deliberation and reflection on daily basis do find God. People who believe in formless God do find fault that God should not be worshipped through idols. Idol worship introduces a duality between the worshipper and the worshipped and so is a come down from the unique mental cognition of the Divinity inherent in oneself. One who kills duality and doubt lives a pure lifestyle, is spiritually wise, and meditates intuitively. Living in doubt and duality, one is not acceptable, even though one may perform millions of rituals, chants, wears religious clothes or symbols and austerities.

ਤੀਰਥ ਵਰਤ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

Ŧirath varaṯ sucẖ sanjam nāhī karam ḏẖaram nahī pūjā, Nānak bẖā¬ė bẖagaṯ nisṯārā ḏubiḏẖā vi¬āpai ḏūjā.

Pilgrimages, fasts, purification and self-discipline are of no use, nor are rituals, religious ceremonies or empty worship. O Nanak, emancipation comes only by loving devotional worship; through duality, people are engrossed in duality. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 75- 17 & 18

But still duality and idolatry continues.

Guru Gobind Singh describes the way to reach God in Akal Ustit;

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯ ॥

Saach Kahou Sun Leho Sabhai Jin Prem Kio Tin He Prabh Paa-eo.

Let all listen to the truth I proclaim-only he who loves attains the Akal Purkh.-----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G., Page, 14

He further points out on DG page 24 that artificial rituals like Hom Jag are useless and are not equal to devotion and Naam;

ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤ ਸਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਪਰਤ ਪਾਨ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਮ ਅਰ ਜੱਗ ਦਾਨ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਲੀਨ ॥ ਫੋਕਟੋ ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ॥ ੨੦ ॥ ੧੪੦ ॥ Bin Bhagat Sakat Nhai Parat Paan, Boh Karat Hom Ur Jag Daan, Bin Ek Naam Ik Chit Leen, Fokto Sarb Dharma Baheen.

Thou can not realize the Akal Purkh with out power of devotion; many perform yajnas (Akhand Path) and give charities though; Except for placing the Name of Real One in heart, all other deeds are futile. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G, Page, 24

ਮੋਨ ਭਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਤਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਭੇਖ ਸਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮੂੰਡ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ॥ ਕੰਠਿ ਨ ਕੰਠੀ ਕਠੋਰ ਧਰੈ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਜਟਾਨ ਕੇ ਜੂਟ ਸਹਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋ ਸੁਨਿ ਲੈ ਚਿਤੁਦੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੀਨ ਦਿਆਲ ਕੀ ਸਾਮ ਸਿਧਾਏ ॥ ਪੀ੍ਤ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਭ ਪਾਯਤ ਹੈ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਨ ਭੀਜਤ ਲਾਂਡ ਕਟਾਏ ॥ ੧੦੦ ॥

Mon Bhajay Nahi Maan Tajay Nahi Bhaykh Sajay Nahi Moond Munda-ay, Kanth Na Knthi Kathir Dharai Nahi Sis Jataan Ke Joot Sahaa-ay, Saach Kaho Sun Lai Chitdai Bin Din Dayal Ki Saam Sidha-ay, Preet Karay Prabh Paaeyt Hai Kirpal Na Bheejat Laand Kataa-ay.

Akal Purkh cannot be attained by silent recitations, repudiation of pride, different guises and shaving of the head. One cannot get It by wearing rosary and keeping the matted hair on the head. I tell you the truth that with out going in the refuge of compassionate Akal Purkh nothing will be accomplished. It can be realized only through love and mere circumcision cannot melt Its heart. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Bachitar Natak, DG, Page, 46-100

Conclusion:

Sikh Gurus during their life never let them be considered as God, and then how come AGGS at present is being considered so, being fed, clothed, and kept comfortable temperature wise by spiritually ignorant care taker Sikhs. It is a path towards God. Those believing it to be God are living in the 15th century. Inherent to creation is the existence of opposites to a spiritually ignorant mind. Everything exists in contrast: there can be no good without evil (though evil is not the opposite of Primary good/God), no right without wrong, no pleasure without pain, no security without insecurity, no happiness without unhappiness, no teacher without a student, no parent without a child, no enlightenment without delusion, and so forth. Life moves in cycles going from one extreme to the other in duality. Non-dualism assumes that these dichotomies are illusionary at worst or inaccurate conveniences at best.The only thing for liberation and to meet the Akal Purkh is through love of devotion and Its Fear/Will, whereby one becomes a candidate for Its Grace with complete removal of duality from the mind. It is the Grace of the Akal Purkh necessary to cross this worldly ocean (ਭਵਜਲ) by following the teachings as incorporated in the present Guru (Sabd Guru).

ਦੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਲਗਿ ਵਿਗੁਤਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਸੋ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਰਜਾਈ ॥

Doojai Sabh Ko Laeg Vigutaa Bin Satgur Boojh Na Payee. Saṯgur seve so sukẖ pā▫e jis no kirpā kare rajā▫ī.

Attached to duality, all are ruined; without the True Guru, there is no understanding. Those who serve the True Guru find peace; they are blessed with Grace by the Will of the Akal Purkh.

ਭੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਟੀਐ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਭਉ ਊਪਜੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ਭੈ ਤੇ ਸਹਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਿਲਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ ॥

Bhai Bin Bharam Na KaTaeaa Naam Na Lagai Piaar. Saṯgur ṯe bẖa▫o ūpjai pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār.Bẖai ṯe sahj pā▫ī▫ai mil joṯī joṯ apār.

Without the Fear of God, doubt is not dispelled, and love for the Name is not embraced. Through the True Guru, the Fear of God wells up, and the Door of Salvation is found. Through the Fear of God, intuitive ease is obtained, and one's light merges into the Light of the Infinite. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1287 & 88

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI

virinder ji

Forgive me. Your words on the proper worship of a formless God are indisputable. But I may have another thing to add. IMHO it is a good thing that the Guru is covered with a nice rumala, and that the temperature is controlled and the granth is stored when not in the darshan in a special place that is clean and sacred.

People it is true can overdo the rumala, etc. and become competitive. But I am really so proud when I see the sangat has placed the Guru under a beautifully carved wooden baldequino (I don't know the Punjabi word for the canopy, so I used the Italian one) in one gurdwara near me. And in the other one, under a canopy that is tasteful and colorful enameled metal. It is a sign of respect and care. The rumalas are works of art. Maybe this is all coming from a foolish person.

When I watch the Sikhnet Sundary Gurdwara service -- at the end when the Guru is removed from the darshan sahib the procession is very moving. The sangat turns toward the Guru and then follows the Guru as it is carried out. Each face is a different expression of devotion; not idolatry. If I were Rembrandt I would paint those faces because I can only remember the feeling I had watching them, and cannot remember each face or expression. Think how wonderful it is that these are the devotees so many hundreds of years later.

Thank you for your post, nonetheless. It reminds us of how we can go over the edge.

Dear Tony Ji,

Thanks for your comments. What I am saying is the practical experience of ritualism. I have a separate room in my house for AGGS and have a canopy etc and my sons too in their homes. It is the commercialism and idolatory which bothers me. Every thing I have written has a story behind it. I have been involved in setting up first Gurudwaras in vatious towns and seen fights over rituals or funds. I have seen Romalas being resold through the dealers back and forth and have also seen problem in the Gurudwaras how to dispose them when overloaded. It also creates a superstition in the fullfilment of desires or bribing the Guru. These are against the tenets of the faith.

To me respect to AGGS is following what is written there in thought, word, and deed.

Cordially,

Virinder

virinder ji

Your answer is beautiful in its simplicity. I for one moment in my life would like to be part of the opening of a new gurdwara. What a moving experience. Too bad that it can be marred by the egotism of people who know in their hearts that something else should be true in their actions and motives.

Antonia

aad0002 said:

virinder ji

Your answer is beautiful in its simplicity. I for one moment in my life would like to be part of the opening of a new gurdwara. What a moving experience. Too bad that it can be marred by the egotism of people who know in their hearts that something else should be true in their actions and motives.

Antonia

Click to expand...

Antonia Ji,

My younger brother was the prime mover behind setting up a brand new Gurdwara in the Boston MA area....the Guru Nanak Darbaar. He went to the USA to do his Basic Degree and then his Masters and then his Phd...and in his spare time he put his energies into setting up the GND from ground ZERO. His experiences are in the Commemorative Edition of the magazine the GND published..and for me were a revelation...there is such a moving and spiritual experience involved..and to hear him tell it to us now hes back..are like a shower of Blessings..... I pray that soemday..YOU may be in such a situation....and set up a New Gurdwara in your neighbourhood...!!:ice::ice::ice:

Gyani ji

That is a great background story. it has to be spiritually moving. And my regards to your brother -- a hero in my book. My husband actually keeps saying that I should motivate people to start a Gurdwara near-by. Maybe even a little one...?

1. There is a tendency for soem overzealous ones to take.."respect and satikaar for SGGS" overboard.
The SRM states that the SGGS must be parkash in a clean place..sweet smelling perfumes can be used..the rumalls must be clean..etc etc..THE BEST of the very BEST MUST be provided....
ALL in attendance MUST be clean - surroundings must be clean...all this is a MUST....no two ways about that....and alwasy the BEST rumallahs, chandni, palki etc..THE SGGS is the SACHA PATSHAH..embodiment of the CREATOR the Akal Purakh.

BUT....telling peple the SGGS "needs" thin rumallahs in Summer..and thick ones in winter..placing bottles of water under the palki....massaging the wooden legs of the palki..etc etc are meaningless rituals/idolatory behaviour - not sanctioned by GURBANI or SRM. Also over contribution towards rumallhas..chadras..palkis..etc and all that is also a waste of RESOURCES. Commercialised PAKHANDEES make tons of money out of these...re-selling rumallahs over and over again....over emphasis ON RITUAL/keeping Gurbani COVERED and AWAY from the Sangat....makes us idol worshippers...SGGS is GYAAN....and GYAAN should always be OPEN TO ALL.:ice::ice::ice:

aad0002 said:

Gyani ji

That is a great background story. it has to be spiritually moving. And my regards to your brother -- a hero in my book. My husband actually keeps saying that I should motivate people to start a Gurdwara near-by. Maybe even a little one...?

Click to expand...

Antonia Ji..

IF you provide me your postal address I will post you a copy of their Commemorative Magazine. Alternativley..IF you are anywhere nearby this place..Guru Nanak Darbar Boston MEDFORD MA
http://www.gurunanakdarbar.net/..you may be able to get a copy sooner ( that is if they still have one in stock). It makes good reading and a good experience for anyone wanting to set up a Gurdwara and how to run it well...my brother is Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon.
The more i think about it..the more i want to support your hubby....YOU are the best person to start one...can think of no one better suited...it would be great...so maybe..its time to start planning....begin small..and go on...Chardeekalla !!always.

Gyani ji

I will send my postal address by private message. But also, I will check the internet site of the Gurdwara Sahib, and if they have a copy and respond, you will know right away. Boston is about an 8 hour drive if one drives at normal speeds. Some do it it 5 1/2 hours :crazy: Taking an airplane with the long waits for security makes flying there ridiculous -- though once it was a pleasant, short trip by airplane.

How proud you must be of your brother!

My husband has been saying this since we first met -- and half the time I think it can be done, and the other half it seems unrealistic. But this is a good example of how doubt gets in the way, isn't it.

Guru Fateh! and Thank you!

Antonia Kaur Ji,

It will be much much cheaper fro me to post the copy to you..and less trouble.
Its on the way...
Glad to be of some help..in dispelling any doubts that remain..this may be your DESTINY !! establsih a Gurdwara !!
Chardeekalla always...:welcome:

It may be that is my destiny. And if it is you will be an honored guest. :welcome::yes:

Dear Tony & Giani Ji,

I have my life experiences. Being a doctor, serving in the villages of Punjab in floods as a doctor, serving in the Indian Army, being a prisnor of war for few months in China, getting married to a woman who went to Harminder Sahib every morning for a dip in the holy tank for years, bringing AGGS in the home. Even though I did my nitname from the age of 12 but had no knowledge of AGGS and started reading It and finished in one year and then celebrated bringing the friends all over togather for a day in USA.

I was the only one in the State of Michigan who had AGGS in 1966. The first Gurudwara in Michigan in the town of Detroit was started in 1968. Now there are 5 in the same town. Hear about the local fights but stay out of these controversaries.

Then it took me 20+ years to set up a Sikh Chair at the University of Michigan by collecting 1.2 million dollars. This experience taught me a lot, which may be discussed some other time.

I retired from practice in 1998 after being an associate professor of Surgery at Michigan State University. Then I went to Punjab 2 months a year to do charity work. In 2003 I had two back surgeries and could not travel for some time. But then I helped in opening a free clinic for those who do not have insurance or money in town.

All this did not stop my studying and learning of my faith. In the early stages I had to explain to the Americans who I am and about my faith questions were asked.

I have been on different forums. SD management are my friends but they told me that my posts are long so I moved to LZ-where there were few insulting persons drifting from the topic. Teji Ji brought me to this forum. I am enjoying as there are no restrictions.

With regards.

Virinder

Virinderji

Welcome once again. You have been offering an education to people like me who are hungry for serious discussion. :star:

Dear Virender Ji ,

WJKK WJKF

I am really moved by the sort of Sewa u have put in . One more thing which is really close to my heart is the translation of GURU GRANTH DARPAN by Prof.Sahib Singh Ji in English . This project was taken up by Dr.Avtar Singh Dhami ji but he had to quit due to personal problems . As the task is an enormous one I recently met S.Gursagar Singh Ji , director of Singh Brothers , Amritsar which is a renowned publishing house & quite capable of doing it . But maybe paucity of funds is stopping him from doing so . If our members can in anyway contribute towards this cause this will be wonderful . If anybody wishes to take up this job, I'm willing to pitch in.

Gursagar Singh Ji can be contacted at

info@singhbrothers.com
www.singhbrothers.com

Regards,
Dalbir Singh

Dear Dalbir Ji,

It would have been a pleasure to be associated with such a marvelous idea that the translations available are more are less literal. I try to rephrase them as much as possible but requires lot of work.

I will be 75 shortly. It is a well known fact that the present global financial fact effected every one. My retirement funds are wiped out and at this age I am looking for a job. Either I am too qualified or not young enough to qualify for any position in my field or malpractice is not available.

May be times will change then I will do be in touch with you for this cause.

Thanks.

Virinder

Dear Khalsa Ji,

As I understand, Idol is somethink physical, that is worshiped by some as the 'Absolute' or as the representative of the 'Absolute'. This physical entity has a shape and weight and is visible to the humans.

Now I come to Siri Guru Granth Sahib. The Granth is revered by Sikhs and many others. This Granth Has form and weight , when I bow to Siri Guru Granth Sahib, the person who watched me and not knowing the thought that is in my mind, wrongly conclude that I am a worshiper of the form 'Akaar' and asked me that he understands that Sikhs worship the formless. This doubt in his percetion needed explaination. I told this person that I am not bowing to the Physical form of Siri Guru Granth Sahib but to the spiritual knowledge that is contained in it. We all know that knowledge is formless, intangile, i.e. Nirakaar'.

The person was not yet satisfied, he fired the next question. Why you keep pillows below the granth? I told him that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib contains the Knowledge that we are seeking and we want to keep the Granth in good physical state so that we can read it again and again, if you see me reading any book I donot open it more that say 120 deg. This to not to stress the binding. This is achived by keeping Siri Guru Granth Sahib on on a small bed like structure with piloows on either side.

The person was still not satisfied another question he fires. What do you clothe it by a cover? I told him that Siri Guru Granth Sahib is normally kept in open space like a room or a hall, where it can be affected by the blowing wind. When some one is reading, she or he can take care of the the pages from flying over, but when it is not being read and thus not attended, the wind, depending on its strength can tear the pages, which we donot want. To protect Siri Guru Granth Sahib from such damge, it is important for us to cover it with heavy cloth, what we call as Rumalai.

The way we keep Siri Guru Granth Sahib all is designed to prolong the life of the each copy of Siri Guru Granth Sahib; we open it also from the middle of the set of pages. In scholl we were advised to open all the books it a similar way where one does not want the stress the binding.

i further added that my bowing to Siri Guru Granth Sahib conveys to the children that Siri Guru Granth Sahib is an object of reverenve for the family. They follow and bow to Siri Guru Granth Sahib, as the grow we tell them all that I have elaborated above. After all their mental ability cannot grasp the concept of formless. we have to introduce them to the form and them bring them over to formless. Our Guru Sahibs were great, they knew all, and they passed it on to their Sikhs.

The person was convined or not I do not know, but no further question come from him.

Just to add humour, I told this person, we do not give bath to Siri Guru Granth Sahib, the idol worshiper do that.

We both laugh and the discussion is over.

I concluded by saying that we Sikhs are worsipers of 'Nirakaar', the 'Formless', the 'Essence' i.e. 'The Sat'.

To my fellow Sikhs, I want to say that if weow to the spiritual knowledge contained in Siri Guru Granth Sahib, then only we worship 'The Nirakaar'.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh

Dear Amarpal Ji,

Your thoughtful, constructive and relevant answers are highly appreciated. Please keep it up.

Thanks.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal