Charitropakhyan Charitropakhyan - Written By Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

[Seeker2013]

Moved this post out of the 'Is Dasam Granth Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Bani' thread to this new thread in the appropriate sub-forum for members who want to talk about it, specifically. -Ishna

From Sikhiwiki article on Charitropakhyan
"The common misconception is that Charitropakhyan has brought females to disrepute by highlighting their negative character. This isn't true because such select depictions are for the Manmukhi and Durmati females, while there are others that include positive depiction of Gurmukhi females.

For instance, in Charitar 266 a woman defies the rituals and does not indulge in idol worship (Gurmukhi character) while in Charitar 349/21316 a Durmati woman character is shown which uses religious things as a pretext to do immoral acts."

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I would REALLY love for this to be true... however majority of the Charitars have the final lines saying something to the effect that women should not be trusted, or only God knows the limits of the wiles of women etc. It never says *some* women and take a look at this one which is the final lines in Charitar #11:

Basically it says to Singhs, never let a woman *any woman* know what is on your mind (meaning never share secrets with any women) However, it tells the Singhs to know what is women's minds. Then it clarifies even more, once a woman knows your secrets, it must no longer be a secret otherwise you will have to repent... Its telling men its ok to keep secrets from women (even their wives) even when those secrets are against morality like cheating on their wife etc. It tells the men KNOW what the women are keeping in their mind, but if they share any secret of theirs with women, then its basically accusing the women of gossiping and not keeping anything secret. Meaning they will have to repent (own up to) what they were holding secret.

Charitropakhyan makes it ok to publicly condemn women in general as being deceitful and immoral. And MANY Singhs are using it to put women down in general.

 

[swarn bains]

these are kathakar and wrfiters who messed up dasam granth. today' s dasam granth is not worth the paper it is written on. woman is mother of man, that means he must have some qualities of his mother. If a woman cannot be trusted then her son a man also cannot be trusted. Perticularly those who wrote agains women. I heard a katha by late hardev singh being present there. he said twice je tivien the gut na patto. oh was c nahi aaondian. so these are the people who blame women and write about women. some even dared to write for dasam grant. shame on those writers and the publioshers as well. this present day dasam granth should be bannend by law.not to trust a woman is absurd. it is generally written by those lustful so called saints. never forgive them. thanks harkian jee s s a

 

[swarn bains]

harkiran jee i see your flag is a canadian. today I am also in canada just moved a week ago, do not know how long i will be here if they allow me to stay

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I should clarify I am not against all of dasam granth as some banis are not in dispute like Jaap Sahib etc. But the fact is that dasam granth was compiled (as a single granth) after Guru Gobind Singh Ji left this world by Bhai Mani Singh Ji, based on transcripts that were all separate, left by our Guru. That already leaves plenty of room for error because:

1) There is easily a chance to surreptitiously insert transcripts which may have had nothing to do with Guru Ji
2) Even if Guru Ji DID write these retold HIndu stories down, there is no evidence to say he wanted them to become gurbani (for example, perhaps they were his own personal writings for his own study? I have my own hand written copies of writings paraphrased from other religions in my apartment, because I study all religion...if I passed and left these, someone could easily think I believed them and intended to spread that message as my own, which would not be true.)
3) The messages in Charitars goes against Gurbani. Gurbani speaks about equality of all humans, and that a true judge only judges himself (or herself) while charitropakhyan paints the female gender as the deceivers and immoral ones in the world and comes straight out to tell men to never trust any women ever, even those who are close to them (like their own wives). It paints a very overt message that the female gender is inherently lustful and will stop at nothing (including murder) to get what she wants (which is usually sex in the stories).
This attitude can be seen in certain Rehetnamas, like Chaupa Singh's, where he comes straight out and tells Singhs to NEVER trust ANY woman, even his own wife. I am not saying that Cahupa Singh was influenced by the Charitropakhyan, as I don't know the dates of his rehetnama compared to when dasam granth was compiled. However I just wanted to point out that the attitude of never trusting women was certainly prevalent at that time.
4) If the Charitropakhyan was meant to convey immorality in general and not limited to women, then why are vast majority of the 404 stories about women, and why are the moral messages at the bottom nearly ALL stating the same things... that men are not to trust women, and that women's deceit knows no boundaries. Certainly if the purpose was to covey immorality in general by both genders, then half the stories would be about devious men where the moral message would be geared for women to not trust those men. But its not... the finger points squarely at women only for the vast majority of the charitars - even those ones which kind of sort of put men as the bad guy.
5) Several of the stories actually condone violence against women, describing 'severe beatings' against the main female character (beatings which are not reprimanded at all) and when she snaps and kills her attackers, she is the one who made to look bad, as the moral message at the end is that even the Gods can not know the limits of women's deceit (pointing to the trick she used to kill her attacker.) The severe beatings that caused her to snap, are not spoken against at all. So the message becomes, it's perfectly ok to beat a woman, but if she kills you in self defence, its her who is immoral. (you can see that example in Charitar #10)

I almost wish I had not read the charitropakhyan... because if Guru Gobind Singh Ji DID write it, then he certainly thought lowly of everyone who was unlucky enough to be born with two X chromosomes.

 

[Ishna]

I was reading them recently too, and it struck me just how caricatured the stories are. I haven't read them all, obviously. But it became clear that they make a mockery of women and men. Actually, to be more specific, they use hyperbole to highlight the ramifications of poor behaviour by both genders.

It's clear from the start that the stories are just that - stories.

With regard to the Arril, well, the best idea is to just keep your secrets to yourself, period.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

With regard to the Arril, well, the best idea is to just keep your secrets to yourself, period.

I am of the thought that if a marriage is built on keeping secrets from each other, then you've already failed in that marriage.

I also don't find that men are pointed the finger at in vast majority of the stories. It's the woman who is the adulterer and murderer in most of them. It's the woman who is the one begging for sex and threatening to use lies to call the raja a thief if he doesn't give in for example, or its the woman who has two lovers a fat old one and a slim young one and cheats on both etc. In vast majority of the stories, it's bear impossible to switch out the genders because, the situations are those where in that time especially, the woman was the one who stayed home with the baby while the man went away for work etc. So in one charitar, where the woman kills her son to appease her lover she was cheating on her husband with, it would be hard to put the husband as the one at home while she was away. The only thing the men get painted as, are gullible for not realizing what deceit and immorality their wives etc are up to. The difference is, the men are painted as victims (gullible) while the women are painted as evil (deliberately deceiving and immoral).
The moral message in all of them as well, directly says don't trust women (with secrets etc) and never the opposite. It's clearly aimed at men, a message to create distrust and contempt towards women in general.

 

[Kully]

There is a chapter in Mehma Parkash where the author writes that some of contents (I can't remember which but charitropakhan was one) were translations of sanskrit texts which were retold in Brij by Guru Gobind Singh.

I should clarify I am not against all of dasam granth as some banis are not in dispute like Jaap Sahib etc.
.

Even this bani called jaap sahib is disputed. What other banis do you feel are not disputed?

 

[swarn bains]

gureu Gobins singh's banis in dasam granth are
jaap sahibs, abad hazare, akal ustat, chaupaie kavio wach, zafarnama and koe aankh tare nahien aanieo , mein n kiho sabh tohe bikhanio i do not remember the start of this. rest is by other people

 

[Kully]

gureu Gobins singh's banis in dasam granth are
jaap sahibs, abad hazare, akal ustat, chaupaie kavio wach, zafarnama and koe aankh tare nahien aanieo , mein n kiho sabh tohe bikhanio i do not remember the start of this. rest is by other people

On what basis do you deem these to be Guru Krit and not the other compositions?

 

[swarn bains]

if you have dasam granth then tell me which article or poetry you want to be explained. i have dasam granth and i can understand it to some degree because most of the language is brige bhasha from mathura area. so please advise me which subject you are referring to

 

[Kully]

The ones you have omitted from your list, Sir.

Sorry I haven't have dasam granth.

 

[swarn bains]

may be swayeah, rest is all by other people including vachitar natak and chandi de war

 

[Kully]

may be swayeah, rest is all by other people including vachitar natak and chandi de war

Any particular reason why you deem these to be of anothers hand?

 

[swarn bains]

You are asking question after question question with a question with no header. So please tell me what subject or topic you are asking about and then what and how much you know about that perticular episode, then I will answer what I know and I think sorry about that

 

[Kully]

You are asking question after question

Please do not feel perturbed by these questions in any manner. I only ask to increase my own knowledge.

I am interested to know why you feel that some of the writings you have listed, you feel are not the 10th Gurus whereas you feel some are. I am interested as to how you came to that conclusion.

Pardon my inquisitiveness Sir.

 

[swarn bains]

I will give you some knowledge which is not available in the normal books. Firstly the stories which come ot of Banaras are for the sake of making money.
The so called devtas ruled patliputar and east of river ganges was their kingdom. their revered king was Inder most notorious person and they called him god of gods. There were other kings west of ganges. they used to attack patliputar. the pundits had a pen in their hand and they started calling them rakshash. so for now the kings west of ganges are called rakshash because they used to rob devtas ruled land.
there was a fight between inder and mehkha sur's father and inder killed him. that was the cause of a fight between inder and mehkhasur called rakshash. and that is the story of vachitar naatak.
this story is depicted in markande puran. these scholars from banaras added this story to dasam granth and advertised that it was written by guru Gobind singh.
after 1984 riots the hindus started a serial of vichatar naatak and it was being played all over punjab, because they wanted to prove that guru Gobind singh was a hindu.
learning is by reading books and literature, then if you have any doubt, put the questions on this site. someone will answer it. that is the real way, because you want a lot and yet you do not have a clue what you are looking for. you only heard the name of dasam granth, that is about it

 

[Tejwant Singh]

It is interesting to notice how we pick and choose from DG in a subjective manner as individuals. As a contrast, the Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru is objective and we know who wrote what unlike in DG.

I am not arrogant enough to claim which poetry is from Guru Gobind Singh in DG and which is not. I respect our 10th Guru's decision wholeheartedly by not adding his poetry in the SGGS but only his Dad's; Guru Teg Bahadur's.

How dare we second guess our 10th Guru? Are we that arrogant?

His decision should be respected because he is the jyot of Nanak.

 

[Kully]

I will give you some knowledge which is not available in the normal books. Firstly the stories which come ot of Banaras are for the sake of making money.
The so called devtas ruled patliputar and east of river ganges was their kingdom. their revered king was Inder most notorious person and they called him god of gods. There were other kings west of ganges. they used to attack patliputar. the pundits had a pen in their hand and they started calling them rakshash. so for now the kings west of ganges are called rakshash because they used to rob devtas ruled land.
there was a fight between inder and mehkha sur's father and inder killed him. that was the cause of a fight between inder and mehkhasur called rakshash. and that is the story of vachitar naatak.
this story is depicted in markande puran. these scholars from banaras added this story to dasam granth and advertised that it was written by guru Gobind singh.
after 1984 riots the hindus started a serial of vichatar naatak and it was being played all over punjab, because they wanted to prove that guru Gobind singh was a hindu.
learning is by reading books and literature, then if you have any doubt, put the questions on this site. someone will answer it. that is the real way, because you want a lot and yet you do not have a clue what you are looking for. you only heard the name of dasam granth, that is about it

Very interesting. You are stating that the story of vachitar natak is the fight between inder and mehkasur. Where in vachitar natak is the story about the fight? I would be greatly obliged if you could give a page/verse number to help me locate it.

Please could you elaborate on these scholars from banaras and how they advertised thier works as Guru Sahibs?

Why would the Hindus start a serial on vichatar natak when it contains the following:

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥
Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.


ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ
Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥
But they considered themselves all in all and asked the people to worship them.9.


I have never heard of Hindus starting any serial by this name and would be obliged Sir, if you could share more info on it.

I want to increase my learning by asking learning people such as yourself, and anybody who would liek to volunteer information. I am always grateful for replies recieved. I do apologise profusely if this seems like I am asking a lot. Yes Sir, my knowledge of dasam granth is quite poor, that I acknowledge openly.

 

[swarn bains]

If one does not search and contemplate then how we all will be able to find what is right or wrong. anyone who reads dasam granth tries to analyze it if he has any brain or mind for it. those who have not even seen dg are calling others arrogant. get into dg and find out and contemplate in your mind who is arrogant and who is a saint. here i am the one answering dg and i have two persons with two different views about what i said. i am sure you have not seen or understood dg. read it and them blame someone else if you can put up some effort and argument
next subject is sggs and banis in it. if you read it seriously, you will find a certain rightam to it and certain belief in it and one line of thought. Guru Gobind singh has one stanza in sggs page 1429 in saloks and that fits in that ritham and rime. that is why he put it there. many people brought their potery to put in sggs and many of them were rejected because their poetry did not rime with sggs . so is guru Gobind singh's own bani