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<blockquote data-quote="Ambarsaria" data-source="post: 150461" data-attributes="member: 14194">Ishna ji great topic and inquiry.&nbsp; Just some thoughts.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; I recognize that there are two views of how things happen.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; One is causal, like you light fire to dry grass, it burns.&nbsp; We get to see so much in every day life that we start believing it to be all given to a high degree say 95%+.&nbsp; An extension of the same is that when things happen and there is no explanation, the general fall back is it is all deterministic except we have not uncovered how’s and why’s?&nbsp; So it forms a belief system in oneself.&nbsp; <ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Such a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; person with this understanding may pray but its generic value will be&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; minimal at a personal level whether they pray within or without.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Such a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; person may pray for someone in a group or otherwise without a person’s/group’s/entity’s&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; involvement, the effect may still be limited.</li>
</ul>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; The other view, in Sikhism, there is the Gurbani view starting from Mool Mantar and carried forward as a common thread.&nbsp; Let us revisit the mool mantar,&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The area to focus on is the underlying timelessness and vastness of creator and associated creation.&nbsp; So in this creation; you, me or any person is not going to know all.&nbsp; Included in that is how the thoughts impact chemistry and biology in life.&nbsp; The life of human beings, animals, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Let us look at it little further in humans.&nbsp; The thoughts of happiness create a chemical response and associated physical sensations that we observe perhaps some of.&nbsp; There is a whole vastness of activity within this complex that we personally do not have the knowledge of or experience in observing at micro level.&nbsp; This activity continues day and night perhaps much like,&nbsp; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhE8ScWe7w&amp;feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank">‪Spectacular Starling Flock‬&amp;rlm;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - YouTube</a>


&nbsp; Let us now recognize how the flock moves in nuancing ways.&nbsp; Could we internally be much different.&nbsp; What is flowing inside?&nbsp; Is it affected by our conscious and unconscious thoughts.&nbsp; Of course it is.&nbsp; Is prayer at a personal level a collection of thoughts?&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; So such actions have consequences known or unknown but consequences.&nbsp; Do we know all the positives and negatives, absolutely not.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; For me a prayer is much internal thought.&nbsp; Reinforcing the truths in Gurbani and guidance thereof.&nbsp; Can it have a positive effect, quite likely.&nbsp; Can I prove it, no.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; When we pray collectively with words uttered and in unison, does it have effects, absolutely.&nbsp; Can we quantify those all the time, no.&nbsp; Knowing the infinity of unknown, could some effects be dramatically positive, quite possible.&nbsp; Would some or most of the times the effects will be unobservable, quite likely.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; So praying in Sikhism generally directs towards much of the unknown.&nbsp; Not with a promise or prize, but simply to show how much is happening that we do not know.&nbsp; Persistence of praying through the ages perhaps is a collective wisdom of humanity that it has shown positive effects.&nbsp; Hence it has prevailed from way way long ago and throughout way way different lands and peoples.&nbsp; It is no proof and it is no holy grail, just how it may be!&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Sorry I ramble sometimes and posts are long.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Sat Sri Akal.PS:&nbsp; Many people may think that somehow they can cut a deal with the creator.&nbsp; They donate say $5 in donation while bowing and praying, and there prayer may include to request a lottery win, etc.&nbsp; There is a saying , &quot; you can fool some of the people some of the times, but you cannot fool all the people all the time&quot;.&nbsp; So the creator has known the math of converting $5 into say $1 million, a Mercedes, a House, etc.&nbsp; So people need to rise up and don&#039;t treat creator like a fool!&nbsp; No offence.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ambarsaria, post: 150461, member: 14194"] Ishna ji great topic and inquiry. Just some thoughts. I recognize that there are two views of how things happen. One is causal, like you light fire to dry grass, it burns. We get to see so much in every day life that we start believing it to be all given to a high degree say 95%+. An extension of the same is that when things happen and there is no explanation, the general fall back is it is all deterministic except we have not uncovered how’s and why’s? So it forms a belief system in oneself. [LIST] [*]Such a person with this understanding may pray but its generic value will be minimal at a personal level whether they pray within or without. [*]Such a person may pray for someone in a group or otherwise without a person’s/group’s/entity’s involvement, the effect may still be limited. [/LIST] The other view, in Sikhism, there is the Gurbani view starting from Mool Mantar and carried forward as a common thread. Let us revisit the mool mantar, The area to focus on is the underlying timelessness and vastness of creator and associated creation. So in this creation; you, me or any person is not going to know all. Included in that is how the thoughts impact chemistry and biology in life. The life of human beings, animals, etc. Let us look at it little further in humans. The thoughts of happiness create a chemical response and associated physical sensations that we observe perhaps some of. There is a whole vastness of activity within this complex that we personally do not have the knowledge of or experience in observing at micro level. This activity continues day and night perhaps much like, [CENTER][CENTER][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhE8ScWe7w&feature=player_detailpage"]‪Spectacular Starling Flock‬&rlm; - YouTube[/url] [/CENTER] [/CENTER] Let us now recognize how the flock moves in nuancing ways. Could we internally be much different. What is flowing inside? Is it affected by our conscious and unconscious thoughts. Of course it is. Is prayer at a personal level a collection of thoughts? Absolutely. So such actions have consequences known or unknown but consequences. Do we know all the positives and negatives, absolutely not. For me a prayer is much internal thought. Reinforcing the truths in Gurbani and guidance thereof. Can it have a positive effect, quite likely. Can I prove it, no. When we pray collectively with words uttered and in unison, does it have effects, absolutely. Can we quantify those all the time, no. Knowing the infinity of unknown, could some effects be dramatically positive, quite possible. Would some or most of the times the effects will be unobservable, quite likely. So praying in Sikhism generally directs towards much of the unknown. Not with a promise or prize, but simply to show how much is happening that we do not know. Persistence of praying through the ages perhaps is a collective wisdom of humanity that it has shown positive effects. Hence it has prevailed from way way long ago and throughout way way different lands and peoples. It is no proof and it is no holy grail, just how it may be! Sorry I ramble sometimes and posts are long. Sat Sri Akal. [B][U]PS[/U]:[/B] Many people may think that somehow they can cut a deal with the creator. They donate say $5 in donation while bowing and praying, and there prayer may include to request a lottery win, etc. There is a saying , " you can fool some of the people some of the times, but you cannot fool all the people all the time". So the creator has known the math of converting $5 into say $1 million, a Mercedes, a House, etc. So people need to rise up and don't treat creator like a fool! No offence. [/QUOTE]

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