Opinion Physical Existence Or Only Metaphorical References To Devi, Devtas (Deities) In Guru Granth Sahib?

[Kully]

The Gurus never acknowledged that devis existed (which can be seen as demi-Gods or lesser deities) nor did avatars, deities.

Yes the Guru's absolutely beleived that the devi devte exist. It's very apparent from Gurbani.

Even many Hindus openly say they don't see them as tangible actual entities that existed, but rather they see them as a symbol that helps them visualize certain aspects of the Creator.

Many Hindus openly say that the Sikh Panth is a part of the wider Hindu Panth. So what?

The references to these in SGGSJ are in a metaphorical / allegorical sense because the larger audience at the time it was written knew what these symbols stood for and so they would recognize the symbolism in Gurbani.

Not all of the references are. Some may be but it is absurd to say that all of them are.

 

[Sikhilove]

Yeah they did/do exist. Avtars loke Vishnu and Brahma incarnated on earth and took various names.

Read Sri Dasam Granth ji

Devis and devte now exist in heaven realms etc

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Yeah they did/do exist. Avtars loke Vishnu and Brahma incarnated on earth and took various names.

Read Sri Dasam Granth ji

Devis and devte now exist in heaven realms etc

It's actually Dasam Granth that we are debating LOL since the idea of multiple deities goes against the very idea of Ik Onkar, quotes from all the Gurus and many shabads in SGGSJ. Since its DG that we are debating as being against the very idea of Guru Nanaks Ik Onkar, then we can't use DG as a proof... If you know what I am saying?

 

[Sikhilove]

Hi Harkiran

Gurbani says there are millions of Vishnus, Brahmas and other demo gods. His creation is infinite. Not only that, there are also millions of darker beings.

In a creation that is infinite you cannot limit Him to having created just human beings..

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Hi Harkiran

Gurbani says there are millions of Vishnus, Brahmas and other demo gods. His creation is infinite. Not only that, there are also millions of darker beings.

In a creation that is infinite you cannot limit Him to having created just human beings..

I have no doubt there are other planets, with other beings etc. But they are not demi Gods... only Waheguru is God. We can label entities anything we want but Mool Mantra is clear, God does not take birth in this world - not as an avatar or aspect etc. or however you want to look at it. The fact that it uses 's' at the end of Vishnus and Brahmas etc is telling... that means these entities are NOT our Creator They are labels we have been putting on ideas, on idols etc.

But nothing which exists INSIDE creation, can be 'wholly' God. And everything inside creation IS God. No being is higher than any other. Its like saying one character in my dream is 'more me' than another. In reality they are BOTH equally me because its MY MIND who is creating them both. Neither is fully me.

 

[Harry Haller]

so is there a god of death?

 

[Sikhilove]

I have no doubt there are other planets, with other beings etc. But they are not demi Gods... only Waheguru is God. We can label entities anything we want but Mool Mantra is clear, God does not take birth in this world - not as an avatar or aspect etc. or however you want to look at it. The fact that it uses 's' at the end of Vishnus and Brahmas etc is telling... that means these entities are NOT our Creator They are labels we have been putting on ideas, on idols etc.

But nothing which exists INSIDE creation, can be 'wholly' God. And everything inside creation IS God. No being is higher than any other. Its like saying one character in my dream is 'more me' than another. In reality they are BOTH equally me because its MY MIND who is creating them both. Neither is fully me.

Hi Harkiran

Yes, demi gods of course is a label. like I said, they were created and Their purpose was to teach truth, but instead, many caused only themselves to be worshipped instead of God/ Sat.

God sat for many ages and realised himself to be Sat. Sat is the master and God was the first Truth knower.

He wanted to gift another with what he had learned and so he created others and gave them this opportunity- he expanded himself and created the khel, a playground we can learn what He did In a fraction of the time.

The drop is in the ocean and the ocean is in the drop..in self discovery, we discover we Are him- we Are Nothing- we are the Whole.

In discovering this, we don't say, worship me- the Bhagats and the Gurus say, worship and practice Truth and discover it for youself. Hence Baba Nanak Ji described himself as a lowly worm and lowest of the low.

Gurbani Is there to teach us Truth principals and for us to apply them and to discover Truth for ourselves. Demi Gods were meant to be our mentors and teachers but many used Sat and what they had learned for selfish purposes.

 

[Harry Haller]

but many used Sat and what they had learned for selfish purposes.

is that not a contradiction in terms, if they had truly found Sat they would not be such people.

 

[Sikhilove]

is that not a contradiction in terms, if they had truly found Sat they would not be such people.

You can experience Sat and then fall, many Bhagats have in the past and many will continue to do so.

Krishna spoke a lot of truth but also messed around with gopis.

Sat doesn't change but people can. That's a huge lesson to be learned. That Truth is the master, not the individual. You don't want to worship a corrupt baba as a saint or whatever just because he's teaching truth principles. If he's not putting it into action, he's not a sang, it's simple.

They're the lessons we learn from the teachings about Demi gods and previous teachers who fell like Mohammed.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Just a quick question so we are clear... you dont actually believe that the hindu gods like Krishna were actual deities right? Like supernatural beings? When I said labels I meant ideas like putting a fictional face to a force of nature for example.. and calling it the rain god etc. Gurbani is clear that there is only ONE Creator. All rest are (its) Creation. Anything within that creation has potential to discover truth about our reality, but it doesnt make us 'demi gods' we are still only 'characters' inside the dream as it were and inside the dream there are rules to governing of the Universe. SO when I say that names like Krishna, Indra, etc are labels I meant literally they were only ideas and never actual beings. As far as reaching state of brahamgiani we are told any human has that potential. And if someone does discover the actual truth - they would in essence be ONE with Creator (or self realized) and in that case how can they 'fall'? (Aside from claiming then, essentially that Waheguru / Akal Purakh CAN somehow fall??) Its like a blind person being told all their life the sky is red, but then gaining sight after surgery or something and discovering the sky is really blue. How can they go back after knowing the truth? In this case once the truth is known, there is no falling because of the realization of all of this being illusory and temporary. In other words, how can you fool an illusion? How can you take advantage of someone who is not really there (ego character) when you realize that ALL characters are really the ONE actor (God) playing EVERYONE of us?? Those that you say 'fell' must never have actually realized truth at all then did they? As in false prophets?

 

[Sikhilove]

Hi

Yes this is a Khel, but we are souls, Gubani says he expanded himself. He created the khel to share his discoveries with others- he expanded out of Love.

Every being whether they be human, ghost or Demi God, is a soul or an atom if you will. When we begin to discover truth in Bhagti, we begin to vibrate at a +1 charge, hence beginning our detachment from the illusion and discovering what he did.

Yes we are nothing, but we are beings powered by Love. When we discover truth, we discover who and what we already are which is Nothing. We are projected out of this nothingness. We fall when we forget it. Saints and brahmgyanis can fall in a moment, it's not unheard of. Many including the Demi gods have fallen in list and attachment.

Nirboah and Nirvair are the laws which govern the Truth- remaining all loving and fearless because all is just Him, so what and who is there to fear, admire, be jealous of, be lustful towards, be angry at, be attached to and who's bullshit and slander can we actually believe, when it's all God himself, and we are in fact him and He is us.

As I said in the previous post, Truth is the master, we are all really Truth, the Gurus and teachers have just realised it- hence they are the Truth in form.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

So are yo saying any one of us can be considered a Demi God because we all have souls? I'm not getting what you mean. All I know is Demi god as an actual physical entity does not exist. If you just mean any of us who realize God are Demi gods then ok I can see that. But even then someone who realizes God would never have ego to accept being called anything with 'God' in the name. Gurbani tells us that its only through these 'HUMAN' bodies that we can realize God. Therefore any God-realized entity logically must be human (not some supernatural being).

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ॥

Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.

This human body has been given to you.


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ॥

Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.


(full shabad in quotes below)


In other words, to sum it up, any entity existing within creation is WITHIN GOD / Creator. And God / Creator in turn exists within everything in creation equally as we are manifest projection from Creator (sargun). (Creation was born of the light, and the light is in the creation - SGGSJ) But nothing inside Creation deserves the name "God" wholly as they are still interacting through the 'character' even if they are fully realized, fully detached. Its only from outside the creation unmanifest (nirgun) that God exists as ONE. So we are all part of God, but I don't think we can call ourselves God - or even demi-Gods - no matter how close to truth we are because we are still operating from within the manifest creation. (Think about it if someone becomes fully God realized there is no longer a difference between them and God... So there would be no 'Demi' ...just God) Nothing within this creation exists on the same level as God. (Just like no single character within my dreams at night, can claim they are me - even a demi-me) If you know what I mean, that nothing inside creation is really... real! However I am the consciousness behind all of the characters in my dream. Can I somehow be a demi-god version of myself? Its ALL me in the end!

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
आसा महला ५ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
भई परापति मानुख देहुरीआ ॥
Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
गोबिंद मिलण की इह तेरी बरीआ ॥
Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥
अवरि काज तेरै कितै न काम ॥
Avar kāj ṯerai kiṯai na kām.
Nothing else will work.

ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
मिलु साधसंगति भजु केवल नाम ॥१॥
Mil sāḏẖsangaṯ bẖaj keval nām. ||1||
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||

ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥
सरंजामि लागु भवजल तरन कै ॥
Saraʼnjām lāg bẖavjal ṯaran kai.
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.

ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जनमु ब्रिथा जात रंगि माइआ कै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Janam baritha jāṯ rang mā▫i▫ā kai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
जपु तपु संजमु धरमु न कमाइआ ॥
Jap ṯap sanjam ḏẖaram na kamā▫i▫ā.
I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living.

ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
सेवा साध न जानिआ हरि राइआ ॥
Sevā sāḏẖ na jāni▫ā har rā▫i▫ā.
I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥
कहु नानक हम नीच करमा ॥
Kaho Nānak ham nīcẖ karammā.
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!

ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੪॥
सरणि परे की राखहु सरमा ॥२॥४॥
Saraṇ pare kī rākẖo sarmā. ||2||4||
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! ||2||4||

 

[Sikhilove]

So are yo saying any one of us can be considered a Demi God because we all have souls? I'm not getting what you mean. All I know is Demi god as an actual physical entity does not exist. If you just mean any of us who realize God are Demi gods then ok I can see that. But even then someone who realizes God would never have ego to accept being called anything with 'God' in the name. Gurbani tells us that its only through these 'HUMAN' bodies that we can realize God. Therefore any God-realized entity logically must be human (not some supernatural being).

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ॥

Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.

This human body has been given to you.


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ॥

Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.


(full shabad in quotes below)


In other words, to sum it up, any entity existing within creation is WITHIN GOD / Creator. And God / Creator in turn exists within everything in creation equally as we are manifest projection from Creator (sargun). (Creation was born of the light, and the light is in the creation - SGGSJ) But nothing inside Creation deserves the name "God" wholly as they are still interacting through the 'character' even if they are fully realized, fully detached. Its only from outside the creation unmanifest (nirgun) that God exists as ONE. So we are all part of God, but I don't think we can call ourselves God - or even demi-Gods - no matter how close to truth we are because we are still operating from within the manifest creation. (Think about it if someone becomes fully God realized there is no longer a difference between them and God... So there would be no 'Demi' ...just God) Nothing within this creation exists on the same level as God. (Just like no single character within my dreams at night, can claim they are me - even a demi-me) If you know what I mean, that nothing inside creation is really... real! However I am the consciousness behind all of the characters in my dream. Can I somehow be a demi-god version of myself? Its ALL me in the end!

Read this: Bachitar Natak Granth - An Excerpt

The first time I read that I was around 19 yrs old and it pierced my heart so much that I almost cried.

God himself speaking.