Chaupai Sahib In Rehras Sahib
kggr ji
Chaupai Sahib is not part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It consists of 29 verses taken from the so-called "Dasam Granth." It is part of Nit Nem, and therefore part of the Rehras of Nit Nem, as per the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Hope that answers your question. Daily Rehras is made up of prayers from different sources.
Chaupai Sahib is not part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It consists of 29 verses taken from the so-called "Dasam Granth." It is part of Nit Nem, and therefore part of the Rehras of Nit Nem, as per the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Hope that answers your question. Daily Rehras is made up of prayers from different sources.
That is a controversial question right now. Rather than go into the details of the controversy, suffice it to say that amritdhari are required to recite all of the Nit Nem according to the Sikh Rehat Maryada.
Section 6, Chapter 13, part (p)
Chaupai Sahib is also known as Benti Chaupai, and is part of the Sodar Rehras.
We are Individuals as well as Members of the Khalsa Brotherhood.
As Individuals we can read the ORIGINAL NITNEM as given in the SGGS - first 13 Pannas. The Shabads are TITLED - Jap, Sodar Rehrass and Sohila.
AS Members fo the Khalsa Brotherhood we are under the Panth Parvanit Sikh rehat Maryada 1945 passed by SGPC/Akal Takhat and under that the Rehrass contains Benti Chaupaii, swaiyas and jaap shaib as additions to the Original nitnem in SGGS.
The SRM is man made and can be changed...BUT the importnat thing is its IN FORCE NOW as is so..please follow as is...
As Individuals we can read the ORIGINAL NITNEM as given in the SGGS - first 13 Pannas. The Shabads are TITLED - Jap, Sodar Rehrass and Sohila.
AS Members fo the Khalsa Brotherhood we are under the Panth Parvanit Sikh rehat Maryada 1945 passed by SGPC/Akal Takhat and under that the Rehrass contains Benti Chaupaii, swaiyas and jaap shaib as additions to the Original nitnem in SGGS.
The SRM is man made and can be changed...BUT the importnat thing is its IN FORCE NOW as is so..please follow as is...
kggr ji
as you say,
You are going to hear more than once, read more than once, see a video more than once, regarding that Nit Nem controversy I referred to. But the matter only has to be confusing if we let it be confusing. Gyani has given the exact answer. If you are not amritdhari the complete Nit Nem is not required. If you are amritdhari it is required in the SRM. If you know, as I know, amritdhari who question the SRM mandate, we need to keep in mind that is their right to do so. Again, as Gyani ji has stated, the maryada is man made; therefore we are free to ask questions and point out contradictions. The decisions each one makes will be personal. Some will question the existing Nit Nem but still complete their Nit Nem according to SRM every day. Therefore, it is so important that no one jump to conclusions or criticize. I appreciate your uncomplicated manner of discussion.
To get the big picture on the controversy, you may want to use a search engine to find out about all the sides of the Nit Nem controversy.
as you say,
You are going to hear more than once, read more than once, see a video more than once, regarding that Nit Nem controversy I referred to. But the matter only has to be confusing if we let it be confusing. Gyani has given the exact answer. If you are not amritdhari the complete Nit Nem is not required. If you are amritdhari it is required in the SRM. If you know, as I know, amritdhari who question the SRM mandate, we need to keep in mind that is their right to do so. Again, as Gyani ji has stated, the maryada is man made; therefore we are free to ask questions and point out contradictions. The decisions each one makes will be personal. Some will question the existing Nit Nem but still complete their Nit Nem according to SRM every day. Therefore, it is so important that no one jump to conclusions or criticize. I appreciate your uncomplicated manner of discussion.
To get the big picture on the controversy, you may want to use a search engine to find out about all the sides of the Nit Nem controversy.
- May 9, 2006
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- 5,192
kggr ji
I have wrestled with this controversy myself for some time and have only recently come to my conclusion (that is, my conclusion for the moment!). Maybe hearing some personal account will assist you personally, too.
No matter the authenticity of the entire Dasam Granth, the general consensus is that it is highly probably that some of the texts were written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. That includes Jaap, Chaupai and ten sawaiyas.
Furthermore, they do not appear (to my understanding) to conflict with teachings from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
For a long time I omitted Jaap, Chaupai and Ten Sawaiyas. Partly because when you're learning it's a LOT to take in, especially if you want to read your nitnem every day, and they make the process long in the beginning. And partly because I'm not sure about Dasam Granth. And partly because it made more sense to me to read nitnem as presented at the start of SGGS
But I have recently started including them, and they are very lovely and powerful.
So I would say, if you're unsure, focus on the SGGS bania, don't worry about the others from Dasam Granth -- they'll fall into place if and when the time is right, like they did for me. Read about them, read them, come to your own conclusion.
I have wrestled with this controversy myself for some time and have only recently come to my conclusion (that is, my conclusion for the moment!). Maybe hearing some personal account will assist you personally, too.
No matter the authenticity of the entire Dasam Granth, the general consensus is that it is highly probably that some of the texts were written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. That includes Jaap, Chaupai and ten sawaiyas.
Furthermore, they do not appear (to my understanding) to conflict with teachings from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
For a long time I omitted Jaap, Chaupai and Ten Sawaiyas. Partly because when you're learning it's a LOT to take in, especially if you want to read your nitnem every day, and they make the process long in the beginning. And partly because I'm not sure about Dasam Granth. And partly because it made more sense to me to read nitnem as presented at the start of SGGS
But I have recently started including them, and they are very lovely and powerful.
So I would say, if you're unsure, focus on the SGGS bania, don't worry about the others from Dasam Granth -- they'll fall into place if and when the time is right, like they did for me. Read about them, read them, come to your own conclusion.
If Japji Sahib doesn't change between Amritdhari and non Amritdhari, then why should Rehras Sahib change. My folks suggested me to keep it short but when it comes to Gurbani, more is beautiful. Sampooran Rehras sahib has dohras which demystify many things.
Kanwaljit Singh ji
A great question ! Rehras (as part of the evening Nit Nem) does not change in large part because most of it comes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The entire prayer was written by 4 of our Gurus, who lived before Guru Gobind Singh. Then, Chaupai Sahib is one additional part, believed by some to be penned by Guru Gobind Singh. The prayer is a composed then of bani that most adherents of Guru Granth Sahib would adhere to.
And furthermore you need not worry or be confused becasue the Nitnem on the Fisrt 13 pages of SGGS was REAFFIRMED EXACTLY by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI as it was written ORIGINALLY by Guur Arjun ji Sahib. The SGGS was REAFFIRMED in the Yera 1705...LONG AFTER the Vasakhi of 1699 when Khalsa was Revealed....and YET Guur Gobind Singh Ji DID NOT SEE IT or DEEM IT NECESSARY to make any CHANGES whatsoever to the Original NITNEM and titles of the shabads as in the SGGS.
2. Second point of interest is:...The First 13 pages of SGGS Contain various Shabdas from various Raags..and these CLEARLY CHOSEN Shabads are also REPEATED..when their particular Raag is written. ( This means ALL the shabads are in 2 places....FIRST under the Nitnem pages 1-13....and THEN once more in their OWN respective Raags.)
What this means is that Guru Sahib PICKED OUT these special shabds from the SGGS and placed them together in the Beginning 13 pages of SGGS and put them under the titles of Jap....Sodar Rehrass and Sohila. So theres a PURPOSE behind this segregation..and its NOT random..BUT being placed at the very BEGINNING of SGGS is a clear indication of their Vast IMPORTANCE...Confirmed by Guru Arjun ji and Guru gobind Singh ji.....even after 1699 !!!.
3. SGGS is a authentic as we can get...nothing more authentic than our GURU JI.
However NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL WRITTEN SOURCE/Hukmanmah/REHATNAMAH agrees on the Banis read/how ceremony was carried out/what happened/who did what at Vasakhi 1699. What is abundantly CLEAR is that Every Single document of 1699 onwards is heavily ADULTERATED/CHANGED/ALTERED to reflect the authors own personal prejudices/thinking. So much so that one writes that the WATER came form AMRITSAR SAROVAR ( and was thus already amrit !!)....others say the water came from the nearby SATLUJ !! Some say GGS used One sided Khanda, others double sided khanda, yet others knife !! One says DIWAN CHAND SAHIB put the Patashas in the "Pahul" ( to make it sweet enough to drink..implying that "Pahul/Amrit" is essentailly TASTELESS ?? This essentially CONTRADICTS GURBANI which describes AMRIT as INTRINSICALLY SWEET as NECTAR/HONEY etc ?? Others say it was Mata JITO..who put the patashas..others say it was Mata SAHIB Kaur !! BUT ALL agree that WITHOUT the Patashas to sweeten it..the amrit would ahve been tasteless !! This is Contradictory to Gurbani. The 1945 SRM was an OBVIOUS COMPROMISE...only TIME will tell whether it can stand the test..BUT FOR NOW..its my passionate pleas as is also the plea by Prof darshan Singh ragi to NOT THROW OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER !! ALL thsoe making the LOUDEST nosies about "defendign the SRM" have NOT Followed it at all..not the Taksals, not the AKJ, not the DERAS, Not the nanaksarihthaaths...ALL OF THEM have had their own Individual dera/jathedbandi maryadas vastly DIFFERENT form the SRM...But NOW that they have discovered that the SRM is under siege in its HOMEGROUND - Takhats and SGPC Gurdwaras (due to presence of taksalis, Nanksarihs, and akj trained granthis jathedars in power)...its advantageous to CRY WOLF..whenever Forward thinking Sikhs even think of changing any parts of SRM that are obviously WRONG/In Conflict with SGGS - like on Raagmala, Manglacharans position/Nitnem banis outside SGGS etc etc.. They WANT the Stataus Quo to remain for so long as the crippled SRM is in place..their own Maryadas can carry on !!!
2. Second point of interest is:...The First 13 pages of SGGS Contain various Shabdas from various Raags..and these CLEARLY CHOSEN Shabads are also REPEATED..when their particular Raag is written. ( This means ALL the shabads are in 2 places....FIRST under the Nitnem pages 1-13....and THEN once more in their OWN respective Raags.)
What this means is that Guru Sahib PICKED OUT these special shabds from the SGGS and placed them together in the Beginning 13 pages of SGGS and put them under the titles of Jap....Sodar Rehrass and Sohila. So theres a PURPOSE behind this segregation..and its NOT random..BUT being placed at the very BEGINNING of SGGS is a clear indication of their Vast IMPORTANCE...Confirmed by Guru Arjun ji and Guru gobind Singh ji.....even after 1699 !!!.
3. SGGS is a authentic as we can get...nothing more authentic than our GURU JI.
However NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL WRITTEN SOURCE/Hukmanmah/REHATNAMAH agrees on the Banis read/how ceremony was carried out/what happened/who did what at Vasakhi 1699. What is abundantly CLEAR is that Every Single document of 1699 onwards is heavily ADULTERATED/CHANGED/ALTERED to reflect the authors own personal prejudices/thinking. So much so that one writes that the WATER came form AMRITSAR SAROVAR ( and was thus already amrit !!)....others say the water came from the nearby SATLUJ !! Some say GGS used One sided Khanda, others double sided khanda, yet others knife !! One says DIWAN CHAND SAHIB put the Patashas in the "Pahul" ( to make it sweet enough to drink..implying that "Pahul/Amrit" is essentailly TASTELESS ?? This essentially CONTRADICTS GURBANI which describes AMRIT as INTRINSICALLY SWEET as NECTAR/HONEY etc ?? Others say it was Mata JITO..who put the patashas..others say it was Mata SAHIB Kaur !! BUT ALL agree that WITHOUT the Patashas to sweeten it..the amrit would ahve been tasteless !! This is Contradictory to Gurbani. The 1945 SRM was an OBVIOUS COMPROMISE...only TIME will tell whether it can stand the test..BUT FOR NOW..its my passionate pleas as is also the plea by Prof darshan Singh ragi to NOT THROW OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER !! ALL thsoe making the LOUDEST nosies about "defendign the SRM" have NOT Followed it at all..not the Taksals, not the AKJ, not the DERAS, Not the nanaksarihthaaths...ALL OF THEM have had their own Individual dera/jathedbandi maryadas vastly DIFFERENT form the SRM...But NOW that they have discovered that the SRM is under siege in its HOMEGROUND - Takhats and SGPC Gurdwaras (due to presence of taksalis, Nanksarihs, and akj trained granthis jathedars in power)...its advantageous to CRY WOLF..whenever Forward thinking Sikhs even think of changing any parts of SRM that are obviously WRONG/In Conflict with SGGS - like on Raagmala, Manglacharans position/Nitnem banis outside SGGS etc etc.. They WANT the Stataus Quo to remain for so long as the crippled SRM is in place..their own Maryadas can carry on !!!
Forgive me Gyani ji if I am being a wet rag by asking this question. But is it important to note that the Rehiras on Angs 8 through 12 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is distinct from the Rehras that does include Benti Chaupai/Chaupai Sahib, the evening Nit Nem? I lost my focus a little when reading your last reply. It may not be important.
- May 9, 2006
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Why do forward thinking Sikhs who question the validity / logic / reason behind parts of the SRM still follow those parts and insist others follow them while decrying the contents?
That is very confusing to me. On one hand someone says "follow the SRM, it's all we have" and on the other they say "it's crap".
Why would anyone want to be (officially) amritdhari knowing the state of things?
That is very confusing to me. On one hand someone says "follow the SRM, it's all we have" and on the other they say "it's crap".
Why would anyone want to be (officially) amritdhari knowing the state of things?
What I have written above is a statement of fact. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1705....MORE than 6 years AFTER Vasakhi 1699 ( when the "Amrit banis" of Nitnem are supposed to be read)..
DID NOT SEE FIT to add these to the ORIGINAL NITNEM inside OUR GURU - SGGS on Pannas 1-13. These still contain the Jap, Sodar, So Purakh and Sohila.
Now the question is: IS the SGGS our GURU ?? IF SO..is our GURU INADEQUATE in providing us the NITNEM ? 2. Secondly Do we have Full Faith in SGGS that it is the COMPLETE GURU ? If so then does it provide us the COMPLETE NITNEM ?. SAMPOORAN GURU ?? SAMPOORAN NITNEM ??
SRM - made by the Guru Khalsa Panth in 1945. Contains a type of REHRASS which others call "SHORT" Rehrass. The Damdami Taksaal. other jathebandis, naanksariahs etc etc have a LONGER VERSION..they call it "SAMPOORAN REHRASS"...this contains much more than just the Benti Chaupaii. SO what happened is..SOME "mahapurash"..Sri 108..Baba Jis..Brahmgyanis..Nihungs..decided that the SHORT REHRASS of SRM 1945 is TOO SHORT for their liking...they ADDED more stuff...ARRILLS and dohras from DSM Banis...others added other shabads..and called their verison "SAMPOORAN"....the Question is..WHO DECIDES "SAMPOORAN" ?? is it OUR GURU ?? SGGS ?? did the Sampooran GURU provide the SAMPOORAN rehrass ?? or NO ?? the Brahmgyanis had to FINISH the job for the UNSAMPOORAN GURU ?? we have to decide..its not a question of..more bani..better..feels better..sounds good..blah blah..if so WHY NOT READ the entire 1429 angs daily as NITNEM ?? WHY DID 2 GURUS CHOOSE the Shabads on Pages 1-13 ?? why not make that 26 pages..256 pages..more bani..better ?? EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL is not the answer !!
WE Cant agree on the SAMPOORAN GURU...we cant agree on the SRM 1945...what can we agree on ?? The Sampooran GURU gives us a Most PRACTICAL NITNEM..that almost everyone can do with ease while WORKING and as a Householder...Early Morning Breakfast with Japji...about 7 minutes...evening Sodar and So Purakh....about 10 minutes..at Bed Time Sohila - 3 minutes. Then we added..Jaap, Swaiyahs, some other shbads...Anand sahib FULL...Sukhmani Sahib...asa dee vaar....rehrass had shabads added, benti chaupaii...swaiyahs, arrills, etc etc...more and more time necessary....less and less people doing it..and whats worse is EACH DERA has its very own version...own additions..each jathebandi has its long and shorts...free for all cartwheel....not at all the ideal situation the SAMPOORAN GURU SHOWS US right from 1708 !!! We MUST STOP..and THINK..and RESTRAIN OURSELVES in this free fall situation..and return to the SAMPOORAN GURU.
PS. Since I am retired and thus free..I have 2 sets of daily Nitnems...MY OWN private one following Malaysian standard time ( 08Hrs + GST) and i fully ENJOY the SECOND NITNEM broadcast via satellite from Hazoor sahib/ PTC Chakdeh...AND..Darbar sahib Amritsar via PTC NEWS due to the Indian Time being 2.5 hours BEHIND Malaysian time !! Thus I also enjoy Daily Nitnem form Bangla sahib, Rakabganj Sahib Delhi..Chardikalla TIME TV...as well as MH 1 Muisc...Gurdwaras all over Canada...Patiala..Ludhiana. Via DOORDARSHAN Jalnadhar...etc etc...and i REALLY ENJOY ALL these varying nitnems..short and long rehrasses and all...but a RULE is a RULE..and the SRM should be ONE RULE FOR ALL. I LOOK forward to THAT DAY.
DID NOT SEE FIT to add these to the ORIGINAL NITNEM inside OUR GURU - SGGS on Pannas 1-13. These still contain the Jap, Sodar, So Purakh and Sohila.
Now the question is: IS the SGGS our GURU ?? IF SO..is our GURU INADEQUATE in providing us the NITNEM ? 2. Secondly Do we have Full Faith in SGGS that it is the COMPLETE GURU ? If so then does it provide us the COMPLETE NITNEM ?. SAMPOORAN GURU ?? SAMPOORAN NITNEM ??
SRM - made by the Guru Khalsa Panth in 1945. Contains a type of REHRASS which others call "SHORT" Rehrass. The Damdami Taksaal. other jathebandis, naanksariahs etc etc have a LONGER VERSION..they call it "SAMPOORAN REHRASS"...this contains much more than just the Benti Chaupaii. SO what happened is..SOME "mahapurash"..Sri 108..Baba Jis..Brahmgyanis..Nihungs..decided that the SHORT REHRASS of SRM 1945 is TOO SHORT for their liking...they ADDED more stuff...ARRILLS and dohras from DSM Banis...others added other shabads..and called their verison "SAMPOORAN"....the Question is..WHO DECIDES "SAMPOORAN" ?? is it OUR GURU ?? SGGS ?? did the Sampooran GURU provide the SAMPOORAN rehrass ?? or NO ?? the Brahmgyanis had to FINISH the job for the UNSAMPOORAN GURU ?? we have to decide..its not a question of..more bani..better..feels better..sounds good..blah blah..if so WHY NOT READ the entire 1429 angs daily as NITNEM ?? WHY DID 2 GURUS CHOOSE the Shabads on Pages 1-13 ?? why not make that 26 pages..256 pages..more bani..better ?? EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL is not the answer !!
WE Cant agree on the SAMPOORAN GURU...we cant agree on the SRM 1945...what can we agree on ?? The Sampooran GURU gives us a Most PRACTICAL NITNEM..that almost everyone can do with ease while WORKING and as a Householder...Early Morning Breakfast with Japji...about 7 minutes...evening Sodar and So Purakh....about 10 minutes..at Bed Time Sohila - 3 minutes. Then we added..Jaap, Swaiyahs, some other shbads...Anand sahib FULL...Sukhmani Sahib...asa dee vaar....rehrass had shabads added, benti chaupaii...swaiyahs, arrills, etc etc...more and more time necessary....less and less people doing it..and whats worse is EACH DERA has its very own version...own additions..each jathebandi has its long and shorts...free for all cartwheel....not at all the ideal situation the SAMPOORAN GURU SHOWS US right from 1708 !!! We MUST STOP..and THINK..and RESTRAIN OURSELVES in this free fall situation..and return to the SAMPOORAN GURU.
PS. Since I am retired and thus free..I have 2 sets of daily Nitnems...MY OWN private one following Malaysian standard time ( 08Hrs + GST) and i fully ENJOY the SECOND NITNEM broadcast via satellite from Hazoor sahib/ PTC Chakdeh...AND..Darbar sahib Amritsar via PTC NEWS due to the Indian Time being 2.5 hours BEHIND Malaysian time !! Thus I also enjoy Daily Nitnem form Bangla sahib, Rakabganj Sahib Delhi..Chardikalla TIME TV...as well as MH 1 Muisc...Gurdwaras all over Canada...Patiala..Ludhiana. Via DOORDARSHAN Jalnadhar...etc etc...and i REALLY ENJOY ALL these varying nitnems..short and long rehrasses and all...but a RULE is a RULE..and the SRM should be ONE RULE FOR ALL. I LOOK forward to THAT DAY.
Not at all a rag..wet or dry ji..
1. The Rehrass OUTSIDE of SGGS contains the Shabad DUKH DAROO Rog bahiyah jaan sukh taam na hoi...the Bent Chaupaii ( from dsm granth Charitropakhyan section) Dohra Sagal duar ko chaadd keh aiyoh tuhareh duaar..and Five paurees of ANAND SAHIB. and concluding slok Tera Kita jatoh nahihn found just after Mundawni at the closing of SGGS. This is the SRM Rehrass.
The "longer..sampooran rehrass" of the taksal, akj, nanaksar etc is longer than the SRM one due to further additions from DSM granth Arrills and all.Hope this clarifies.
Ishan ji..
Its a sort of situation where the Baby is in the bath..and the water is full of soap and dirt...so theres something worthwhile keeping..and yet soem crap to be thrown out...the trick is not to throw the crap out with the baby....would you still ask.."Would any woman still want to become a MOTHER in those circumstances ??..i rest my case.icecreammunda
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