Faith

[Ishna]

View attachment 16458

faith

<SUP></SUP>/feɪθ/ Show Spelled [feyth] Show IPA
noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's aility.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.


Ang 90 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :wahkaur:

<TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਾਣਦਾ ॥
हरि की भगता परतीति हरि सभ किछु जाणदा ॥
Har kī bẖagṯā parṯīṯ har sabẖ kicẖẖ jāṇḏā.
The Lord's devotees have faith in Him. The Lord knows everything.
ਹਰਿ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਦਾ ॥
हरि जेवडु नाही कोई जाणु हरि धरमु बीचारदा ॥
Har jevad nāhī ko▫ī jāṇ har ḏẖaram bīcẖārḏā.
No one is as great a Knower as the Lord; the Lord administers righteous justice.
ਕਾੜਾ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ਕਿਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਧਰਮਿ ਮਾਰਦਾ ॥
काड़ा अंदेसा किउ कीजै जा नाही अधरमि मारदा ॥
Kāṛā anḏesā ki▫o kījai jā nāhī aḏẖram mārḏā.
Why should we feel any burning anxiety, since the Lord does not punish without just cause?
ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਰੁ ਹਾਰਦਾ ॥
सचा साहिबु सचु निआउ पापी नरु हारदा ॥
Sacẖā sāhib sacẖ ni▫ā▫o pāpī nar hārḏā.
True is the Master, and True is His Justice; only the sinners are defeated.
ਸਾਲਾਹਿਹੁ ਭਗਤਹੁ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤ ਜਨ ਤਾਰਦਾ ॥੧੮॥
सालाहिहु भगतहु कर जोड़ि हरि भगत जन तारदा ॥१८॥
Sālāhihu bẖagṯahu kar joṛ har bẖagaṯ jan ṯārḏā. ||18||
O devotees, praise the Lord with your palms pressed together; the Lord saves His humble devotees. ||18||


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Why do some Sikhs have such resistance to the word and concept of 'faith'?

If you are a Sikh who is comfortable with 'faith' I would like to hear your thoughts too.

Please discuss.

spnadmin note: I had to resize and reattach the image because it was not displaying correctly in the Spotlight.

 

[spnadmin]

ishna ji

Without belaboring the topic with details - most who resist the idea of faith are reacting to the idea of "blind faith" which conjures up an image of someone who is just going through the motions of believing in God or conforming to the rules of a belief system compulsively.

John Dewey, the American academic psychologist and educational theorist, had a similar idea about morality. He felt that people who follow the rules of morality just because they are rules are not moral. People who follow the rules for fear of punishment in this life or another life are not acting morally. He also argued that people who act from innocence or ignorance of moral choices before them are not moral either.

He described morality as acting in awareness of one's choices between "good" and "evil" and awareness of the reasons why our values guide our behavior. So one would have to make conscious and deliberate moral choices to be a moral person. Morality can never be blind. Extending that to the difference between "faith" and "blind faith" ... one has made a deliberate choice to believe and is aware that one has made that choice without any need or impulse to conform to external pressures or fears of punishment.

To Marthin Luther's point. One takes the first step without seeing the whole staircase because one chooses to. The basis for the choice is probably a very individual thing.

 

[spnadmin]

p/s I think the pauree describes the faith of devotees after they make the choice to believe. I don't think it describes the reasons for believing in the first place.

I can see how the pauree is a very powerful description of how I myself have faith ... because ... and this because is essential.... because I believe there is one creative, timeless. self-existent and eternal reality whose identity is truth itself, who is without fear or enmity. First comes belief in the SatGuru, then follow the feelings described in the pauree. In that order. But that is just me.

 

[Brother Onam]

Quote:
John Dewey, the American academic psychologist and educational theorist, had a similar idea about morality. He felt that people who follow the rules of morality just because they are rules are not moral. People who follow the rules for fear of punishment in this life or another life are not acting morally. He also argued that people who act from innocence or ignorance of moral choices before them are not moral either.

He described morality as acting in awareness of one's choices between "good" and "evil" and awareness of the reasons why our values guide our behavior. So one would have to make conscious and deliberate moral choices to be a moral person. Morality can never be blind. Extending that to the difference between "faith" and "blind faith" ... one has made a deliberate choice to believe and is aware that one has made that choice without any need or impulse to conform to external pressures or fears of punishment.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, then we are a sorry lot indeed" ~ Albert Einstein

 

[Brother Onam]

SPNadmin ji,
I was trying to delete the first reply, but can't figure out how. The second reply cites the quote I was referencing. Thank you.

Fixed. No problem

 

[Harry Haller]

If everything was in the hands of God, then I would have huge buckets of faith, however, the element of free will I have been given, negates that.

Sians car got a puncture yesterday, actually its my car, an old BMW 318, a brand I have absolute faith in, extremely well built, even being 16 years old, I used tyreweld, which is a temporary fix, and she went out again that evening, in freezing temperatures, My normal evening when she is at work, was not the same, I was concerned, my faith had vanished, not in the car, but in the one area that I had involved myself in earlier that day, the car had been compromised, had been given the Harry treatment, I should have changed the tyre, not sent her out on a freezing night with a repaired tyre, I have faith in Creation, I have faith in Creator, I have faith in Hukam, I have no faith in myself, I am the weakest link, I am a BMW with a suspect tyre.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

<table width="84%"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>Why do some Sikhs have such resistance to the word and concept of 'faith'?
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hi Ishna ji ,

Content deleted......No one has been handed credentials to decide on the spiritual deadness of others, or whether they are slanderers. There are other web sites that welcome that sort of dialog. SPN is not the place. Please discuss issues not personalities. This is the one and only warning you will receive on this thread but it carries to all other threads. You are working on further discipline. spnadmin

bfully Guru Nanak Patshah described the state of faithful in Japji sahib ..


ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The state of the faithful cannot be described.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.

ਕਾਗਦਿ ਕਲਮ ਨ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
No paper, no pen, no scribe

ਮੰਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
can record the state of the faithful.

ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||


blessings.

Comment removed. It should have been a separate post.

 

[spnadmin]

ishna ji

It would help the thread if you would indicate whether you want each poster to describe for himself/herself their personal experience of faith, or lack of it. Or whether you expected the thread to be a vector for members to judge other members who may have different points of view. I believe I know the answer; however, as thread starter you might want to clarify your intentions.

 

[Ishna]

I honestly didn't think I'd see the 'n' word come out on a thread about faith.

My intentions with this thread was to find out from different kinds of Sikhs what they think about 'faith', not to judge them either way, but to learn about their point of view.

I've learned a bit about my own understanding of faith recently. I think it's an important component to inner peace. I'm already very interested to read about how my forum-mates feel about, and understand about, faith.

 

[Ishna]

If everything was in the hands of God, then I would have huge buckets of faith, however, the element of free will I have been given, negates that.

Sians car got a puncture yesterday, actually its my car, an old BMW 318, a brand I have absolute faith in, extremely well built, even being 16 years old, I used tyreweld, which is a temporary fix, and she went out again that evening, in freezing temperatures, My normal evening when she is at work, was not the same, I was concerned, my faith had vanished, not in the car, but in the one area that I had involved myself in earlier that day, the car had been compromised, had been given the Harry treatment, I should have changed the tyre, not sent her out on a freezing night with a repaired tyre, I have faith in Creation, I have faith in Creator, I have faith in Hukam, I have no faith in myself, I am the weakest link, I am a BMW with a suspect tyre.

To have faith in ones self means you are confident in your abilities. But your abilities can only take you so far. Anything can happen. Even if you changed the tyre and had faith that she would be safe, what's to stop the other tyre from having a slow leak that you didn't notice?

Do we have faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Do we have faith that Sikhi is the right boat to sail across life on? Unless we know our subject upside down and inside out, unless we are ourselves the Guru, then everything we do acting from within this way of life is with faith that the Guru knows best.

amirite?

 

[Ishna]

To Marthin Luther's point. One takes the first step without seeing the whole staircase because one chooses to. The basis for the choice is probably a very individual thing.

Presumably it's because they believe the staircase will take them to where they want to go.

You believe in the existence of the pot of gold. You walk in faith that it's there.

I'm not sure if that's right. Sounds good though.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Harry Haller]

To have faith in ones self means you are confident in your abilities. But your abilities can only take you so far. Anything can happen. Even if you changed the tyre and had faith that she would be safe, what's to stop the other tyre from having a slow leak that you didn't notice?

Well the car has 4 tyres, 3 of them have been fine, the fourth got a slow puncture, tyreweld injects a foam into it to seal the puncture, and then you can inflate, it is a get you home solution, and probably not best used in freezing conditions to do a 40 mile community nurse shift. Putting faith on a wing and a prayer is a fools occupation, as in life, I believe you have to do things properly, and things work out, cut corners and things don't, we overlook too much of our own foolishness when talking about faith, faith only works if try and do everything correctly, those that go through life on a wing and a prayer have no one else to blame for the mess it creates.

Do we have faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

as a talisman or a good luck charm, no, absolutely not, as a written record of the 'truth', absolutely yes, do we have faith that we will do as the SGGS suggests, no, we will do what we find convenient and what we can,.

Do we have faith that Sikhi is the right boat to sail across life on?

In the absence of rituals, chants, meditating on our chakras, finding the tenth gate, connecting with our inner smurf, all you are left with is the truth, the cold hard truth, Sikhism is pure truth, I have faith that the truth is the right bearing to set my compass by, and therefore, for me, Sikhism is the only boat for me, possibly the only boat that would have me..

Unless we know our subject upside down and inside out, unless we are ourselves the Guru, then everything we do acting from within this way of life is with faith that the Guru knows best.

maybe you are confusing driving a car with knowing about a car, I know how to drive, and I know a bit about what happens in a car, but I know better drivers than me, who know absolutely nothing mechanical.

Do you really have to have a degree in mechanical engineering to drive well

 

[Ishna]

Very nice post, brother.

Does the driver have faith in the mechanical engineer who designed and built her car?

 

[Harry Haller]

Very nice post, brother.

Does the driver have faith in the mechanical engineer who designed and built her car?

absolutely, BMW build very truthful cars, it is when we start replacing parts that have been set down by the car builder with OEM stock parts, that we end up with a car with problems, normally due to the parts used being of inferior quality, The SGGS is a owners guide and warranty, provided the terms of warranty are adhered to.

They normally provide a warranty if the car is serviced regularly, driven and maintained in accordance with the handbook, and only BMW parts used.

But we don't, we use cheap parts because they are cheaper, we drive fast and brake hard, we skip on servicing, for those for whom the faith is misplaced, we do not have an original product anymore, we think we do, but we don't.