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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 149764" data-attributes="member: 586">Gyani ji,And so comes in man to play his part in the scheme of things. He'd be silly to show kindness and compassion towards animals, lest they will destroy man's crops and he will then become extinct and God be seen as having failed in carrying out his project. But look, he has in fact been doing God's work in this regard without even having to *know God* since prehistoric times. This can't be right however can it, since religions teaching means to connect with God came in much later on? And besides, these same religions also teach about the undesirability of greed, and what else but greed could be behind man's drive for survival? And agriculture, this came in long after man killed for food, so is it not that he 'evolved' during that time? Why the sudden need to go back to the old primitive ways?Doesn't it make sense to conclude that man in fact evolved such that he can now do better than be driven by self-seeking impulses which causes harm to other creatures and in moral terms, to himself as well?  Isn't religion a reflection of man's finally coming to know to distinguish between impulses that are base and knowing the qualities which lead to rising above them?  And when you state that it is vital that man survive since only he can taste the nectar of Truth, how could you expect this to happen if at the same time you insist that he survive any which way he can, including killing for food? Can the road to Truth be paved with killing and death?But why even talk in such terms? It appears that we get lost in "stories" about the world out there in terms of past, present and future, precisely because there is no urgency to understand what is "NOW". Assumptions are made and taken so seriously and defended, such that whatever is the driving force, these are never known, let alone addressed. It is said that when a person has lost morality, he begins to talk about justice. I say also that if his focus is on humans, be it at the expense of animals or not, that this indicates his sense of morality must be questionable. This is the reason why I find the concept "humanism" very repulsive. And don't get me wrong and think that I'm an animal lover or something, because I am not. I do not even have a pet and would never think of getting one. I don't like being near animals. When people go all emotional about their pets, this puts me off completely. My concern is with man, but this is because I only know how to communicate with him and believe that, unlike animals, he has some capacity to develop goodness and wisdom. I am not here to protect animals, but in fact to encourage people to not waste this precious life away in wrong kinds of thinking and accumulating tendencies towards bad even more. I still think the non-issue has its basis in the fact that both the raw vegetable and raw meat and cooked vegetable and cooked meat, are just food to be consumed and therefore no different from each other. Plants can be said to have life, but not in the sense that a sentient being does. Personally, I think it foolish to mindlessly destroy plants, not because it is in fact "killing", but because it is cutting short a process of growth and also interfere with the environment. When I take a bite of a fruit and suddenly discover that it is infested with insects, I do not eat it not because I do not wish to kill those insects, but because I don't want to get sick. But I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume some form of life existing in each apple that I pick up or a cabbage that I buy. And if somehow I do become convinced by the knowledge that insects exist in every fruit and vegetable out there, I will admit to and take responsibility for the killing as being for the sake of survival. Perhaps I will start to only eat meat and ready-made food. But if for some reason I have to eat a fruit and believe that some insect has been killed in the process, I will *not* think it right to have done so. But of course there is a difference in such a case as compared to any deliberate killing. Here I won't be perceiving the insect and would probably even hope that there isn't one, in fact. We all know that we need to sort the grains and daal out to remove any insects that are there. And the situation you draw is correct or not, who knows. And again, why even be drawn in by such thinking? After all, it all comes down to intention and this means that when eating fruit, it is eating fruit and not killing. Indeed as I've indicated above, the imperative is to know what is it that is behind such thinking and note the tendency to keeping away from attending to the present moment.Regarding eating vegetables, yes, buying vegetables in the market is no different from buying meat when it comes to considering its history. I do believe that many more number of insects die during the whole process of getting one rice plant to bear rice grain and then to cutting and processing it. I am fortunate that I do not have to grow my own food. But if I do and end up having to kill, again I will not think it justified to having done it. And hopefully I'd continue to be inspired by what the Buddha once said:"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will .'abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."Getting off the cycle of existence is the goal, not survival, where one ends up only to perpetuate the madness.To go by the "survival" mentality would be quite irresponsible in my opinion. To not be concerned about one's own happiness sounds more like the responsible thing to do and teach to other people. Faith is faith in goodness. Aiming at survival is to rely on attachment and this shows lack of faith.Thanks, but it was aimed more at other members, particularly those who respect your opinions.</blockquote>

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