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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Randip Singh" data-source="post: 50476" data-attributes="member: 1323">In case people do not know who Nirmala's are:  The members of the sect are called Nirmala Sikhs or simply Nirmalas. The sect arose during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). Guru wanted his followers not only to train in soldierly arts but also to have interests in letters. He had engaged a number of scholars to translate Sanskrit classics into Punjabi, in order to bring them within the easy reach of people.Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs, namely Karam Singh, Vir Singh, Ganda Singh, Saina Singh, and Ram Singh, dressed as upper-class students, to Varanasi, the centre of Hindu learning. These Sikhs worked diligently for several years and returned to Anandpur as accomplished scholars of classical Indian theology and philosophy. In view of their piety and their sophisticated manner, they and their students came to be known as Nirmalas, and were later recognised as a separate sect.After the evacuation of Anandpur in 1705, the Nirmala preachers went to different places outside Punjab, particularly to Haridvar, Allahabad and Varanasi, where they established centres of learning that exist even today — Kankhal, near Haridwar; Pakki Sangat at Allahabad; and Chetan Math and Chhoti Sangat at Varanasi. When, during the second half of the eighteenth century, the Sikhs established their sway over the Punjab, some of the Nirmala saints came back here and founded centres at different places.It was customary for Nirmala scholars to attend, along with their disciples, religious fairs at prominent Hindu pilgrimage centres such as Haridwar, Allahabad and Gaya, where they, like other sadhus, took out shahis or processions and had philosophical debates with scholars of other religious denominations as a part of their preaching activity. During the Haridwar Kumbh in 1855, at a general meeting of the Nirmalas held in their principal dera at Kankhal, the first step was taken towards setting up a central body by electing Mahitab Singh of Rishikesh, reputed scholar of the sect, as their Sri Mahant or principal priest. This tradition is continuing and the present head in Sri Mahant Nam Dev Singh. This is one view point. In anycase, where and who made this analysis? Date, time's, author's name? In any case I have read criticism's that Nirmala's but too much of a Hindu bias in their works. Also, this still does not mean one should not eat meat. It merely means one would not cut one's own throat to eat, which takes us back to the point the essay is making. How sects twist this Shabad to mean something does not.    Again this does not mean that one form of dish is prevalent over another. Taking one sentence out of the shabad destroys the meaning of the shabad. The entire shabad reads from the article:  4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut? (SGGS p1374)Let us add this to the correct context:  oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool. kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh. kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh. gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh. jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi. kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay. hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas. chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay. jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay. kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay. dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal. daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap. harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar. so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar. kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk. ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi. tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan. paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk. laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar. The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together. It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon. Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there. Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep. But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath. But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing. Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself? Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart. The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal. When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated. He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served “ those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf. I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow. As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written: kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon. Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji  In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.  in addition to this the line:Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself? Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart. The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal. When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? The mention of Mullahs here and the fact it is directed at Mullahs shows it is not directed at hunters hunting for meat. So what is Bhagat Kabir referring too. Clues to this are easy to find when one analyses the time frame when Kabir ji lived. He lived at the time Timur?Tarmalane invaded India. He sacked Delhi killing 100, 000 innocent Hindu's. He also sacked Benares, his is an extract of his memoirs: <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts" target="_blank">http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts</a>Quote: Massacre of 100,000 Hindus At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.   Now bare the above in mind when reading the shabad. The Muslim invader and Mullahs, hunted these poor Hindu souls down, to steal their wealth, women and food.    This is not the meaning " meaning killing animals – causing death of" is spin added by the source. Below are many examples of where hunter is used and no mention of meat. <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=143&english=t&id=5873#l5873" target="_blank">Page 143, Line 4</a> jamraajai nit nit manmukh hayri-aa.The King of the Angels of Death hunts down those self-willed manmukhs, over and over again.Guru Nanak Dev - <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=143&L=4&id=5873" target="_blank">view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</a> <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=432&english=t&id=19856#l19856" target="_blank">Page 432, Line 14</a> jam raajay kay hayroo aa-ay maa-i-aa kai sangal banDh la-i-aa. ||5||The hunters of the King of Death come, and bind him in the chains of Maya. ||5||Guru Nanak Dev - <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=432&L=14&id=19856" target="_blank">view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</a> <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1367&english=t&id=58373#l58373" target="_blank">Page 1367, Line 6</a> laakh ahayree ayk jee-o kaytaa bancha-o kaal. ||53||Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||Devotee Kabir - <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=1367&L=6&id=58373" target="_blank">view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</a> <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1354&english=t&id=57874#l57874" target="_blank">Page 1354, Line 8</a> marigee paykhant baDhik par-haarayn lakh-y aavDhah.Seeing the deer, the hunter aims his weapons.Guru Arjan Dev - <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=1354&L=8&id=57874" target="_blank">view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</a>This last example specifically mentions hunting an animal by name.   Sorry, no mention of animal or meat….this is an addition by someone mistranslating.   Ok apart from one FACT. No animal or mention of meat. There is no mention of "I"……it it a question "Kaun" or "who"………the question being asked is who would cut their throat just to eat? Keeping in mind the Invasion of Timur, one ses a completely different picture emerging. "Hey Mullahs, you do all these fasts and things, yet you commit tyranny…….tell me who would cut your own throat just to hunt for food……..so why are you commiting this tyrrany on others?" or words to that effect….absolutely and nothing to do with meat eating.   Falls down on several accounts: 1) No mention of animals or meat. 2) Pleasure of the tongue is a silly argument, that would imply meat food tastes the best. The fact is that in India especially, vegetarian food tastes the best. 3) No mention of sacrifice. Sacrifice = Halaal or Bismil according to Bani. 4) We are not Hindu's, so reference to Hindu philosophy is irrelevant. No where does Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji say we should use Hinduism as a template for Sikhi. 5) Sikhism accepts there is an much life in a plant as there is in an animal or mineral, so the same could be applied to a plant.   6) Does not take into account the reference to Mullahs.7) Breaks shabad up into a few lines:Here is another example: <a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1379&english=t&id=58827#l58827" target="_blank">Page 1379, Line 7</a>॥२८॥jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28||Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||Sekh Farid - Does this mean we avoid bread and butter? Of course not…….but taking one or two lines distorts the shabad. That is what has happened here.  See references of sources in the essay…….. Copies of Bani I think have been taken from <a href="http://www.srigranth.org" target="_blank">www.srigranth.org</a> and also from Pritam Singh Chahil's translation.</blockquote>

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