Friendship Between Genders. Important Question

[Harkiran Kaur]

Sat Sri Skal!

I was in a debate with someone recently, a guy who I was talking to online. He says that according to Guru Nanak Dev Ji, it is forbidden to talk to someone else's fiance. Now, I made it clear to him I am open to making new friends, not interested in pursuing anything with him, and that I have met someone and we are in the 'getting to know each other' stage. There has been no mention of marriage....

And anyway, I have re-read the SRM and did a search in SGGS for references to spouse or fiance and / or anything which says it is forbidden to even talk to someone who is someone elses fiance. I could not find anything. The only things I have found are in the SRM where it says Sikhs are required to be part of the Sangat and the larger community.... (this encourages at the very least conversation one would think!) and that one should regard members of the opposite sex (aside from your spouse) as family... brothers / sisters/ aunties uncles etc. That to me, tells me that at the VERY least talking to the opposite sex is not 'forbidden' and actually encouraged as Sikhs are not to lead an ascetic lifestyle, they are supposed to be part of society!

So my question is this: Is there something written anywhere that similar to Islam forbids talking between males / females who are not married / engaged to be married? I have as of yet been unable to find anything at all in this regard so I am curious as to where he got that. He is Sikh btw... and he specifically said (and I quote his msg to me here) "...but talking with some elses fiance is forbidden, as says guru nanak ji. You have a lot to learn about sikhism my friend."

First of all I am not anyone's finace anyway... but I wanted to get this calrified... with references if possible, because this guy seems to be on his high horse and thinks his interpretation of Sikhi is the right interpretation. And his interpretation sounds more like Islam to me!!! I also feel like he is slamming me in his message to me! If I am wrong however and there IS something that forbids talking - then I will eat my words and look it up.

Thanks in Advance!

 

[spnadmin]

Akasha ji

Can you tell from the id of this man/boy/individual where he is writing from?

Some of these beliefs are more common in immigrant communities that are struggling to hold onto a golden memory of a morally uncorrupted place and time when most were pure and the impure were banished. This is so true of every immigrant group...because that first generation must hold steady or needs a way to hold steady to an identity in order to survive psychologically in a new world.

That is, if he is not winding you up or getting in gear for a da'wah... conversion effort in a public platform like an Internet forum. First step, he plants doubts in your mind about what you know, weakens your confidence; Step 2, moves in for the kill with endless abuse of your beliefs; Step 3, gives you the answer from the Quran.

A question I would indeed have is why he is on an Internet forum talking to strangers, including strange women, if his own religion forbids him to do this?

And No, Sikhism does not forbid conversations between genders. For proof go on YouTube and tune into videos of United Sikhs, Khalsa Aid, SALDEF and you will see teams of youth doing incredible worldwide seva in the worst conditions.... singhs and kaurs working as a team.... which is what we do better than most.

I am not biased.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Well, I have talked to him briefly via skype... his accent is Punjabi, and he is living in the US in Virginia. He wears a turban, but in his pic looks like he trims his beard (but not clean shaven). So he is writing from the US. His accent is pretty thick though so I don't think he grew up in the US.

He seems to know much about Sikh history... but when he thought I was engaged (I have in my profile that I am in a relationship... this is on Facebook) he assumed I am engaged to be married and sent me the message I quoted above.... stating that it's forbidden to speak to someone else's fiance.

I was 99% sure I'd never read anything like that before... and in fact read the opposite, that participation in society is encouraged. And then he ended with a slam that I have much to learn about Sikhism.

Very odd... so there is no specific reference to this anywhere???

Oh and I did find out why he was talking to me.... two reasons: 1) he thinks because I am a Gori I know nothing about Sikhi. I admit I am still learning, but I am not completely clueless either... I actually read the whole SGGS (in English) and the Rehet as well. And I go to the Gurdwara every week. I am also learning Punjabi and how to read Gurmukhi (of which I can now recognize about 10 letters and some repetative words like 'Har' 'Naam' 'Nanak' 'Das' and the full Mool Mantra.) By his own admission he can't read Gurmukhi at all. But he thinks he is an expert in Sikh history and says that most people don't really know the true meaning etc. so he feels he has to 'teach me' and 2) he admitted he is specifically looking for a Gori Sikh to marry. He is 39 years old, never married.... not that I am slamming his being single as I am 37 and never married. But he sounds almost desperate at finding someone, and asked me to talk to any other Gori Sikhs I know and see if they are interested.

He seems very 'shady' to me and I dont plan on continuing our conversation. However I wanted to confirm if what he said had any truth to it.

 

[Harry Haller]

he is correct! it is forbidden for those who cannot accept a woman as a sister/mother/daughter figure.

 

[spnadmin]

Well you have the Sikhi version of things correct. So I would simply consider some questions you want to ask about him. On the one hand he is very conservative. On the other he is seeking out strangers on social media. What is his game? Why is he tempting fate, possibly creating a window for talking to someone he should not be talking to for one reason or another? Is he really a Sikh? If you know that nothing in SRM or SGGS "forbid" certain conversations, why does he seem to think the opposite is true? That would be a red flag for me. your first intuitions should be trusted.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

he is correct! it is forbidden for those who cannot accept a woman as a sister/mother/daughter figure.

So was he in not so many words suggesting he is interested? Even though he knows I am in a relationship and that he can't see me as he would see a sister?

 

[Harry Haller]

So was he in not so many words suggesting he is interested? Even though he knows I am in a relationship and that he can't see me as he would see a sister?

He is using religion to justify his own inadequacy. Problem is Sikhism does not encourage the female form to be viewed as evil, or as a distraction, which is why Sikh women do not need to cover themselves up from head to toe in order to stop the poor men being tempted.

 

[spnadmin]

Akasha ji

After interjecting my caution this one and only last time, I will be silent on the matter. But I think you need to consider more than one possibility in this scenario, and one that is not necessarily inclined toward relationships found and built through social media.

Please read the article at this link http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2012...-case-she-deserved-it-is-not-a-good-argument/

It is an editorial spun off of the recent New Delhi gang rape case. Following about 2 days of outrage the voices of tradition were heard to ask "what was she doing out at night with a man, blah blah blah?" She deserved it.

Social media can be dangerous places. And in this article there are too many echos of what I am hearing you say about your earliest encounters with a "Sikh" man, who espouses extreme traditionalist views about women, that rival the extremes in Islam. I believe you may be a western woman. If you are, there are those who expect you have the morals of *****. For the many in these camps. So anything goes. And you are fair game.

That's it. Sorry if I have offended you, but security or the lack of it on Internet and media, is something of a long-time study of mine. I would myself be wary. One does not always have to "understand." We are not under any obligation to do that.

 

[Navdeep88]

Maybe he's actively looking for a relationship & not looking to waste time. I wouldn't take offense at a Man who actually knows his boundaries. Seriously? The other stuff, going on @ this time??? Rapes, & Justification for them?
Consider how Lucky we are, that there are actually Men who consider their boundaries & are not afraid to put them up. That's also indication that he takes relationships seriously & wuld be loyal. He's not messing around. I like that, & he speaks his truth, however you may disagree w/ it & whether it's backed by religion doctrine or not, at least he's being honest.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING in GURMATT or SGGS as suggested.

The SRM does forbid illicit relationships - to MARRIED couples. Such cases would be termed ADULTERY and is punishable by PANJ Piayars and Pahul has to be taken again. Adultery even in ones dreams is discouraged !!

ALL WOMEN other than ones WIFE..are sisters, daughters and mothers. THIS was the HIGHEST MORAL GROUND of the SIKHS that even Muslim writers were FORCED to admit.."These Sikhs are DOGS of WAR..but I feel very guilty calling them DOGS (Saagh) because in all HONESTY..their moral character, their bravery and valour on the battle fields...forces me to call them LIONS instead..."" This was written by the Muslim historian and advisor to Iranian King Ahmad Shaha Abdlai on one of his invasions...and Abdali replied..THEN THEY WILL SOON BE RULERS...and indeed SIKHS soon ruled Punjab.:blueturban:

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Well, if it's any indication as to his character, someone else used a cuss word on my Facebook page and this guy un-freiended me upon seeing it. He didn't really seem very friendly... mostly made himself out to be better than anyone else (holier than thou attitude). He had told me I won't really learn anything going to the Gurdwara etc. So I think I am better off that he un-friended me anyway.

 

[Arvind]

Sat Sri Skal!

I was in a debate with someone recently, a guy who I was talking to online. He says that according to Guru Nanak Dev Ji, it is forbidden to talk to someone else's fiance. Now, I made it clear to him I am open to making new friends, not interested in pursuing anything with him, and that I have met someone and we are in the 'getting to know each other' stage. There has been no mention of marriage....

Thanks to the 'friend' for giving a good laugh. I haven't come across any quote/suggestion like that (forbidding) by Guru Sahibs.

Forget about action, even bringing a lusty thought even in a dream about other women is, what a sikh is supposed to abstain from.

Mann ka sootak lobh hai jeva sootak koor
Akhi sootak Vekhana par triya par dhan roop - (Asa Di Var)
​

(The pollution of the mind is greed, the pollution of the tongue is speaking untruth. And the pollution of the eyes is to have lustful looks at others wealth and other women — i.e. other than one’s wife.)

With Regards,
Arvind.

 

[Rory]

And I bet in a debate this man would be quick to tell you how "there is no sexist treatment in Sikhism whatsoever! At all! Of any form. Women are completely equal to men in every regard and are seen as humans, not as a gender!"

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Akasha ji,


May be he is looking for a free ticket to ride to Canada. Do you know his immigrant status in the US?

Many "Sikhs" who trim their beards also have cut hair. Perhaps he used his 'Sunday turban' on Skype to impress you.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Akasha ji,


May be he is looking for a free ticket to ride to Canada. Do you know his immigrant status in the US?

Many "Sikhs" who trim their beards also have cut hair. Perhaps he used his 'Sunday turban' on Skype to impress you.

I deleted him ages ago, so it no longer matters. My concern was if there was any truth to what he said, since I could find no such thing myself in either SGGS or the Rehet...

btw he claimed to have green card status in the US so I doubt it... he was just a very odd and controlling and chauvinistic person I think...

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

What kind of person would say you would not learn anything? One who is himself blinded by ego or vanity! Whenever I meet someone, I start judging them. I try to stop doing so and look forward to learn something from them. I believe every person can inspire you beyond what you expect. And you cannot declare someone as unfit for learning or changing. No one expects caterpillar to become a butterfly, but that never stopped them