Guru Hargobind's Hukamnama - Important

[Baz]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki feteh.

I have been struggling with an important question for some time and hope learned people here can help me, I have already asked some knowledgeable people.

In the famous book Hukamnamah by Dr Ganda Singh there are 2 hukamnamah's allegedly from Guru Hargobind, both of which at the end state not to go near meat or fish- MAAS MACCHHI DE NERE NAHI AWNA. However I have not been able to get a copy of this book, and have been told that for some reason it is no longer published?

I have seen no proof authenticating these hukamnamah's apart from some stating that it is authentic as both are in Dr Ganda Singh's respected book. However

I have also read that Harinder Singh Mehboob has reported that 85 out of 87 Hukmnamae recorded in the book, Hukmnamae, of Ganda Singh are not authentic. I also know that Guru Sahib himself was a hunter which contradicts these two hukamanah’s (I don't accept the argument that the purpose of the Guru Sahibs hunting was to liberate animals btw) .

What are people’s views on these hukamanamah’s, does anyone have any further researched information? Are there other hukamnamah in this book which are contrary to gurmat (I wanted to read the whole book myself and every hukamnamah within but am finding it impossible to get a copy)

I would honestly appreciate your help.

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki feteh.

 

[spnadmin]

I have also read that Harinder Singh Mehboob has reported that 85 out of 87 Hukmnamae recorded in the book, Hukmnamae, of Ganda Singh are not authentic.

Professor Mehboob was not stating a personal opinion, writing on whim, or even giving his informed opinion. He studiously analyzed the problem and backed his conclusions with meticulous research and detail. For that reason, I accept his conclusions until another scholar can refute what he says with scholarship equal to Meboob's scholarship. That has not happened. Instead of scholarship we are given wishful thinking and fanciful folklore.

I go with 85 are not authentic. I will change my mind given quality logic and quality data. Good thread you started here. Thanks

 

[kds1980]

Guru hargobind ji not only hunted but also ordered Sikhs to Pick up sword and go to hunting
in his first sermon ,So either the first sermon is wrong or Hukamnamah is fake


http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=45013&t=45013#reply_45013

Vangaar: The First Sermon of Guru Hargobind Sahib
Taken from “Gur Bhari� by Pr. Satbir Singh
Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org

Guru Hargobind Sahib’s first sermon must be heard again today and applies just as much now as it did when he first gave it.

Guru Arjan Dev had been brutally tortured and embraced martyrdom, becoming an example for the Panth. The Sikhs were grief-struck and felt a sense of despair. The small Panth of Guru Nanak had been targeted by the mighty power of the Mughals.

Guru Hargobind Sahib, became the next Guru as per the orders of his father. In front of all the gathered Sikhs, Baba Buddha jee put the two swords of meeri and peeri on Guru Hargobind Sahib. Guru Sahib was dressed like and emperor and there was a kalgi (aigrette) on his dastaar.

The Dhadis, Bhai Abdullah and Bhai Nath Mal, at the hukam of Guru Hargobind Sahib sang a vaar filled with bir ras.

Then, Guru Hargobind Sahib rose and gave his first sermon to the Sikhs:

“Today the offerings that are beloved to me are good weapons and good youth. If you want my happiness, then exercise your bodies, wrestle, play gatka, go into the jungles to hunt and learn to ride horses. Weakness is now a crime to the Nation that cannot be forgiven for anyone. You will take up the sword and I now wear the sword so that the swords of tyranny and oppression will stop forever.

You have all come from far and wide today. The cool tranquillity has been stolen from not just your heart and my heart, but from the entire world. Our swords will not rest until we bring this oppression to an end.

Make day and night one. Go into the villages and light the inferno of revolution. Tell the people that we need their youth. Only that is a good youth that sacrifices itself for the cause of the Nation. We need sacred hearts and pure minds. Enshrine “pihlW mrn kbUl� in your hearts. We fear death because we have not experienced true life. We feel worry because we have not enjoyed a taste of life. We feel fear because our destination and goal seems so far off. But if you challenge death, death will flee from you. If you learn to walk with your heads held high then worry will depart. If you are determined to walk, the destination will not be so far away. Have faith in Vahiguru and all fears will vanish. If fear has left you then even death will seem like bliss.�

Guru jee continued,

“Do not think that you are too few. You are all like springs. Oceans flow out of these very springs. There are hundreds of thousands of springs like you in our Nation. When you come together and flow forward, you will create a flood.

A small and insignificant piece of wood, when made into a match, can light the entire jungle on fire. But you are humans! And furthermore, those humans whose heart has just now been scorched on hot iron plates [reference to shahidi of Guru Arjan Dev jee].

Addressing the poets in the Sangat, Guru Sahib said,

“See, God has given you the gift of poetry. When nations are built, you are the foundations. Stop all these other untimely songs and work to bring the Nation out of this deep dark pit. Tell those stories which will make the people willing to lose their skin like they would be willing to change their clothes. Fill the people of our Nation with the spirit and fervour to be like moths so they will sacrifice themselves in the flames of our cause.

Our blood has become cold. Tell us stories of Shahidi and become the furnaces that will boil our blood. Give us the passion to make the trampled Punjab and our crushed Nation rise to its feet once again.�

Speaking to the Dhadis, Guru Sahib said,

“Now is the time that your instruments should call out a challenge. Your notes should stir the Nation. The beat of your dhads should awaken the people and the bells on your bows should make hearts fill with the zeal of sacrifice.�

We must hear Guru Sahib’s message again today and rise to the challenge.

 

[jananavan]

I belive if sikhs study the more "shamanistic" religions of old europe and of meso america(olmec/toltec,mayan/inca/aztec) it will help clear up this whole hunting and killing of animals mystery. It is said the the wise shamistic/earth based cults of the ancient times had such an understanding of animal life that they knew how to communicate with the animals and with nature to such an extent that the animals would come and volunteer them selves as a sacrafice. The mayan(toltec/olmec) have a deep understanding of animals, nature and "the spirit". They say that a warrior will not hesitate to take the life of an animal not so much because he is a killer or has a disregard torwards animals but because he understands how ALL of us(including guru themselves) have a "time up" in which we MUST leave this world. Not leaving or refusing to stay would disrupt the ways of "the spirit" and go against existence. The toltec teach that a warrior will pray and thank the animal for sacraficing its life and that the warrior acknowledges that one day he will also become a sacrafice to "the spirit" the same way the animal did. I will come back and put some more detailed qoutes that give a really deep and give an insight on the ways of "the warrior".

Fairly early in the Baghavad Gita it says that Arjuna look at the war line with his warriors on his side and the enemys on the other side. He looked at the other side and saw friends, cousins, warriors, scholars etc. He becomes overwhelmed by grief and looses his will to lead the war. I belive this is when Krishna(his charitee) reveals himself to Arjuna in the midst of his despair and encourages him to "full fill his duty as a ksatriya(warrior)" and that he would not be "killing" anyone for there is no death and it is god who has already stricken down the looser and given honor to the winner and that krishna is merely an instrument to full fill the flow of "existence/god/the spirit". Something to keep in mind here..

 

[spnadmin]

Guru hargobind ji not only hunted but also ordered Sikhs to Pick up sword and go to hunting
in his first sermon ,So either the first sermon is wrong or Hukamnamah is fake

What are the sources used by Professor Satbir Singh in "Gur Bharia" where he relates this sermon? If he used a source like Suraj Partap there may be many gray areas. I think too the article may have the title of Gur Bhari.

We have also this comment from SPN mentor Gyani Jarnail Singh which reports that Principal Satbir Singh played a primary role in collecting the 52 hukamnamas, and in fact he is the one who published the book about them.

I have all this in book form....Kalghidhar jee de 52 vachan...author Balwinder Singh printer Singh Bros Amrtisar..ISBN 81-7205-150-6 Feb 1995..Originally told to Baba ram Singh Koer great grandson of Baba Budha Ji..and collected by Principal Satbir Singh in AAD SIKHS aad Sakhian--GUR SHABDEE GOVIND GAJJIAH..
NO. 49..Sikh te itbaar karna....??? Can we really "trust" every SIKH today...??? especially the ones in Punjab politics/Punjab police ???
45...WHY is daughter POISON ?? this is Brahminical view..to a SIKH both daughter/son are equal..Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says PUTTREEAN kaul na plaiyo...this is BOTH male/female


38..Sir Munnahs... How many SIKHS follow this...if we really do this..90% of sikh daughters would remain SINGLE !!
5..serve the sikh sewak ?? i dont get this..we should serve ALL as in Sarbatt Da Bhalla and not just SIKHS.
Gyani jarnail Singh

See this thread for a deeper discussion of the matter. Professor Satbir Singh may think that all 52 hukamnamas are authentic.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/21223-52-hukams-guru-gobind-singh-ji.html

 

[kds1980]

What are the sources used by Professor Satbir Singh in "Gur Bharia" where he relates this sermon? If he used a source like Suraj Partap there may be many gray areas. I think too the article may have the title of Gur Bhari.

I don't know what source he used,.Principal Satbir Singh was a Sikh author who wrote many books about sikh Guru's.

http://www.jsks.co.in/Satbir_Singh_Ji.htm

but on the other hand I don't find any reason to disbelief him on above.Guru hargobind ji must have written this kind of sermon anytime in his life as he was the first guru to martialise the sikhs .So at some point of life he may written sikhs to pick up the swords

 

[spnadmin]

kds 1980 ji

Yes, the professor wrote many books.

The question I raise, however, is that sources are important. Suraj Partap, for example, was written in the 19th Century, based on family anecdotes that were passed down 2 generations. I am not saying that Satbir Singh used Suraj Parkash as his source. Only that if he used unreliable sources, then the story has to be looked at as questionable.

 

[kds1980]

kds 1980 ji

Yes, the professor wrote many books.

The question I raise, however, is that sources are important. Suraj Partap, for example, was written in the 19th Century, based on family anecdotes that were passed down 2 generations. I am not saying that Satbir Singh used Suraj Parkash as his source. Only that if he used unreliable sources, then the story has to be looked at as questionable.

Here is a post from tapoban I think this will answer your question
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=45013&t=45013

Principal Satbir Singh used all old sources to write his books. They are really worth reading. He used Panth Parkash (old and new) Kavi Santokh Singh, rehitnamas, persian sources and many others.

 

[Randip Singh]

This as an unverifiable Hukamanama which contradicts Hukamana's by the 10th Master:

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga
Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai
Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena
Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;
Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna
SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna
Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna
Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha
Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana
Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe
Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso
Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna
Guru kee rahat rakhnee
Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.
Patshahi Dasvi
Jeth 26, Samat 1756


To the entire sangat at Kabul.
The Guru will protect the Sangat,
I am pleased with you all.
You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.
Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,
Accept the use of shorts and a sword.
Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,
Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.
Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,
Do not use tobacco in any form,
Have no connection with those who kill their daughters
Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.
Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)
Recite the Guru's hymns
Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",
Follow the Sikh code of discipline
I give the entire sangat my blessing)
Signature of 10th Guru
Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D

 

[Baz]

Thanks for the replies.

spnadmin - "Harinder Singh Mehboob has reported that 85 out of 87 Hukmnamae recorded in the book, Hukmnamae, of Ganda Singh are not authentic."

Do you know if the 2 hukamanamah referred to in my post allegedly by Guru Hargobind are part of the 85 Harinder Singh Mehboob found NOT to be authentic?

I am not familiar with Harinder Singh Mehboob or the research methods he used. If you can inform me of how he came to his conclusion concerning these hukamnamah's it would be very useful, - thanks

kds1980 - your wrote "Guru hargobind ji not only hunted but also ordered Sikhs to Pick up sword and go to hunting in his first sermon ,So either the first sermon is wrong or Hukamnamah is fake"

The sermon you pasted shows Guru Hargobind telling his Sikh's to go hunting, therefore the hukamnamah which states a staying away from flesh and fish is clearly a contradiction. We know Guru Hargobind went hunting therefore this fact contradicts these alleged hukamnamah which I do not think have been proved genuine by any scholar, apart from being added in Dr Ganada Singh's book.

I have not spoken to anyone who can prove the two hukamnamah's are genuine at this stage, where as research by Harinder Singh Mehboobfound appears to have found most of the hukamnaha's in Dr Ganda Singh's book not to be authentic.

 

[spnadmin]

Principal Satbir Singh used all old sources to write his books. They are really worth reading. He used Panth Parkash (old and new) Kavi Santokh Singh, rehitnamas, persian sources and many others.

kds1980 ji

I have already investigated this. If he used Panth Parkash, aka Suraj Partap, or anything by the poet Santok Singh, he is using hearsay evidence, which is untrustworthy. The fact that Suraj Partap is permitted to be used in sangat for teaching purposes is the result of a 20 th Century compromise with sanatan leaning sections of the panth. One of the reasons for the splintering of Chief Khalsa Divan at that time. Thanks for your reply.

 

[spnadmin]

I want to add this idea.

If the hukamnama did not come from Guru Hargobind (is not proved to be the Guru's command), that does not make the sermon from Gur Bhari true. And, vice versa. If the sermon from Gur Bhari is not true, that does not prove the hukamnama to be from Guru Hargobind. Both conclusions can be false. Even if they contradict one another.

Let me give you an example that is more clear-cut. In 17th Century in England a person suspected of witchcraft was dunked in water over and over. The argument was as follows. If he/she is a witch, he/she will survive. If he/she is not a witch, then he/she will drown. You can see that both conclusions are false even though they contradict one another. The false conclusion rests on a false assumption: that witches are real. There was no reliable evidence for witchcraft, yet people based conclusions on false ideas.

Similarly, if Satbir Singh uses unreliable sources, both conclusions can contradict one another and both can still be wrong.

BTW, my impression of Satbir Singh: as a historian he was only collecting stories and publishing them as collections...therefore contradictions are not all that important. He is the one who published Gur Bhari. He is the one who collected the 52 hukamnamas and published them. Scholars dispute them. Satbir Singh's collections serve more as a heritage project of Sikh history and literature, not as proof of any particular point of view.

 

[Baz]

I have not seen any evidence that the 2 hukamnamah's are genuine.

 

[spnadmin]

The part that amazes me is how we get tangled up in technical questions about documents of secondary importance and less. The guide is SGGS. As many times as we have tried to instill interest in threads on Gurmat topics, it is the 52 hukamnamas that come back to the foreground again and again.

There is no panth without Guru Granth!

 

[Baz]

I started this post to enquire about the 2 hukamnamah's allegedly from Guru Hargbind Sahib in the hope that someone may be able to shed more light on the matter.

I was not enquiring about the 53 hukamnaha's from allegedly from Guru Gobind Singh nor the account of when Guru Hargobind became the 6th Guru and changed the dynamics of the Sikh's.

I think we have lost sight of the actual question I was refering to!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The Ultimate and Final Touchstone for any Hukmanamah or anything else is... Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Spnadmin is 110% RIGHT... No panth without GURU GRANTH.

The slightest 'contradiction" ...THROW OUT whatever that FAILS the Touchstone of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Period.

 

[spnadmin]

Baz ji

In response to your words,

I started this post to enquire about the 2 hukamnamah's allegedly from Guru Hargbind Sahib in the hope that someone may be able to shed more light on the matter.

What I was saying in so many words is this. One cannot deduce whether these hukamnamas are true or false without reliable evidence. One cannot deduce whether they contradict the Gur Bharia. Principal Satbir Singh ji is not providing evidence. He created a legacy collection for us based on oral history. No way to check it out.