Harimandir Sahib

[Neutral Singh]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Harimandir Sahib[/font]

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This unique temple of God has been built at the lowest level because it represents the humility of Guru Nanak. Humility Incarnate Guru Arjan selected the lowest level because this was to be the eternal seat of the Prophet of Humility, Sri Guru Nanak Sahib (manifest Sri Guru Granth Sahib). ​

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Sri Guru Arjan Sahib got Sri Harimandir Sahib built in the midst of the sarovar (tank) at the lowest level. Unlike other temples where the devotees have to climb up to offer their obeisance, here the devotees have to step down to offer their homage. This unique temple of God has been built at the lowest level because it represents the humility of Guru Nanak. Humility Incarnate Guru Arjan selected the lowest level because this was to be the eternal seat of the Prophet of Humility, Sri Guru Nanak Sahib (manifest Sri Guru Granth Sahib).

The Sikhs were anxious to raise the plinth of Sri Harimandir Sahib higher than all the surrounding buildings and had strongly pleaded with the Guru for doing so but wonderful were divine outpourings of the Humility Personified Guru Arjan. Some extracts:

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Garibi Gada Hamari, Khana Sagal Rein Chhari
Is Aage Ko Na Tikai Vekari [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sri Guru Granth Sahib (628)[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]“Humility is my mace; becoming the dust of everybody’s feet is my sword. No evil doer can dare withstand these weapons”. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

For a sikh, the Guru is the soul of his own soul.

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Dasan Das Rein Dasan Ki, Jan Ki Tehal Kamawon,
Sarab Sookh Badyai Nanak Jiwon Mukhon Blawo[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sri Guru Granth Sahib (529)[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]“I have become dust of the feet of the slaves of His slaves and I serve His servants. Thus, I have achieved true joy and honour, I live by uttering His Holy Name” [/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

In this Great Temple, the four doors in all the four directions were thrown open to all the religions, to rich and poor, to high and low, and to the out-castes. All were welcome in this House of God. The poor, the low, the meak, the oppressed and the humble felt the presence of God face to face.

All religions have produced true lovers of God. A muslim mystic, a true lover of God, Hazrat Mian Mir, who had become a legend in his very life-time, was invited to lay the foundation stone of this Universal Temple of God, further signifying that this Temple of God belonged to all. On Dharma, religion, Sri Guru Arjan Sahib clarifies :

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sarb Dharam Mehn Sreisht Dharam
Har Ko Nam Jap Nirmal Karam [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sri Guru Granth Sahib (266)[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The best of all Religions is the yearning for the Divine and purity of deeds. [/font]

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http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org/featured/harimandir.htm

 

[Rajs]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Neutral Singh,



Historical search is required to justify your claim as to Mian Mir being the person who laid the foundation of the Golden Temple.



“Another expression of this tendency is the induction of Muslim divines into Sikh history, e.g. the by now widespread story that the foundation stone of the Hari Mandir was laid by the Sufi pîr Mian Mir. After this story was repeated again and again in his weekly column by Khushwant Singh, Sita Ram Goel wrote a detailed survey of the oldest and modernst sources pertaining to the construction of the Hari Mandir, found no trace of Mian Mir there, and concluded: “I request you to (…) stop propping up a blatant forgery simply because it has become popular and is being patronised by those who control the neo-Sikh establishment.” (S.R. Goel: “Only the truth is sacred”. Sunday Observer, 2-4-1995.) Khushwant Singh never mentioned Mian Mir again.“ (http://voi.org/books/wiah/ch8.htm)



FOUNDATION OF THE TEMPLE

(http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/heritage/golden%20T/gltemple.html)

According to the earliest Sikh tradition, Guru Arjan laid himself the foundation stone of the Harimandir himself. A mason, so goes the story, accidentally displaced the brick (foundation stone). On seeing this, the Guru prophesied that the foundation would be laid again in the near future. This version of Bhai Santokh Singh is carried by almost all subsequent Sikh sources right up to the twentieth century. Giani Gian Singh has thought it fit to add to the Version the fact that the foundation of the temple was laid by Guru Arjan on Kartik' Sudi 5, 1645 BK (AD 1588). The renowned English Scho1ar, 'M.A. Macauliffe who sought help from Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha for collecting data for his book, The Sikh Religion, records that Guru Arjan laid the foundation of the Harimandir on 1st Magh. 1645 BK (AD 1589). The same date is to be found in the Mahankosh of Kahan Singh Nabha. Two modern Sikh historians, Teja Singh Ganda Singh, accept this version. The later Sikh tradition, however, persists in believing that the foundation of the Temple was laid by the Muslim Saint, Mir Mohammad (AD 1550-1635) popularly known as Hazrat MiA Mir of Lahore, on a request from Guru Arjan, the year being the same. The first recorded reference to this version is to be met in The Punjab Notes and Queries. It records that 'The foundation-stone of the Harimandir was laid by Mian Mir, between whom and Guru Ram Das there existed a strong friendship." The contributor of the entry, E. Nicholl, (Secretary, Municipal Committee, Amritsar) does not cite any authority; he merely states the fact. Likewise, he attributes the story relating to the mason's accidentally displacing the brick and the prophecy regarding the relaying of the foundation by Mian Mir. It is a pity that this fact is not supported by any of the earlier Sikh sources, nor by Persian chroniclers including biographers of Saint Mian Mir. This tradition, however, got a strong footing in the twentieth century Sikh literature and was adopted by both Indian and European scholars writing on the subject. Soon, this version gained currency. Even the Report issued by the Darbar Sahib Authority followed this version.

(The 'Mian Mir' version was the fabrication of one writer, Buttey Shah, who was commissioned by the British, during 1850's to write 'Sikh History', and then most of the later writers followed suit. Being a Muslim, Buttey Shah wrote that the foundation stone was laid by Mian Mir - in order to glorify the Muslim Saint and inferior the status of the Sikh Gurus. There was no need for the Guru to ask Mian Mir to lay the foundation stone. Nothing was going to be achieved by this gesture. Abdali destroyed the temple thrice - if the foundation was actually laid by Mian Mir - would he dared do that? For a detailed description on the 'Foundation' read Bhai Kirpal Singh's 'Harmandir Sahib'. Bhai Sahib was the head granthi of the Golden Temple for over 26 years and he wrote this after a considerable research.

In an article written by Major H.H.Cole in "Golden Temple at Amritsar, Punjab", he writes,".....It is stated in the official list of buildings of interest published by the Punjab Government in 1875 that the DESIGN of the temple repaired by Ranjit Singh was BORROWED from the shrine of the Muhammadan Saint MIAN MIR, near Lahore (1635 AD) (article in Wall paintings of Punjab & Haryana by K.S.Kang)

It is quite a possibility that the later writers took the above as an indication to the foundation stone being laid by Mian Mir. (Kanwal) )

Regards
Rajs

 

[Neutral Singh]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Hi Raj,

Its nice that you raised this issue...

History indeed can be distorted and manipulated to suit the people with vested interests... Anybody, who is ruling the roost twists the history to suit their purpose. Even today we find people like indian ex-education minister, murli manohar joshi, changing sikh history books to demean the contribution of Sikh Gurus. So, its not a big deal if history is distorted. Sikh are open for debate and if some facts are established, then these facts are perfectly acceptable to us. We do not stick to fabrications inducted in Sikh history over the centuries. If the facts are established then thats perfectly alright for us.

But one that can never be manipulated is Granth Sahib Ji... the perpetual Sikh Guru. Sikh Gurus made it absolutely sure that nobody could manipulate Granth Sahib. Even then we have some contraversy over whether Raagmala is part of Gurbani or not. Although we have clear verdict over the issue.

But, we do not have to defend anything written 100s year after the demise of these people like Jesus & Muhammad (pbuh) and believe the scripture like Bible or Quran represent the true picture of these persons credentials. Witnessess can be easliy manipulated... Eveything can be manipulated but Gurubani can never be manipulated...

Anyways the issue that you raise is up for discussion.

Best Regards

 

[Rajs]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Neutral Singh,

"But one that can never be manipulated is Granth Sahib Ji... the perpetual Sikh Guru." - Neutral Singh

Allow me to shed some light on this misconception of yours.

Guru Arjan Dev “compiled” (i.e., collected “past” scriptures) and had it written by a “scribe” Bhai Gurdas.

It was originally called “Adi” Granth (or, Pothi Sahib) NOT Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Gobind Singh undertook preparation of the “new” edition of “Adi“ Granth, which eventually became the “Guru” Granth Sahib, scribed by Bhai Mani Singh.

The “eternal” Guru Granth Sahib, "which can never be manipulated", had its "beginning" in 1604, and completion in 1706, yet it is not called the eternal/timeless until 1708, hence overlapping five Gurus from Guru Arjan Dev to Guru Gobind Singh from its inception.

Why didn’t Guru Arjan Dev pronounce Adi Granth the “eternal/timeless” Guru in 1604?

What was the status of this holy book during the periods 1604-1706-1708 i.e., from being Adi Granth to Sri Granth, before finally declared the Guru Granth Sahib?

Why did it take 104 years for Adi Granth to become Guru Granth Sahib?

So, the Guru Granth Sahib:
Though "eternal" had its beginning in 1604;
Though "never manipulated" was altered/modified (apparently to remove some unauthorized texts) and dictated again by "another" Guru, Gobind Singh in 1706;
And finally, though "perpetual", written in 1604, yet did not become Guru until 1708.

Over to you.

Regards
Rajs

 

[Neutral Singh]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

to remove some unauthorized texts

Please provide some evidence to stake claims for your observations... What was removed ? Do you have any historical reference which conforms to your observations ?

In case of your inablity to provide some document proof as i have been providing discretely for Bible under Contradictions in Bible thread..., you would be unfortunately issued the first official warning. Count of three such warnings could invite a automatic ban for a week.

I will reply to your post shortly.

Best Regards

 

[Rajs]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Neutral Singh,

In your post you demand, "Please provide some evidence to stake claims for your observations... What was removed ? Do you have any historical reference which conforms to your observations?"

What was removed "exactly" can be asked by my source. Would you like to know the source of my observation? Sure, glad you asked. My source is SGPC. And here's the view of SGPC for your information:

"It is said that Guru Gobind Singh stayed at Damdama Sahib for nine months in 1706 and dictated the whole Adi Granth to Bhai Mani Singh. Undoubtedly, the Guru expunged certain unauthorised pieces which had crept into some pirated copies and gave it a final form."
http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/guru-granth-sahib.asp

As for your "Contradictions in the Bible" thread, all your so called contradictions have been refuted, so far, and it has been shown to be out of context with total lack of understanding on your part. Surprisingly, instead of being embarrassed about your mistakes you unashamedly proceed to next "contradiction" whilst provide no answer to question asked of you! The Bible says, "a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." (Proverbs 26:11)

Finally, there is no need to threaten me with a ban. You tried that before with a false accusation and withdrew it without an apology. Now you want to ban me for a week, tell you what, I'll take the leave myself.

In future, please get all your facts right before you embark on a discourse.

Regards
Rajs

 

[Neutral Singh]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Thanks for your kind words... I am not at all threatening you, its a warning to everybody that they should support their points with with solid evidence.

Just by refuting the contradictions in bible does not make the contradictions invisible. They are pretty obivious. I will post many more in that thread shortly!!

tried that before with a false accusation and withdrew it without an apology. Now you want to ban me for a week, tell you what, I'll take the leave myself.

Please quote where i made a false accusition. I don't want to ban you. You are always welcome.

So, I am asking you to tell me what was removed from the Guru Granth ? As I said above, people do try to manipulate the facts. People in times of Sikh Gurus also did try to twist the writings by inserting their own verses. Remember how Ram Rai who was excommunicated forever for manipulating a single word in Gurbani from Musalman to Baeman (you can search for this happening under Islam Forum-one of the earliest threads).

And remember how Vedas, Bible, Quoran have been manipulated to suit the purposes of various people from time to time.

It was due to such unsculprous people that Sikh Gurus wrote Adi Granth and then later Guru Granth, with their hands or presence and also under their offical Seal, so that future manipulations were made totally improbable. Nothing wrong with that. Seems a very practicle approach to me. Sikh Gurus did write/dictate everything in their presense. This leaves little doubt over the writings in Guru Granth Sahib's authenticity. Removing certain unauthorised pieces was done by Sikh Gurus... not like people like me, thus leaving no scope for speculation as is evident in case of other scriptures.

So, I am asking you to tell me what was removed from the Guru Granth ?

Enjoy Life !!!
Best Regards

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Harimandir Sahib Ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

it is an accepted fact that the "GRANTH" scribed by bhai gurdass ji in the presence of GURU ARJUN ji, was incomplete...as the Gurbani of Guur teg bahadur Ji had yet to come in 1604. During the time of Guur Hargobind Ji to Guur Gobind Singh Ji many hundreds of copies of this granth may have been made and as the enemies of the Panth were in "chardikala" at this time, many extras would have been added in...Bhai banno Bir is an example of addidtions made during Guru Arjun Ji's life time itself...so what about after his Shahedee and all his maal asbaab including the granth being given to Prithi Chand by Jehangir.
These unauthorised additions and the need to include Guru Teg bahdur Ji's GURBANI must have necessitated the Rescibing of the GRANTH JI by Bhai mani Singh in the presence of Guru Gobind Singh ji.
Sikhs beleive that ALL the ten Gurus were ONE JYOT - Nanak and proved it by using only the nanak name in writing all Gurbani. Since Guur Gobind Singh ji never used the name nanak in his Bani, he decided to NOT include His banis in the Granth Ji. As such GURU GOBIND SINGH JI decided to end all HUMAN GURUSHIPS and bestow Gurgadhi on Guru Granth ji..the rewritten AAd Granth of Guru arjun ji.

It is totally un-necessary to question why Guru arjun didnt call this granth GURU or why Guru Gobind Singh ji did any additions.... ALL the GURUS are ONE JYOT and not separate...and each had his part in the overall Master Plan unveiled by GURU NANAK... so its pointless to argue why this and why that. IT was GURU GOBIND SINGH JI's mission to proclaim GURU GRANTH as GURU in 1708 and He had every RIGHT as He is GURU NANAK the Tenth....and as the Tenth Nanak jyot Guru Gobind Singh had every right to alter/add/ to the "aad Granth ji as He saw fit. It is not as if an ordinary sikh is doing the adding/altering of gurbani. As the Tenth nanak Guru Gobind Singh ji knew what was GURBANI and what is extra. Guru gobind Singh ji left the Mundawni Mh 5 and Final THANKSGIVING Slok Mh 5 put in place by guru arjun as in the original Granth Ji....any subsequent "additions" by unauthorised peoples during the 18th century of turmoil could only be put in AFTER the Final Slok and thats why the raagmala appears in that position. Due to the Unique numbering/totals/and poetic composition of gurbani as well as other controls put in place by guru Arjun ji, and the unique Grammar of Gurbani...no one could add or alter any Gurbani....thats why we cna safely say Guru granth ji has come down to us as Guur Gobind Singh ji wrote it.

Jarnail Singh