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Message: <blockquote data-quote="muddymick" data-source="post: 186722" data-attributes="member: 14492">Harry Ji"I may be wrong, but I feel that one can wrestle ones state of mind using meditation and inward thoughts to achieve a similar state to drugs, thus, for me, all spiritual or supernatural states are states that are artificially induced either through substance abuse or mental gymnastics" Interesting perspective however I like you have tried many drugs (in my past and no longer)  and I have meditated for some considerable time.I have at no time found meditative states to be similar to drugs! Even certain deep absorptions in Jhana, with deep bliss are very different indeed to the effects of either drugs or any artificially induced statesCertainly Buddhist meditation is mind observing mind (no wrestling just observation) there is nothing artificial and no states are induced. No mental gymnastics are employed. I wonder where you got contrary information regarding this? It would appear that you have been misled as to what Buddhist meditation is. I would be quite happy to explain some basic meditations, that you could try.  "I do not believe they are there to be vanquished, they are there to be mastered"It would be interesting to hear how you would suggest the five thieves can be mastered?Surely (and forgive me if I am wrong here) In  the Sikhi path the 5 are neither mastered nor destroyed. When Haumai/Ahanka is reduced (or ceases to function) the five have no base to arise from. As they can only arise from the delusional dual mind that identifies self and other.I would be interested to hear how you would diminish Haumai/Ahanka without the use of 'meditation' or spiritual exercise? Kind Regards <img src="/images/smilies/sikhsmileys/winkingsingh.gif"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":winkingsingh:" title="Winkingsingh    :winkingsingh:" data-shortname=":winkingsingh:" /></blockquote>

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