Is Dasam Granth Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Bani?

[guru Daas]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
I have been reading the Dasam granth sahib from past couple of months now. I haven't read it all but some of the banis that i have read are Jaap sahib,Chaupai sahib,Akal Ustat,Var Sri Bhagauti Ji & Bachitar Natak. I didn't find anything that could suggest that its not guru sahib's creation so far but still i see controversies about Dasam granth sahib in the media all the time & even some Amritdhari Sikhs believe that its not guru ji's bani.
What is sangat's point of view. Please share

 

[ActsOfGod]

some of the banis that i have read are Jaap sahib,Chaupai sahib,Akal Ustat,Var Sri Bhagauti Ji & Bachitar Natak.

Perhaps it might be more fruitful to talk about these Bani's that you have already read and what you've learned from them.

Or better still, what have you learned from Guru Granth Sahib?

[AoG]

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

There are parts of DG which are not in dispute however.... I personally find it difficult to swallow that our Guru would write pages and pages putting the female gender in a bad light and making us out to be deceitful and lustful beings who men need to be weary of. The part I am referring to is of course Charitropakhyan. There is a huge amount of Sikhs who have hard time thinking Guru Ji would write something to cause men to hold women in contempt especially after all the Gurus did so much to spread message of equality of all humans no matter what our differences, (gender included). Since DG as an assembled Granth has a spotty history and its hard to know when exactly it was compiled, its very well could be that some was adulterated. The first time it was mentioned as a compiled granth was in 18th century, long after death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. And at first was not even referred to as Dasam Granth.

 

[guru Daas]

Perhaps it might be more fruitful to talk about these Bani's that you have already read and what you've learned from them.

Or better still, what have you learned from Guru Granth Sahib?

[AoG]

ActsOfGod ji
I believe there is no end to what you can learn from gurbani the more you read the more you know & understand. Each bani was written by the guru sahib's with a unique topic & message. So, i think one can never find the end or complete understating of SGGS the best thing is to keep on learning.

 

[swarn bains]

5 percent of dasam granth is by guru Gobind singh jee

 

[guru Daas]

5 percent of dasam granth is by guru Gobind singh jee

Swarn bains ji,
Can you please explain it briefly?

 

[ActsOfGod]

ActsOfGod ji
I believe there is no end to what you can learn from gurbani the more you read the more you know & understand. Each bani was written by the guru sahib's with a unique topic & message. So, i think one can never find the end or complete understating of SGGS the best thing is to keep on learning.

Well said. Agreed that learning from Guru Sahib is a lifelong process.

[AoG]

 

[ActsOfGod]

Good background information and some very interesting historical details:

http://dspace.lafayette.edu/bitstre...Rinehart-OxfordHandbookofSikhStudies-2014.pdf

 

[swarn bains]

I could not write after the question someone raised for the reason to mention
so it is here
I have two volumes of dasam granth.In it , sabad hazare, akall ustat, zafarnama two chaupaie, jaap sahib are guru jee's writing. rest of the 1430 pages is ram avtar and sham avtar, which is not the writings of guru jee, those are by other writers. there are writings like heer ranjha, sohni mahiwal, mirza sahiban, madhav nal kaam kandla, and hundreds of short stories poems regarding the love affairs of the daughters of some small land lords. I do not know if there is any other dasam granth.
wachitar natak is taken from markande puraan and the hindus in punjab are still running the serial on tv. chandi de war is a battle between two brothers sumbh, Nasumbh against inder, which inder won with the help of durga. Guru Gobind singh never accepted hindu mythological figures. take it what you want.

 

[guru Daas]

I could not write after the question someone raised for the reason to mention
so it is here
I have two volumes of dasam granth.In it , sabad hazare, akall ustat, zafarnama two chaupaie, jaap sahib are guru jee's writing. rest of the 1430 pages is ram avtar and sham avtar, which is not the writings of guru jee, those are by other writers. there are writings like heer ranjha, sohni mahiwal, mirza sahiban, madhav nal kaam kandla, and hundreds of short stories poems regarding the love affairs of the daughters of some small land lords. I do not know if there is any other dasam granth.
wachitar natak is taken from markande puraan and the hindus in punjab are still running the serial on tv. chandi de war is a battle between two brothers sumbh, Nasumbh against inder, which inder won with the help of durga. Guru Gobind singh never accepted hindu mythological figures. take it what you want.

Swarn bains brother
I agree with some of the points that you have made but the most interesting thing is that some of the great sikhs like Prof. Sahib Singh(Writer of SGGS Darpan & etc), Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha(Writer of Mahan Kosh & etc) & Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale never said that DG is not guru ji's bani but instead they did translations of it. Prof. Sahib Singh has also said that we get confused when we reading DG cause we don't pay enough attention & the reason for that is that when we do translation of the new words used by guru ji word by word we try to translate them according to our own thinking & modern vocabulary but what we should be doing instead is try to find these words from guru ji's own bani & see that why have they used these words & what's there real meaning.

 

[swarn bains]

May be I have the wrong copy. it is published by chatar singh jeewan singh. it has 1430 pages in two volumes. I neither tried to understand guru's wording nor I have any objection to it. those people who translate it they only translate what guru Gobind singh wrote. but they do not translate what I saw. the title of the poems are Mirza sahibaa, heer ranjha, madhav nal kaam kandla, and hundreds other such stories. the titles do not lie. it is under ram avtar and sham avtar. may be I have the wrong copy. but my eyes do not lie when I see those titles. please forgive me for my inaccuracies. by the way did you read dasam granth by yourself and understood. what copy you have. I will be happy to buy and read it. by the way I can understand ram avtar and sham avtar. God bless all

 

[guru Daas]

by the way did you read dasam granth by yourself and understood. what copy you have. I will be happy to buy and read it. by the way I can understand ram avtar and sham avtar. God bless all

The copy i have has 1220 pages,I haven't read all of it but some of the banis that i have read are Jaap sahib,Chaupai sahib,Akal Ustat,Var Sri Bhagauti Ji & Bachitar Natak & one can never say that they have complete understanding of these banis but from my point of view of understanding i couldn't find anything that would suggest that these are not guru ji's writings so far.i'm not sure about the other banis cause i haven't read them yet.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

The first mention of any writings of the tenth master were by Chhibber in his Bansavalinama some 71 years after the death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Contemporary historians of the period of Guru Gobind Singh like Sainapat, Bhai Nandlal, Chaupa Singh, Sewadas, Koer Singh or Bhai Mani Singh, make no mention of the Dasam Granth or any such writing in the period. That there is no mention at that time of any writing by Guru Gobind Singh Ji is significant!

Bansavalinama itself has been found to not be very accurate as far as dates etc and the author himself states he is not entirely sure about things and is just writing basically what he thinks. So to take this document as an accurate historical document would be foolish. Yet, somehow many do!

These facts aside, Gurgaddi was passed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only and we are told to not have any other Guru. There was not even mention of a second Granth or any writings at all by Guru Ji himself, that he would have us hold as important as 'Gurbani'.

Even if Guru Gobind Singh Ji did author a few of the works in DG it doesn't mean the entire Granth was his work. It was assembled after his death and we can't ignore the names Shayam and Ram as authors for example.

And then the point of Charitropakhyan... Basically porn stories with no apparent lesson other than do not trust women. That one section which comprises a good portion of DG as a whole, does much damage to the male psyche to instill subconsciously (or maybe even consciously) a hatred and contempt towards women. It paints women as deceivers, filled with lust and immoral to the core willing to stop at nothing to get their desires fulfilled. The only thing which is learned is that women are horrible immoral and can't be trusted. ...... Would Guru Gobind Singh Ji really write something which plants such a psychological bomb in the minds of men to condition them to hold women in such contempt?? Would he wrote stories that are so sexually descriptive that they could grace the pages of porn magazines?? How can this possibly be bani???

And I am left a bit torn because benti chaupai is last part of Charitropakhyan and is used in Amrit Sanchar. Was this bani always part of Charitropakhyan or was it added at the end (adulterated) to the other stories? Did our tenth master really view women in this way???

How much if any of DG is from Guru Gobind Singh Ji? If DG didn't exist till nearly 80 years after his death then how did Banis from it become dominant in Amrit Sanchar ceremony? What did they use prior???? Even daily nitnem uses Banis from DG. How did this compilation become so entwined in our lives if it wasn't even mentioned till nearly 80 years after the death of the tenth Guru????

 

[Ishna]

Harkiran Ji, this is what is usually brought to a head in these debates. I've pasted this from SikhiWiki here.

Bhai Mani Singh's letter to Mata Sundari Ji
An authentic letter from Bhai Mani Singh to Mata Sundari Ji exists which suggest that the Banis of the Dasam Granth are indeed genuine Banis of Guru Gobind Singh. The English translation is as follows:

May the Almighty help us.

Mani Singh makes his humble prostration at the holy feet of his venerable mother. Further news is that the climate of this place has aggravated my rheumatism and my health deteriorates fast. I will have to listen to the healing parable of the tertian fever. But my illness has caused no slackness in the performance of the holy service of the Harmandar (Golden Temple). The Khalsa no more hods away over the country and its power has waned. The Sikhs have migrated to the mountain retreats. The Malechhas reign supreme in the country. There is no security for the (Sikh) children and women in any habitation. They are hunted out and killed. The opposing states have also joined hands with them. The Hindalis spy on the Sikhs. All (the Sikhs) have deserted the Chak (The earliest name of Amritsar). The Mutsaddis (priests) have also fled. So far the Immortal Lord protects me. Tomorrow is uncertain. What is ordained by the Lord shall prevail. The adopted son of Binod Singh has passed away. Among the books I sent per Jhanda Singh, there is one entitled "303 Chritra Upakhyans" by the Lord (Guru Gobind Singh). Give that to Sihan Singh in the Mahal (Matia Mahal in the interior of Delhi City). So far there is no trace of the book "Nam Mala". I found the first part of "Krishna Avtar" but not the second. I shall send it when available. There is a rumour in the country that Banda (Bahadur) has made his good escape from the Emperor's jail. May the Guru protect him. The Guru's family (the descendants of the Guru) at Khandur have sent five tolas of gold as a gift for your son's bride(an adopted son of Mata Ji, as all of her four sons were martyred already). Recover seventeen rupees from Jhanda Singh ; I gave him five rupees to meet the expenses of the journey…(?) These expenses will be incurred by him. The Mutsaddis have not yet settled accounts, otherwise I would have sent a draft from the city (presumably Lahore) . If my health improves I shall come in the month of Kartik.

Baisakh 22

Signed - Mani Singh, Guruchak, Bunga

P.S. Reply in bamboo stick. (as being confidential)

 

[Ishna]

Also, Harkiran Ji, it must feel strange for you to recite so much of the text with your nitnem, being amritdhari.

 

[swarn bains]

Guru Gobind singh's bani as jaap sahib, sabad hazare, akal ustat, two chaupaii and zafar nama written under his guidance are his writings. rest is a bad writing by all other writers and it is promoted by those publishers who sit around Harmandir sahib to sell their books by creating confusion among those who never read it but just hear from those thieves so called saints. People who give so much credentials to dg are those who do not read it. they just hear it from those who go from gurdwara to gurdwara to reap heap of money. They have nothing to do with gurbani or gurus. they just want to get rich by inciting people. any one who reads dg and can understand it does not touch it with a ten foot pole. most of it is written by ram and sham of mathura and it is in their dialect. it is very difficult to understand unless you understand their dialect. people who hear the tales from those so called saints get excited and question the others who read it. it is not the book worth reading. If sgpc is worth a penny. it should take out guru Gobind singh bani and publish it separately. do not include chandi de war or wachitar natak. they have nothing to do with guru jee. any one who is so dedicated to dg, please read after the above writings and then start a new topic from what you understand. i full agree with madam harkiran kaur and thank her. my advice; please read dg after those above banis and then question its authenticity and credibility. There can be another solution to it. if the dg readers are so respectful of it, then why do they not make noise to include guru jees bani in sggs. by the way when he wrote sggs at damdama sahib, he did not include his banis in it.why? that is the sggs in circulation now. if you read sggs seriously you will find out the reason. Reading bhai mani singh's letter and claiming that dg is authentic. if so it is not what is in today's dg. Ishna jee read the love stories entered in it by ram and sham. the likes of heer ranjha, sohni mahiwal, madhavnal kaam kandla and hundreds mor like the beauty queen of Roop nagar, beautiful daughter of ram pur . i do not have heart and conscious to go on and on. please become compatible by reading not by hearing. What mani singh wrote in his letter probably is not even mentioned in today's dg. forgive me about my ignorance. a scholar named Maan has obtained the phd by writing thesis on dg and he also digs out what the saints dig out and he also does not get inside of today's dg. shame on him.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Not to mention that letter mentions 303 and DG contains 405 charitars. But its third party anyway and how do we know it's real? That letter also does not mention a Granth as a whole. If DG did exist (or any writing at all) then why would it not reach mainstream till nearly 80 years after his death mentioned in another compilation (Bansavalinama)?? I have more info somewhere on history that was dug up as well as other references to court poets Ram and Shayam. Also the stories in Charitropakhyan are retellings of Hindu stories (you can find them elsewhere). Why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji retell stories from another religion? What would he hope to accomplish?? A psychologist analyzed the charitars and concluded they only create subconscious contempt in minds of men towards women. In other words the purpose of the writing is a psychological assault designed to cause men to distrust and hence control women. Does that sound like Sikhi? It's no coincidence that in sects which hold DG equal to SGGSJ women are seen as lesser than men, are kept from seva, and seen as impure because of biological functions and even told to see husbands as God over them.

 

[swarn bains]

Kiran jee thank you for joining the subject. i had objected to it before but the others who do not read or understand a word past the above mentioned guru's banis made me shut up, even tried to threaten me with violence. thanks them all, by the way i have my name on the net and i will give my address to whoever wants to discuss or argue with me and threaten me.
The woman is the mother of man. Our master Guru Nanak exercises it again and again. yet we try to follow the ill written dg and disgrace the woman. shame on those who publish such books and shame on those who respect argue and fight for it without reading a word after guru Gobind singh's writing.
The worse of all is that these clever publishers have guru Godind singh's writing in the beginning and end of both volumes and the middle is filled with filth. How ignorant is the society. how clever are those amrit dhari sikh publishers. Thank God it is not written by Hindu publishers, otherwise there would be a battle fought over it like tearing the pages from sggs by our own leaders. I am an old man so i will call u Ishna.
i have a question for u. answer it truthfully. did you ever read dasam granth! because the people who read dg should only have the right to question and answer about dg

 

[swarn bains]

i remember one incident in sham avtar. there is a battle between krishan and a muslim Ajab khan. to my surprise the publisher or the writer did not know the history. Krishan lived at least two thousand years before the birth of Mohammed. they are ignorant and leave no stone unturned to sell their books and wear kara kachehra kirpan and wear a blue turban as well all of them

 

[Ishna]

Not to mention that letter mentions 303 and DG contains 405 charitars. But its third party anyway and how do we know it's real? That letter also does not mention a Granth as a whole. If DG did exist (or any writing at all) then why would it not reach mainstream till nearly 80 years after his death mentioned in another compilation (Bansavalinama)?? I have more info somewhere on history that was dug up as well as other references to court poets Ram and Shayam. Also the stories in Charitropakhyan are retellings of Hindu stories (you can find them elsewhere). Why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji retell stories from another religion? What would he hope to accomplish?? A psychologist analyzed the charitars and concluded they only create subconscious contempt in minds of men towards women. In other words the purpose of the writing is a psychological assault designed to cause men to distrust and hence control women. Does that sound like Sikhi? It's no coincidence that in sects which hold DG equal to SGGSJ women are seen as lesser than men, are kept from seva, and seen as impure because of biological functions and even told to see husbands as God over them.

Hey, I'm with you.

However passionate we feel about the DG, its authorship and it's position in Sikhi, we must remember that, for some, it is practically canon. Whichever way they reached that conclusion doesn't matter, but their sentiments need to be handled with a measure of care until the issue is formally resolved by our leadership. So we should be mindful of that when criticizing it.

Did you know that in September 2014, the Canadian Singh Sabha held a "World Sikh Conference" and passed a resolution saying that even Jaap, etc. are not relevant and that nitnem bania are only on the first 13 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj?

You can read the resolutions here... I don't want to paste the text. http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/?p=84358