We all don’t believe in living guru (dehdari guru’s). We believe in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI but as all sikh guru’s was (dehdari) in human being from now while debating we have to tell the other’s that dehdari or human can not be a guru after 10 guru’s. so i want to know from all of over sikh brother that were it is written by which guru ji that can not be a dehdari guru it is written in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI or any bani or any were please tell me so i can feel strong there.
Is Dehdari Allowed As Satguru According To Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
- Thread starter Master
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It's a interesting question some sikhs namely namdharis don't believe in the verse 'guru maneo Granth' now we can argue till the cows come home whether it is right or wrong but spending time on the technocratic aspects would be the bigger issue
Sir
There's no argument to be had, nor is there any technocratic aspect associated with theological Sikh thinking. If anything, it's absolute and definite that the "guru" in Sikhi is "shabd", meaning sound and not dehdhari, meaning sight. Guru Nanak made it absolutely clear on page 943 SGGSJ [bold, colour] "ਪਵਨ ਅਰੰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ॥ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਉ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਥਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ II
Goodnight
- Apr 13, 2006
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No idea , there is no record of it .. but I can tell you who was the Guru of Guru Angad Dev Ji, And who was Guru of Guru Amardas Ji and who was the guru of guru Ramdas ji..and so on until Tenth Guru..
The question always lingers, why do it need 10 iterations of Gurus, was the first one not good enough?
Why do we need 6 to 10 gurus when Guru Granth Sahib was composed by 5th guru?( i know , i know, it has baani of ninth guru too- but why do we have 6 to 8 gurus?)
Was Shabad Guru not prevalent at the time of Guru Angad Dev ji? or is it only Residing in Guru Granth Sahib?
What if somehow God thinks that Earthlings need Guru Nanak again? Would we be brave enough to accept as our elders accepted Guru Nanak or will we be the ones who said Guru Nanak a Kurahiya(the one who is on the wrong path)?
- May 9, 2006
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The SGGSJ contains many verses where Guru Nanak is singing about his Guru, and it doesn't appear to be any person. And this is the fundamental lynchpin to the whole idea. How could Guru Nanak be a legitimate Guru if he had no Guru before him?
That's cheating, because Guru Angad Sahib Ji tells us that air is the Guru in the Shalok of Japji Sahib.
I don't know any examples from any other Gurus off the top of my head but it would be interesting (and time consuming) to comb through SGGSJ and see.
Because God is a good enough Guru and it doesn't matter how many mouths through which Guru is expressed from, there is only one Satguru and it's not a person, it's Shabad, like Original already said.
Great question - probably one to be looked at through the lens of Sikh and Punjabi history. An organised group of people generally needs a leader. What do you think of Guru Arjan Sahib Ji sleeping on the floor after he finished SGGSJ?
It has always existed and is expressed sublimely within SGGSJ.
We have SGGSJ, which kind of renders this scenario moot.
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Ishna
Of late I've noticed lot of consistency in your writing with wider Sikh belief and value and am pleased to remark that you’re turning the corner for spiritual bouquet.
Set out below are some of my own observations to further the topic and in some respect help understand the conceptual world-view of Sikh theoretical standpoint.
The words Guru, Amrit, Bani and Shabd are used interchangeably in SGGSJ. Special attention must be had to the context within which the word "guru" is used and not within the perspective it is framed. For example, "shabd guru surat dhun chela; bani guru, guru ha bani" SGGSJ, pgs 943 and 982 respectively, are used to denote the ineffable Akal Purakh, the absolute God. Whereas, "gur eesar gur gorakh barma gur paarbati maa'ee" [gur meaning guru] SGGSJ, pg 5, are used to depict the mortal entities of the Hindu Trinity. It is this clarity and understanding that forms the basis of Sikh Theology without which the prudent student is at loss. More so, in my view would be the need to understand "sargun and nirgun". That is to say, the subjective god [physical] and the absolute god [spiritual]. Many a place the authors of Gurbani have used the word guru interchangeably to show the relative nature of subject object, meaning, creation and creator, respectively.
Because evolution needed a more complete and compatible religious ideology to epitomise the "one God" [Ekonkar] phenomenon and unite humankind universally. In order to do that there had to be the First Cause. Nanak was the First Cause who was to manifest in a series of connections and crystallise the ideal prototype human being, the sachara.
...allow me to correct on two counts:
1. The sloka in the epilogue of the Japji sahib is more a simile than an illustration to show how air n guru have similar functions in supporting the body and the spirit, respectively, without which physical and metaphysical worlds have no tangible existence.
2. The sloka is attributed to Guru Nanak and not Angad, I stand corrected.
Just as an apple has a series of evolutionary transformations before it gets juicy so did the shabd had to go through a series of physical manifestations before it finally crystalised as the spiritual SGGSJ to whet eveyones appetite.
Goodnight All
Of late I've noticed lot of consistency in your writing with wider Sikh belief and value and am pleased to remark that you’re turning the corner for spiritual bouquet.
Set out below are some of my own observations to further the topic and in some respect help understand the conceptual world-view of Sikh theoretical standpoint.
The words Guru, Amrit, Bani and Shabd are used interchangeably in SGGSJ. Special attention must be had to the context within which the word "guru" is used and not within the perspective it is framed. For example, "shabd guru surat dhun chela; bani guru, guru ha bani" SGGSJ, pgs 943 and 982 respectively, are used to denote the ineffable Akal Purakh, the absolute God. Whereas, "gur eesar gur gorakh barma gur paarbati maa'ee" [gur meaning guru] SGGSJ, pg 5, are used to depict the mortal entities of the Hindu Trinity. It is this clarity and understanding that forms the basis of Sikh Theology without which the prudent student is at loss. More so, in my view would be the need to understand "sargun and nirgun". That is to say, the subjective god [physical] and the absolute god [spiritual]. Many a place the authors of Gurbani have used the word guru interchangeably to show the relative nature of subject object, meaning, creation and creator, respectively.
Because evolution needed a more complete and compatible religious ideology to epitomise the "one God" [Ekonkar] phenomenon and unite humankind universally. In order to do that there had to be the First Cause. Nanak was the First Cause who was to manifest in a series of connections and crystallise the ideal prototype human being, the sachara.
...allow me to correct on two counts:
1. The sloka in the epilogue of the Japji sahib is more a simile than an illustration to show how air n guru have similar functions in supporting the body and the spirit, respectively, without which physical and metaphysical worlds have no tangible existence.
2. The sloka is attributed to Guru Nanak and not Angad, I stand corrected.
Just as an apple has a series of evolutionary transformations before it gets juicy so did the shabd had to go through a series of physical manifestations before it finally crystalised as the spiritual SGGSJ to whet eveyones appetite.
Goodnight All
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- May 9, 2006
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Perhaps part of the problem is that teachers, role models, community leaders are essential to any community and spiritual path. But that doesn't make them Guru in the spiritual sense... those people don't have any magical power themselves. The power is in what they teach - and the textbook is SGGSJ. The power is in the knowledge that can be obtained by careful study of SGGSJ, and is helped along greatly by teachers and community studying and living the shabad together.
Worship of any person is ridiculous - they are just a flesh and blood mortal like anybody else. They have no superpower to just tap you on the head with a magic wand and voila! you are spiritually liberated.
Worship of any person is ridiculous - they are just a flesh and blood mortal like anybody else. They have no superpower to just tap you on the head with a magic wand and voila! you are spiritually liberated.
- Apr 13, 2006
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Thanks Ishna Ji and Original Ji, Loved your responses, They were indeed good.
But still my mind is not quiet satisfied, so here goes some more questions, looking forward to hear your views
1. I agree 100% "
I observed that they are different because most of them do not have experienced Spirituality themselves, they might have a very good literal knowledge, but its knowledge from the mind, not from experience. To me 'A spiritual Guru' Should be similar to Guru Nanak Ji, who is connected to Shabad in real time.
Can knowledge be obtained by careful study?
I tried, I failed.
Whatever study I do, after sometimes its proven wrong or the meaning for those words keep changing as my understanding grows. Does it mean I have to study whole life?
Living the shabad?-- How??
100 % agree. I would like to add.
Worship of Pippal(tree in India), Basil(tulsi) etc- X -Plants are no better than humans, so why worship them.
Worship of Snakes/Mouse etc.- X - they are no better than Humans, so not worth worshiping
Worship Cow,elephants etc. X- They are quite nice(mom had a nice cow) but still no match to humans.
Worship of Humans- X- Why would I do that, I am same.
Worship of Mythical gods -X- I dont know about them, I only know about One god, these demigods if are real could be respected but not worth worship because why bother about a manager when you can talk to CEO.
Worship of SGGS- X- Its a book.
Worship of God -The one and only -worth it
- Apr 13, 2006
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Nice analogy Original Ji, but I cant agree unfortunately, Kindly discuss further..
1. Physical manifestations(10 gurus) = Living beings = Shabad in living form != SGGS != Book. Comparison should be between apples and not apples and bananas lol..
The juice(shabad) in 1st manifestation is same as of 10th.
2. What everyone appetite = God Realisation, not merely knowing the truth but to experience it.
I know god is truth, read SGGS but still something is lacking, the appetite is still there. Why?
..name me a person who's mind is satisfied ?
..define real time ?
..spiritual Sikhi is a subject of faith and not knowledge. Rational reasoning and empirical observation cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. You have to believe believe full stop.
...correct !
..shabd cannot be quantified nor qualitatively defined. It can be experienced and is formless per se. However, for the sake of this exercise, granted it is a living form [SGGSJ].
...incorrect ! Following formal logic, how can an animate [living SGGSJ] become inanimate [Book] without the intervening event, death ? Even if you were to show the organic relationship between the various manifestations in a linear cause n effect chain, you'd still arrive at a conclusion that the Book has a substance value. Moreover, if you were to reverse the syllogism, that is: Book=SGGSJ=shabd=living beings=10 Gurus, you'll have something like this:
Men exist=Santa Claus is a Man= therefore Santa Claus exists. Well, does it ?
Case in point, the science of logic cannot prove what you're trying to demonstrate.
..that's a sweeping statement !
..the golden thread that held the 10 Gurus together was the "belief" [anhad shabd], which then manifested and crystallized into what is today SGGSJ.
.."why" is a million dollar question ! The answer can be found on page 378, SGGSJ. I'll let you earn it -
Goodnight n Godbless
- Apr 13, 2006
- 95
- 55
Please see below in purple.
thanks for your wishes, same to you..name me a person who's mind is satisfied ?
..define real time ?
From real time I meant when consciousness is aware of shabad and is also doing the worldly duties- same time both functions.
..spiritual Sikhi is a subject of faith and not knowledge. Rational reasoning and empirical observation cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. You have to believe believe full stop.
My question was if knowledge can be obtained by study? We are going out of topic here. I believe in existence og God, thats why trying to find it. Problem is nobody has100% faith. If its 100% we wont need SSGS, do we? We wont be here discussing.
Why do we want to study SGGS then?
...correct !
..shabd cannot be quantified nor qualitatively defined. It can be experienced and is formless per se. However, for the sake of this exercise, granted it is a living form [SGGSJ].
...incorrect ! Following formal logic, how can an animate [living SGGSJ] become inanimate [Book] without the intervening event, death ? Even if you were to show the organic relationship between the various manifestations in a linear cause n effect chain, you'd still arrive at a conclusion that the Book has a substance value. Moreover, if you were to reverse the syllogism, that is: Book=SGGSJ=shabd=living beings=10 Gurus, you'll have something like this:
Men exist=Santa Claus is a Man= therefore Santa Claus exists. Well, does it ?
This is called argument, its a fact that SGGS is a book. I dont have to explain, its self explanatory.
---
book
bʊk/
noun
---
- 1.
a written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers.
e.g. "a book of selected poems"
synonyms: volume, tome, work, printed work, publication, title, opus, treatise;
Why unnecessary complicate things?
Book=SGGSJ=shabd=living beings=10 Gurus
Although shabad prevails in everything ,living or non living, I have shabad in me, you have it in you, Why do you need SGGS then? Why did we even require 10 gurus then?
Case in point, the science of logic cannot prove what you're trying to demonstrate.
I agree. Logic is used only to satisfy the intellect, at some stage We have to stop using logic.
..that's a sweeping statement !
..the golden thread that held the 10 Gurus together was the "belief" [anhad shabd], which then manifested and crystallized into what is today SGGSJ.
Anhad shabad- anhad= lilitless, no boundary. But you said its now crystallized into SGGS, how?
is it possible?
What is SGGS- Its collection of bani(gurbani because it was recited by our gurus). Its like a road map not the road, road is what we have to find and travel on it to reach our destination. Its not shabad, shabad is inside us, SGGS is something which explains the qualities of shabad and how to realize it. SGGS is still is a book. A big heavy Book. Whatever pretty words we use for it, it will remain a book. The text in it can never be understood
with use of our intellect. More we study more egoistic we become. From the realm of mind its impossible to understand the divine. Either we need one of 10 gurus to explain it or someone who is at the same level of God
realization.
.."why" is a million dollar question ! The answer can be found on page 378, SGGSJ. I'll let you earn it -
Thanks , I just read page 378.
I dont want to hijack this thread, but there is a line which i am unable to make any sense of , Can you please PM me if you know what it mean.
dUjy Gr ky cauqIs ] (378-19)
doojay ghar kay cha-utees.
Thirty-four Shabads in Second House. ||
Thanks
Goodnight n Godbless
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