Is God A Conscious Entity? Perspectives From Sikhism And Other Faiths

[Harman Singh]

Is god a conscious entity?

Do we have free will or do we obey his will only and are nothing but mindless pawns acting out the inevitable?

Why do we have to do anything other than simran, when simran is the way to open your mind and let the positive energy flow into you, I don't understand jap ji sahib and nor do I feel there is any added bonus in taking the time to recite it all everyday other than showing discipline and devotion, when that time can be used for much more important things? Also reading the english translation of japi sahib give me feelings of a calsh between the philosophy of sikhi i feel true and grew up learning with the actual preachings of the jap ji sahib

How can a perfect god create something imperfect?
When the gurus said they wrote the Bani as direct word of god, was waheguru, this higher state of "energy" that runs through all has life, actually speaking through them and the pen flowed and wrote the direct word of god, or was it, they meditated and wrote what they had discovered through their own enlightenment? Because, some sites I've read that guru Nanak was god himself reincarnate, others I've read he was a teacher, others that he was a 'prophet'. Am I supposed to believe he went into a river and came out three days later enlightened?

Of all those questions, my main one is, how can god be conscious? why does he not answer prayers of true devotees (not myself specifically, but I have seen people of strong faith always be upset and dwell on why god hates them). I'm a man of science and logic, and I still believe in sikhi but I find some things very odd and it's really starting to bother me seeing people around me balme everything on gods will when they need to realise they control their lives and what's ahppening around them. I am just getting back into simran and I wish my faith could be stronger, but I refuse to believe there is a "god" who allows this suffering when he has control over it, I like to think of it more as the energy of life that links every living being, an unconscious creator that is in itself "supreme life". If something happens, it is not "gods will" rather a bunch of logical actions and reactions leading to that event, in which there is no super human intervention. I can believe stronger in most of what is preached, only if this is true, that there is no super human intervention in anything... sorry if I’m rambling but it's always on my mind and I’m at a very awkward stage in my life where I want to find myself again and remove myself from this cycle of wasting my precious time and my decisions are going to really effect the people I'm around. More specifically I have a friend who is contimplating suicide and is a very nice person but feels god continues to let her down time and time again, and her prayers are never answered, but I try to explain to her that she needs to take control and that there is no intervention and praying for htings to change won't make them change, she has to do ti herself and see that there is no super human intervention that is going to make her life better. She grew up in an all girls christian schol but her parents are backwards punjabi parents with stupid stubborn thinking.

sorry again if I'm rambling but if someone can help me make sense of this I would really appreciate this. I know this isn't a support group site or anything, and it's selfish of me to come here and not contribute but take information, but if not here then where right?

Thanks again,
Harman Singh.






----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Some questions...

Alright, I'm sorry but I have to play devils advocate here. If I got my arm chopped off, why can't god, with all his power and will, grow it back? If he can get that man the job he so badly wanted, why can he not make my arm grow back?

I heard stories like that growing up form my mother all the time but stories are just that.... Sorry but that wasn't a very convincing link vaapaaraa. And Kaur-1 I will read your article tomorrow I have to run right now.

Ushta Harman

Zoroastrian -Sikh answerÑ

The Physical laws of the Cosmos are part of the Naam. God cannot violate the physical laws of the Cosmos without negating His Naam which He cannot do (He is self limited by His own nature). Thus since the Law of the Cosmos allow influence on man and his mind, (heart or feelings are also part of the mind) he can influence the mind of men to have someone hired. But since re-growing a lost limb , is not possible under the Physical Laws of Nurture. Wahe Guru,who does not violate His own nature, cannot grow the limb back

Any flaws in the above?

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Some questions...

Or are the atheists correct? Is all our piety, religousness and prayer a salve for our inability to really face the possibility there is no God at all?

It always strikes me as odd that people often ignore all the horror in the world, as if somehow all this misery we see around us is sanctioned or beneath the radar of a supreme being.

I do not know the answer. But more and more, I question blind faith itself, as it is
many ways irrational in the absence of any tangible, concrete, "obvious" evidence of a God. And it is not merely sufficient to invoke the elusiveness of the supreme being as the mark of its existence, there should be more hard analysis of our human psyche and our meek acceptance of "it must be so".

In the end, it is all subjective anyway, and what is right in one's skull is one's rightful outlook. But if faith helps to sustain a person, it is a good thing.

Sincerely

Divine Light for you

Atheist cannot be right! The Atheist cannot answer origins or causation and must deny them They have to posit the eternal existence f the Cosmos otherwise they have to live with the fact that EVERYTHING has a cause or origin.

But when they posit a Universe as eternal they are also in trouble because of change everything is runnbg down or dyeing , yet new systems come into being every day. Wherefrom? Again causation!

Thus the only ways to account for evil in a Created cosmos are:
1. God gives evil as well as good and gives evil for unknown reasons but his reasons Have to Be god for He is Good
2. There are two primal principles once creates sustains and fosters good and the other evil.
3. God is all Good m evil and good are names we give to the results of our actions. We in fact do not create good or evil we s because they ir only existence divorced of our ethical choices is as possibilities inherent in choice. Therefore Good and evil are MANIFESTED by our choices .

The Sikhi answwer would be that the only way to manifest good and not evil lies in surrendering the discretion of our free will to the Command or Eternal law of God´s Perfect Will which is good

 

[curious seeker]

Hi Harman, Divine Light for You

I will give my .02 cents about your very interesting post, even though I perceive we won't agree

Is god a conscious entity?

In the SGGS, I believe, God is said to be watching us? If He is, He is obviously conscious.

Do we have free will or do we obey his will only and are nothing but mindless pawns acting out the inevitable?


Well I believe we have talked about this before, we have limited free will I believe that is self evident. If we have free will, we must assume God gave it to us. Why? I suggest that we need Free Will because we must discern the truth and CHOOSE IT by ourselves. If we had no free will at all we would be programmable like robots or computers and then we would always do the will of the Wahe Guru. The very fact that we do not do His (Ideal) will, tells us that we do have free will and we have it because it was given to us and the purpose is to freely choose the Wahe Guru and, THEN, put our wills under the Hukam of His will. Of course we are assuming that we believe the Gurbani.

Now I am not a Sikh, at least I am not convinced about the Code of Conduct as opposed to the Gurbani, but I do know this much. God exists, and He can be experienced in any and all belief systems which are sincere and, I have experienced Him myself in different faiths and in different ways. I know He exists like I know that the sun rises every morning over the horizon and that I need to breath to be alive. More than that and more pertinent to your faith is the FACT that in the very few weeks I have been studying and reading the Gurbani I have been absolutely floored and flooded by the PRESENCE of God with an intensity and a clarity that, to be absolutely honest, I have never had experienced before in my 62 years.


Why do we have to do anything other than simran, when simran is the way to open your mind and let the positive energy flow into you, I don't understand jap ji sahib and nor do I feel there is any added bonus in taking the time to recite it all everyday other than showing discipline and devotion, when that time can be used for much more important things? Also reading the english translation of japi sahib give me feelings of a calsh between the philosophy of sikhi i feel true and grew up learning with the actual preachings of the jap ji sahib


Funny, I love and fairly well understand the Jap ji Sahib , more importantly I feel God in its words. And the thing is that I feel God in both the English and Spanish versions of the SGGS , so I think that to experience Him, the language is secondary. Sure you can UNDERSTAND better in Gurmukhi, I am sure, BUT, we already know that HE is not fully knowable by our minds and that He must be experienced and, believe you me, I do EXPERIENCE, boy do I EXPERIENCE, Him in at least two languages, for sure. Realize He is and meet him half way do not try to grasp Him with your intellect, you will fail. First EXPERIENCE Him then your intellect will understand Him better than you could do without first experiencing Him.

And please understand that I am the type of person that believes that a faith not tested is not worth having. I question everything, but when you are overwhelmed by the presence of God, there s no denying its truth and reality.


How can a perfect god create something imperfect?

First what is imperfect and what is perfect? Do we truly know this? Moreover what is imperfect us, or ability to not perceive maya without guidance? Every living thing in creation comes into being immature and develops, which infers that we are being perfected. But know this, physical life is ephemeral and ever changing, its unstable its just the hallway of eternity, if we can but get past it we will experience incomprehensible bliss and true reality.

What I have concluded through years of learning and contemplation is that God creates through His Laws the Physical creation. These Laws form the very matrix of existence and are also , like everything else, part of God, thus God cannot break them because, to break them, is to break His own nature. In other words, He is limited by His own nature. To me, pain, evil, confusion and all wrong spring out of the fact that in order to bring us unto Himself, He had to create us in the Physical and with a will so that we would learn through experience that He IS and that we can be with Him, like sons with our father-mother, for ever and in bliss, if we only surrender our wills to His hukam .

The funny thing is that I cannot prove to myself that He IS with my intellect. BUT that I KNOW it with UNBREAKABLE certainty, with TRUE GNOSIS in my heart

When the gurus said they wrote the Bani as direct word of god, was waheguru, this higher state of "energy" that runs through all has life, actually speaking through them and the pen flowed and wrote the direct word of god, or was it, they meditated and wrote what they had discovered through their own enlightenment? Because, some sites I've read that guru Nanak was god himself reincarnate, others I've read he was a teacher, others that he was a 'prophet'. Am I supposed to believe he went into a river and came out three days later enlightened?

You are supposed to believe the Gurbani and the Gurbani only, not the legends and, in my opinion not necessarily the traditions or the codes. IF you are seeking Him and you are experiencing Him you will know if something is true. For example when I visited Niramkar.com I could tell in my spirit that the Nirankar Mission is not a sincere belief system. I may be wrong I might have deluded myself, my brain tells me, but when I am experiencing God and I know His reality and then I do not experience Him elsewhere my heart KNOWS what is true and what isn't

Of all those questions, my main one is, how can god be conscious? why does he not answer prayers of true devotees (not myself specifically, but I have seen people of strong faith always be upset and dwell on why god hates them). I'm a man of science and logic, and I still believe in sikhi but I find some things very odd and it's really starting to bother me seeing people around me balme everything on gods will when they need to realise they control their lives and what's ahppening around them. I am just getting back into simran and I wish my faith could be stronger, but I refuse to believe there is a "god" who allows this suffering when he has control over it, I like to think of it more as the energy of life that links every living being, an unconscious creator that is in itself "supreme life". If something happens, it is not "gods will" rather a bunch of logical actions and reactions leading to that event, in which there is no super human intervention. I can believe stronger in most of what is preached, only if this is true, that there is no super human intervention in anything... sorry if I’m rambling but it's always on my mind and I’m at a very awkward stage in my life where I want to find myself again and remove myself from this cycle of wasting my precious time and my decisions are going to really effect the people I'm around. More specifically I have a friend who is contimplating suicide and is a very nice person but feels god continues to let her down time and time again, and her prayers are never answered, but I try to explain to her that she needs to take control and that there is no intervention and praying for htings to change won't make them change, she has to do ti herself and see that there is no super human intervention that is going to make her life better. She grew up in an all girls christian schol but her parents are backwards punjabi parents with stupid stubborn thinking.

OOH There is a ton here. People who blame God for not getting an answer, are blaming Him for not giving them what they want, but maybe what they want is not what they need, or maybe to get what they want would entail that God would have to violate His Eternal Law and deny His own nature and He cannot deny Himself. Or maybe silence is in itself an answer. But by the same token I know many people, including myself, who very often experience answered prayer mostly in the positive sense. In fact I would almost wager, if that was not a nono in the Code , that answered prayer is far more common than unanswered prayer.

Furthermore, if you are using your free will, you are receiving your karma, my friend, is not that God wants you to suffer is that His Laws, that He cannot break, enforce His Ideal Perfect Will and His Ideal Perfect Will includes, among other things, justice and fairness. Ye shall reap what ye sows!

Science can only answer how questions NEVER WHY questions, and even those questions that it can answer it can only answer with absolute certainty when experimentation and duplicaton and falsification, the three principles of the Scientific Method can be applied to what ever Science is seeking to determine.

Thus when origins, for example, can not be reproduced, repeated or falsified, then Science cannot, absolutely, prove anything about it - And this applies to a myriad of every day circumstances. I mean that is why we have juries and why they work not on certainty but on preponderance of evidence, and that is why from time time innocent people get convicted and guilty people get off scot free. Logic itself has its limits In Quantum physics, for example, two different things can occupy the same space at the same time and that is wildly illogical, or so we thought

The problem with Science and logic is that we are ignorant, that is, we lack knowledge and if we do not wait to acquire it and plunge ahead with unconfirmed beliefs we more than likely will be proven to be wrong in action AND belief

sorry again if I'm rambling but if someone can help me make sense of this I would really appreciate this. I know this isn't a support group site or anything, and it's selfish of me to come here and not contribute but take information, but if not here then where right?

Thanks again,
Harman Singh.

Dear Harman , I can't speak for others here, but I imagine that most of them being Sikh they probably feel this more than I do, to me, its both a pleasure and a blessing to help some one in any way that I can with my very limited knowledge
esides is seva, (spelling?) isn't i?_

May you experience the Endless Light

Curious






----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

 

[curious seeker]

Re: Some questions...

Or are the atheists correct? Is all our piety, religousness and prayer a salve for our inability to really face the possibility there is no God at all?

It always strikes me as odd that people often ignore all the horror in the world, as if somehow all this misery we see around us is sanctioned or beneath the radar of a supreme being.

I do not know the answer. But more and more, I question blind faith itself, as it is
many ways irrational in the absence of any tangible, concrete, "obvious" evidence of a God. And it is not merely sufficient to invoke the elusiveness of the supreme being as the mark of its existence, there should be more hard analysis of our human psyche and our meek acceptance of "it must be so".

In the end, it is all subjective anyway, and what is right in one's skull is one's rightful outlook. But if faith helps to sustain a person, it is a good thing.

Sincerely

Hi

Outside spiritual experience is possible to doubt, however, the atheists also have no proofs so they also believe in their own way, a negative belief but a belief any way. I don't know about 'people' but I certainly do not ignore pain and sorrow. they are very real and strike in both suspected and unsuspected places and times. However, these things have to be a given if you have a temporal and ephemeral physical reality. To me its obvious that the laws of nature, which are part of the Creator, for whatever reason, cannot eliminate physical change It probably has to do with things like the curvature of the space time continuum, the presence of chance, etc. But more than likely is designed to be that way, after all, an eternal physical universe would mean man more than likely would not progress spiritually and the Justice and Fairness of the Creator could not work through rebirth

But for whatever reason, its something that we night not be able to understand But can definitely accept if you are in communion at least partially, with Wahe Guru

Besides, what is the alternative, not to exist? Not to be born not to experience the many pleasures of life? Because let us not forget that life is not just a vale of tears, OK? In fact if you take the average person's life most of it is more than tolerable. People are extremists, they either look at life and say its a positive or it is negative, no in betweens. Life is what it is, the gift of existence, of becoming and for he believer the possibility of undreamed of bliss in the arms of the creator

But faith is all about experience, if you haven't had a deep spiritual experience, then faith is hard to have. Recognize the ephemeral and unstable nature of life. Recognize that given our empirical knowledge of causation there is a very good change (I would say more than excellent) that there is a Creator. Recognize that creatures are ignorant and lack knowledge, recognize that this, very possible, Creator has to be incredibly wise, powerful and deep (to start out with the very fact that He is creator must mean He transcends, at least partially the physical reality that He has created) Then suspend judgment for a second and go to him recognizing your smallness and His greatness and justs stop willing and striving with the physical illusions that separate you from the presence. Put away your ego. He is everywhere ask him for help, offer yourself to Him in sincerity, surrender for a second, recognize your ego and let it go and see if He does not touch you, see if you won't experience Him. Because, my friend, if you are sincere and you seek Him in humility and with an open mind and heart, you will find Him. I, for one, have found him in the strangest of places and even in some religions that I cannot accept myself He is there!

Try it, you might indeed get to have an encounter ... of the God kind!!

Wishing Bliss
Curious

 

[harbansj24]

The closest anybody who has got to on theorising on the origin of universe and its limits is the human genius Stephen Hawkins. But he too in brilliant book "A Brief History of Time" runs into many unexplained and inexplicable contradictions.
Though he claims that there is no God and and everything can be explained as an extension of the "Big Bang", he fails to convincingly explain what was it that caused the Big bang.
I feel that human beings do not have the capability to understand it absolutely and supposing they do acquire that capability, then we will cease to exist as human beings!!!

 

[Astroboy]

YouTube- The description of "GOD", from Upanishids (Hindu Scripture)

 

[Astroboy]

ਜੀਅ ਜਾਤਿ ਰੰਗਾ ਕੇ ਨਾਵ ॥
जीअ जाति रंगा के नाव ॥
Jī▫a jāṯ rangā ke nāv.
The names and the colors of the assorted species of beings

ਸਭਨਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਵੁੜੀ ਕਲਾਮ ॥
सभना लिखिआ वुड़ी कलाम ॥
Sabẖnā likẖi▫ā vuṛī kalām.
were all inscribed by the Ever-flowing Pen of God.

ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
एहु लेखा लिखि जाणै कोइ ॥
Ėhu lekẖā likẖ jāṇai ko▫e.
Who knows how to write this account?

ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕੇਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
लेखा लिखिआ केता होइ ॥
Lekẖā likẖi▫ā keṯā ho▫e.
Just imagine what a huge scroll it would take!

ਕੇਤਾ ਤਾਣੁ ਸੁਆਲਿਹੁ ਰੂਪੁ ॥
केता ताणु सुआलिहु रूपु ॥
Keṯā ṯāṇ su▫ālihu rūp.
What power! What fascinating beauty!

ਕੇਤੀ ਦਾਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੌਣੁ ਕੂਤੁ ॥
केती दाति जाणै कौणु कूतु ॥
Keṯī ḏāṯ jāṇai kouṇ kūṯ.
And what gifts! Who can know their extent?

ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
कीता पसाउ एको कवाउ ॥
Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!

ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਲਖ ਦਰੀਆਉ ॥
तिस ते होए लख दरीआउ ॥
Ŧis ṯe ho▫e lakẖ ḏarī▫ā▫o.
Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.

ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
Kuḏraṯ kavaṇ kahā vīcẖār.
How can Your Creative Potency be described?

ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
वारिआ न जावा एक वार ॥
vāri▫ā na jāvā ek vār.
I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
जो तुधु भावै साई भली कार ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā▫ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੬॥
तू सदा सलामति निरंकार ॥१६॥
Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||16||
You, Eternal and Formless One! ||16||

Srigranth Page 3

 

[Astroboy]

Page 16, Line 3
ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰੀਐ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ॥
सो किउ मनहु विसारीऐ जा के जीअ पराण ॥
So ki▫o manhu visārī▫ai jā ke jī▫a parāṇ.
How can you forget the One who created your soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life?
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

[/SIZE]

 

[Astroboy]

ਹੋਰੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥੧॥
होरु कितै भगति न होवई बिनु सतिगुर के उपदेस ॥१॥
Hor kiṯai bẖagaṯ na hova▫ī bin saṯgur ke upḏes. ||1||
There is no other way to perform devotional worship, except through the Teachings of the True Guru. ||1||
Ang 22

 

[spnadmin]

This thread has been split so that the original article and perspectives from other faiths now constitute an interfaith dialog. The original article has also been copied and moved with older posts as a separate thread to the Sikh, Sikhi, Sikhism section. Please stay on topic.

 

[curious seeker]

PRECISELY!!!!