Near Death Experiences

[Abneet]

Every has read atleast one testimony about near-death experiences.

But why does every person from different religion see something different.

Christians see the light of Jesus Christ apparently, and Muslims see light of Allah.

From my view no one has the right answer since they haven't died fully yet.

What are your guys take on this?

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

But why does every person from different religion see something different.

Abneet Ji

They don't see/experience different things -- they all see "a light" etc.

The "interpretation" may be different -- but the experiences seem to be the same -- cross-culture as well as cross-religion.

Akiva

 

[Serjinder Singh]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

At the time of near death the supply of oxygen to the brain begins to dwindle on stopping the heart. Somehow the supply of oxygen to neurons involved in memory storage and memory retrieval diminishes depending on when the memories were stored. The earliest memories recordings are lost last of all compared with the recent memories. Conciousness still working before pending death can only recall or experience memory from only the neurons still alive. We all see that in old people with dementia they keep talking about persons long gone but they knew in childhood. The case of near death experience is also the last memory people retrieve or experience is that of the moment when as the babies in the womb they began to come out of the nine months of the darkness of the womb. The outside light seen through the birth canal is the first visual memory recording. This is what most persons in this event recall as being in a dark tunnel proceeding towards an immensly bright light. We may give it whatever religious colour we want but it is the birth vision memory. Another thing commonly mentioned is that it was immensly pleasant and peaceful, something they never experienced in life. At the time of birth a child's brain or the appropriate glands release large amounts of endorphins that help the child to overcome the difficulty of birth and feel comfortable. It is this pleasant memory persons recall and begin to relate it to the 'Other World'.

Of course, if one survives on getting the heart working again and oxygen supply resuming to the neurons that were about to die, the person would remember this experience of recalling the earliest memory.

The first cries of the baby are not due to any pain in the womb or the birth process but is a reflex that helps clear the infant's lungs of the amonic fluid to help begin the breathing process.

Serjinder Singh

 

[kds1980]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

At the time of near death the supply of oxygen to the brain begins to dwindle on stopping the heart. Somehow the supply of oxygen to neurons involved in memory storage and memory retrieval diminishes depending on when the memories were stored. The earliest memories recordings are lost last of all compared with the recent memories. Conciousness still working before pending death can only recall or experience memory from only the neurons still alive. We all see that in old people with dementia they keep talking about persons long gone but they knew in childhood. The case of near death experience is also the last memory people retrieve or experience is that of the moment when as the babies in the womb they began to come out of the nine months of the darkness of the womb. The outside light seen through the birth canal is the first visual memory recording. This is what most persons in this event recall as being in a dark tunnel proceeding towards an immensly bright light. We may give it whatever religious colour we want but it is the birth vision memory. Another thing commonly mentioned is that it was immensly pleasant and peaceful, something they never experienced in life. At the time of birth a child's brain or the appropriate glands release large amounts of endorphins that help the child to overcome the difficulty of birth and feel comfortable. It is this pleasant memory persons recall and begin to relate it to the 'Other World'.

Of course, if one survives on getting the heart working again and oxygen supply resuming to the neurons that were about to die, the person would remember this experience of recalling the earliest memory.

The first cries of the baby are not due to any pain in the womb or the birth process but is a reflex that helps clear the infant's lungs of the amonic fluid to help begin the breathing process.

Serjinder Singh

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1. People see and hear things that would be impossible while they are unconscious.

Many of the patients who have been revived have been able to describe in great technical detail exactly what went on in the operating room during the time they were supposedly unconscious or dead. Dr Michael Sabom, an American cardiologist, interviewed 100 hospital patients who had narrowly escaped death. Of these 61 per cent reported experiencing classical NDE. He investigated whether these patients were using their imagination, or knowledge that they had subconsciously picked up through earlier hospital experiences.

He asked those who had not had a NDE to imagine watching a medical team reviving a heart attack victim and to describe in as much detail as possible the steps being taken. To his surprise 80% could not describe the steps the medical team would take. On the other hand not one person in the group which claimed to have witnessed what happened while out of their bodies made a mistake in describing the procedure. (Sabom 1980: 120-121).
http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence/nde.htm

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[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

The case of near death experience is also the last memory people retrieve or experience is that of the moment when as the babies in the womb they began to come out of the nine months of the darkness of the womb. The outside light seen through the birth canal is the first visual memory recording. This is what most persons in this event recall as being in a dark tunnel proceeding towards an immensly bright light. We may give it whatever religious colour we want but it is the birth vision memory.
Serjinder Singh

QUite possibly true -- Grof's work in transpersonal psychology (My minor in college) lends support to that.

A problem with that theory, though, is that people who underwent caesarian births can also also experience the same "tunnel of light" in the same way. Which would seem to rule out the birth canal experience.

Another problem is that the "birth canal" experience is not a peaceful experience. It's traumatic, violent, dark, suffocating. Not what people report in NDE.

But he also has documented experiences beyond the birth experience -- the transpersonal realm -- where one's individual consciousness is only part of a greater whole. Experiences common to people from different backgrounds, cultures, and religions.

Ultimately, mainstream science has no verifiable theory of just what "consciousness" is.

(I'm specifically not including those scientists who speculate about "fields of consciousness", "quantum consciousness", "morphic fields", etc since their theories also aren't verifiable.)

Akiva

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

If some people think the visual and auditory hallucinations experienced due to the interplay of cytokines, endorphins, dopamine etc (which are released due to the pushing of human body's normal physiological limits) are 'Near death experiences' as if they have returned from the gates of death, I can only pity them. It is the year 2013 and Science books are not so hard to get

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I'm specifically not including those scientists who speculate about "fields of consciousness", "quantum consciousness", "morphic fields", etc since their theories also aren't verifiable.

Ever heard of pseudoscientists?
Some self-fashioned scientists even claim to support creationism, refute evolution and yeah, the Near death experience drama.

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

It is the year 2013 and Science books are not so hard to get

Ah, but the question is which science books. What assumptions are those books/theories based on (often unverified). What biases do the authors bring to their books.

Any "mechanicalist" theory, for example, will automatically exclude, from the beginning, any possibility of a "spiritual" component. When discussing physics that's not a problem. When discussing consciousness it is.

As soon as a scientist starts including anything more than a purely mechanical model to his work he finds himself excluded from the realm of "real scientists".

(see http://blog.ted.com/2013/03/14/open-for-discussion-graham-han{censored}-and-rupert-sheldrake/ for a good example. Especially watch Han{censored} and Sheldrake's talks -- then read the blog texts. )

Akiva

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Ah, but the question is which science books.

The need is to cultivate a scientific temper. For an instance, take the present example of NDE. I don't think there is any 'proper' research paper based on a good sample size proving any spiritual significance of NDE. It is as ill-proved a theory as that of Santa Claus. The burden of explanation lies on the supporters of this theory, and they haven't been able to produce a single decent research paper. The newspaper headlines 'Scientist finds proof to soul', 'God explained by Quantum mechanics' etc etc have been appearing since many decades, sadly such pseudoscientists have grossly failed the test of time. There may even be NDE researches proving such happenings to be partially or wholly physiological, I haven't dug deep fearing waste of time on such a topic.
But yeah, if I may recommend some books, 'The extended phenotype' and 'The Grand design' are good reads.

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

But why does every person from different religion see something different.

The answer lies in your own question. People see such things by their own prejudices. Such hallucinations are empty 'fill in the blanks', a Christian fills Jesus, a Muslim fills Allah, and similarly a Sikh will claim to have 'met' with his own version of Waheguru.

Christians see the light of Jesus Christ apparently, and Muslims see light of Allah.

Why does this 'God' wait till NDE to function as a lightbulb? Does this 'God' like only Near death survivors, and that too, not even everyone among this minority?

From my view no one has the right answer since they haven't died fully yet.

I dont believe anyone will come back from death to tell. Jesus did (as many believe, not me) ressurect once, but even he didn't tell anything about NDE.

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

But yeah, if I may recommend some books, 'The extended phenotype' and 'The Grand design' are good reads.

I've read Dawkins -- and consider him a classic hypocrite. He's more than willing -- and admits it -- to condemn ideas that don't fit his world view without any research into those ideas. He refuses to examine evidence for scientific positions that are contrary to his own.

He also admits -- in an interview in New Scientist some years ago -- to not being a hard scientist but more a scientific philosopher, more interested in presenting his ideas than in scientific research.

I also know, from first hand experience, that he's more than willing to twist what people say to further his agenda. (specifically, his "documentary" on religion about 6 or 7 years ago)

In other words, I consider him totally untrustworthy.

Akiva

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I've read Dawkins -- and consider him a classic hypocrite. He's more than willing -- and admits it -- to condemn ideas that don't fit his world view without any research into those ideas. He refuses to examine evidence for scientific positions that are contrary to his own.

This is a serious accusation. Can you give any example to prove your point?

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Btw such is the illustrious career of Prof. Dawkins Ji,

1954-1959 Oundle School
1959-1962 Balliol College, Oxford University
1962-1966 Research Student, Oxford University (D.Phil., 1966)
1965-1967 Research Assistant to Professor N.Tinbergen FRS
1967-1969 Assistant Professor of Zoology, University of California, Berkeley
1969-1970 Senior Research Officer, Department of Zoology, Oxford
1970-1990 University Lecturer (US: Adjunct Professor) in Zoology, and Fellow of New College, Oxford
1989 D.Sc. (Oxford)
1990-1995 Reader in Zoology (US: "Associate Professor" or "Full Professor"), Oxford University
1995-2008 Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science,University of Oxford, and Professorial Fellow of New College

 

[punjabivirsa]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

You cannot understand Near Death Experience with 5 sense parameters alone. This is not something that can be tested by scientists in lab and since they don't see any evidence with 5 senses inside lab they try to make it look like a foolish dream due to lack of oxygen comic theory.

One such Fanatic Phycho Scientist is Dawkins.

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

since they don't see any evidence with 5 senses inside lab they try to make it look like a foolish dream due to lack of oxygen comic theory.

IMHO this NDE theory is even more comic.

One such Fanatic Phycho Scientist is Dawkins.

Please mind your language regarding Prof Dawkins Ji. He is a great scientist and a man of reason, and I have high regard for him.

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

1) check any of his recent comments on Islam and his admitted lack of knowledge thereof -- but how he's still willing (and feels qualified/justified) to comment on it;

2) watch the lecture by Sheldrake -- I believe he goes into details about Dawkins there as well

3) His refusal to debate WIlliam Craig Lane

4) ANy decent library should have the interview in New Scientist -- my copy is packed away and I don't have the time to did through back issues to find it. It was from the early-mid 90's

Akiva

 

[akiva]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Please mind your language regarding Prof Dawkins Ji. He is a great scientist and a man of reason, and I have high regard for him.

And many of us don't.

Respect goes both ways. When he's willing to respect Religious Believers (while disagreeing with their beliefs) then, and only then, will he deserve respect.

(Because his only claim to fame these days is as the main spokesman for the "New Athiests" and their movement for "Reason")

Akiva

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

I believe what could be have been a stimulating discussion has decayed into a mud slinging competition. I wont be posting on this thread until someone makes a valid point backed by a valid proof.

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

1) check any of his recent comments on Islam and his admitted lack of knowledge thereof -- but how he's still willing (and feels qualified/justified) to comment on it;

2) watch the lecture by Sheldrake -- I believe he goes into details about Dawkins there as well

3) His refusal to debate WIlliam Craig Lane

4) ANy decent library should have the interview in New Scientist -- my copy is packed away and I don't have the time to did through back issues to find it. It was from the early-mid 90's

Akiva

I don't think these things show he is not qualified to make an informed scientific point.
Whatever he says about any religion, does not decrease his merit as a scientist.
P.S.-I would have answered your accusations point by point, but this thread is not about Prof Dawkins Ji, it is a very separate topic.

 

[aristotle]

Re: Near Death Experiencess

Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig. This Christian 'philosopher' is an apologist for genocide. I would rather leave an empty chair than share a platform with him.
-Prof Dawkins
Source: guardiannews.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/20/richard-dawkins-william-lane-craig

Salute!