Sanctuary Of The Saints = Babas And Deras?

[Ishna]

I've been reading a lot of Gurbani lately (translations...) and I continue to get hung up on this issue.

This was posted on another thread very recently:

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Po Santh Saranee Laag Charanee Mittai Dhookh Andhhaar ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||


ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਏਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰ ॥
Sath Santhokh Dhaeiaa Kamaavai Eaeh Karanee Saar ||
Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.


ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਰੇਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Aap Shhodd Sabh Hoe Raenaa Jis Dhaee Prabh Nirankaar ||3||
One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||


ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo Dheesai So Sagal Thoonhai Pasariaa Paasaar ||
All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kahu Naanak Gur Bharam Kaattiaa Sagal Breham Beechaar ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||
​

Since Sikhi emphasises Sadh Sangat and is full of references similar to line ||2|| above, then what's wrong with Babas and Deras and following saints...

I notice Findingmyway said recently about the word 'Sant', when it has an aukad, is in reference to Akaal Purakh.

But what about when it doesn't?

I can provide lots more examples if required.

 

[spnadmin]

Here is the full shabad from Ang 51. I do not know if having the complete shabad changes the significance of Sanctuary of the Saints for you.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag,
Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਚਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਪੂਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
Sancẖ har ḏẖan pūj saṯgur cẖẖod sagal vikār.
Gather in the Wealth of the Lord, worship the True Guru, and give up all your corrupt ways.

ਜਿਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Jin ṯūʼn sāj savāri▫ā har simar ho▫e uḏẖār. ||1||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord who created and adorned you, and you shall be saved. ||1||

ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Jap man nām ek apār.
O mind, chant the Name of the One, the Unique and Infinite Lord.

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਦੀਆ ਰਿਦੇ ਕਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Parān man ṯan jinėh ḏī▫ā riḏe kā āḏẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He gave you the praanaa, the breath of life, and your mind and body. He is the Support of the heart. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār māṯe vi▫āpi▫ā sansār.
The world is drunk, engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism.

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Pa▫o sanṯ sarṇī lāg cẖarṇī mitai ḏūkẖ anḏẖār. ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||

ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਏਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰ ॥
Saṯ sanṯokẖ ḏa▫i▫ā kamāvai eh karṇī sār.
Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.

ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਰੇਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Āp cẖẖod sabẖ ho▫e reṇā jis ḏe▫e parabẖ nirankār. ||3||
One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo ḏīsai so sagal ṯūʼnhai pasri▫ā pāsār.
All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram kāti▫ā sagal barahm bīcẖār. ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||

The shabd in the 5th mehla are the words of Guru Arjan Dev. In the rehao line he says

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਦੀਆ ਰਿਦੇ ਕਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Parān man ṯan jinėh ḏī▫ā riḏe kā āḏẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He gave you the praanaa, the breath of life, and your mind and body. He is the Support of the heart. ||1||Pause||

Just a question, but I am not clear why you equate Sanctuary of the Saints = Babas and Deras. Instead of other equations. That is just some confusion on my part. Why you zoned in on babas and deras?

Anyway, the shabad lays out a pathway impossible to reach through babas in a dera cuture. Seek the sanctuary of the saints and fall at their feet, with the intention of practicing truth, kindness and compassion.

In dera practice the baba is the source of blessing and the efforts of the disciple are under the direction of the baba, often for the baba's benefit .

Yet, in this shabad blessing comes from the Nirankar, the formless lord. The blessings are life, mind and body and support of the heart. Can a baba could give these blessings?

Does a baba really remove spiritual doubts from without? Is the shabad telling us that this work is done from within?

I ask this because Guru Arjan Dev is saying that when we live that excellent life of truth, kindness and compassion, and if we turn our sight only to the Akaal and Nirankar, then we are able to renounce selfishness and see God in All.

We do the work with the support of the Formless and Timeless Nirankar. No human intermediary to give instructions and then garnish the wages of our devotion.

That is just my quick sense of what is being said. A human baba is a mere mortal, who gives and who takes. The real baba is timeless and formless, gives and asks nothing in return. I have not answered the question who are the Saints. I do suspect the meaning changes depending on the context of the shabad. I doubt the sants would be self-seekers doling out blessings for a price. Rather, the dust of their feet, maybe the residue of their own devotion, removes suffering and does not add to the worldly burdens of a devotee.

 

[Luckysingh]

I've been reading a lot of Gurbani lately (translations...) and I continue to get hung up on this issue.

This was posted on another thread very recently:

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Po Santh Saranee Laag Charanee Mittai Dhookh Andhhaar ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||


ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਏਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰ ॥
Sath Santhokh Dhaeiaa Kamaavai Eaeh Karanee Saar ||
Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.


ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਰੇਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Aap Shhodd Sabh Hoe Raenaa Jis Dhaee Prabh Nirankaar ||3||
One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||


ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo Dheesai So Sagal Thoonhai Pasariaa Paasaar ||
All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kahu Naanak Gur Bharam Kaattiaa Sagal Breham Beechaar ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||
​

Since Sikhi emphasises Sadh Sangat and is full of references similar to line ||2|| above, then what's wrong with Babas and Deras and following saints...

I notice Findingmyway said recently about the word 'Sant', when it has an aukad, is in reference to Akaal Purakh.

But what about when it doesn't?

I can provide lots more examples if required.

The word 'sant ' is used in many places in gurbani and it also references slightly different meanings.
However, it does not have a correct translation equivalent in english and it is mostly written as 'Saint'

NOTE-that 'saint' is something sactioned by the church and does not conform to a pure sant.

True Sants are very rare in my opinion and hard to come by.

Gurbani makes references to sant in similar ways of expression as Gurmukh, lowly slave,true servant, pure being, brahmgyani, atamgyani, a devoted bhagat, the mool, pure consciousness....etc...

Doing a search for ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ, you see that servant, slave, devotee, gurmukh, Sant...etc....all come up!
Therefore, we can see that it is quite difficult to give an exact translation of true Sant even, But we can deduce that it is pure love,devotion to the lord of the highest order, where one becomes totally detached to worldly things.


Now, another simple little test that we can use as a basic sikhi element will also knock out the majority that are self confined within the 'sant bubble' !!

A sikh's life should have a core of Kirat karni, vand shakna and naam japna.
Just looking at the Kirat kamahee, we know that a sikh must earn his food and wealth by an honest means.
He should truthfully work just as others in society to earn the roti he eats and the clothes he wears.
Getting ALL his wealth and livelihood from sangat donations is NOT Kirat Kamahee in any way !!

I don't believe that according to gurbani, that these commercial sants have the right to even call themelves 'Sant'

You mention the most popular deras and babas for example, and I know that we can't judge to say that they are ALL good or bad. But their conduct and actions can tell us more than a psychologist !

I would call them 'freeloaders', since they live and gather wealth from sangat donations.
They have never even worked or sweat for a dollar and roti anywhere!

They fly 1st class for their world tours like rock stars !
They even have an entourage like rockstars consisting of 20 plus cheley!
Then they get picked up from airports and whisked around in luxury cars to their venues which are like sold out gigs.

Is their even a slight amount of Gurmat in that to earn the pure devotee and humble title of Sant ??????


Below is a shabad from ang 1245, that points in the same direction as my comment.


ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

Salok mėhlā 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:


ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੀਤ ॥

Gi▫ān vihūṇā gāvai gīṯ.

The one who lacks spiritual wisdom sings religious songs.


ਭੁਖੇ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਘਰੇ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥

Bẖukẖe mulāʼn gẖare masīṯ.

The hungry Mullah turns his home into a mosque.


ਮਖਟੂ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਏ ॥

Makẖtū ho▫e kai kann paṛā▫e.

The lazy unemployed has his ears pierced to look like a Yogi.


ਫਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥

Fakar kare hor jāṯ gavā▫e.

Someone else becomes a pan-handler, and loses his social status.


ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਸਦਾਏ ਮੰਗਣ ਜਾਇ ॥

Gur pīr saḏā▫e mangaṇ jā▫e.

One who calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging


ਤਾ ਕੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਲਗੀਐ ਪਾਇ ॥

Ŧā kai mūl na lagī▫ai pā▫e.

- don't ever touch his feet.


ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥

Gẖāl kẖā▫e kicẖẖ hathahu ḏe▫e.

One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has


ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥੧॥

Nānak rāhu pacẖẖāṇėh se▫e. ||1||

- O Nanak, he knows the Path. ||1||

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And GURU ARJUN ji also states quite clearly in Sukhmani Sahib...MANUKH KI TEAK BIRTHEE JAAN....Dependance on a HUMAN is WORTHLESS !! Now lets see which Baba and whiuch DERA the SANT is NOT a HUMAN ??..is NOT a MANUKH...with HUMAN FAILINGS...??? THATS the REAL"SANT" and FITS 100% the Sukhmani DESCRIPTION...SANT Brahmgyani etc..

 

[Ishna]

Adminji, I made the connection to babas and deras because so many people seem to gather around their 'saint' and serve him, so I thought perhaps they were getting this idea from the Gurbani.

I'm still unclear. The entire shabad you quoted didn't help me put the sentence into context. In fact, whenever those references crop up as I read they just don't seem to fit with the theme of the shabads. In some instances it even seems contradictory!

I need to find a few more examples to make my case clear. I think there is a problem with the translation or the interpretation of the whole concept of 'sant' and 'sadh' in Gurbani. Related to it is the issue of Sadhsang. But one thing at a time!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I've been reading a lot of Gurbani lately (translations...) and I continue to get hung up on this issue.

This was posted on another thread very recently:

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Po Santh Saranee Laag Charanee Mittai Dhookh Andhhaar ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||


ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਏਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰ ॥
Sath Santhokh Dhaeiaa Kamaavai Eaeh Karanee Saar ||
Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.


ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਰੇਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Aap Shhodd Sabh Hoe Raenaa Jis Dhaee Prabh Nirankaar ||3||
One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||


ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo Dheesai So Sagal Thoonhai Pasariaa Paasaar ||
All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kahu Naanak Gur Bharam Kaattiaa Sagal Breham Beechaar ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||
​

Since Sikhi emphasises Sadh Sangat and is full of references similar to line ||2|| above, then what's wrong with Babas and Deras and following saints...

I notice Findingmyway said recently about the word 'Sant', when it has an aukad, is in reference to Akaal Purakh.

But what about when it doesn't?

I can provide lots more examples if required.

Ishna ji,
Guru Fateh.
My take is in maroon and I have put the Rahao in bold because that is the starting point of the whole Shabad for me.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag,
Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਚਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਪੂਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
Sancẖ har ḏẖan pūj saṯgur cẖẖod sagal vikār.
Gather in the Wealth of the Lord, worship the True Guru, and give up all your corrupt ways.
Breed goodness within and worship the inner dweller which will make you wander no more.

ਜਿਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Jin ṯūʼn sāj savāri▫ā har simar ho▫e uḏẖār. ||1||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord who created and adorned you, and you shall be saved. ||1||
You will do fine. The Source created you with all the good traits.

ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Jap man nām ek apār.
O mind, chant the Name of the One, the Unique and Infinite Lord.
Oh Mind, let The One dwell in there.

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਦੀਆ ਰਿਦੇ ਕਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Parān man ṯan jinėh ḏī▫ā riḏe kā āḏẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He gave you the praanaa, the breath of life, and your mind and body. He is the Support of the heart. ||1||Pause||
The One gave you the breath of life along with the mind and body.rahā▫o.


ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār māṯe vi▫āpi▫ā sansār.
The world is drunk, engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism.
This world is engulfed with negative vibes.

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Pa▫o sanṯ sarṇī lāg cẖarṇī mitai ḏūkẖ anḏẖār. ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||
Seek the people with goodness, join them to get rid of darkness. Wisdom shall be attained.

ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਏਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰ ॥
Saṯ sanṯokẖ ḏa▫i▫ā kamāvai eh karṇī sār.
Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.
This will make you dwell in The Truth, serenity and compassion. The only way to live.

ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਰੇਣਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Āp cẖẖod sabẖ ho▫e reṇā jis ḏe▫e parabẖ nirankār. ||3||
One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||
Selfishness evaporates like the morning fog, once you have connected with The Formless.

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo ḏīsai so sagal ṯūʼnhai pasri▫ā pāsār.
All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.
You will see The One in all. No exception.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram kāti▫ā sagal barahm bīcẖār. ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, now with the help of The One; I see The One in all.

 

[spnadmin]

Ishna ji

In dera culture the connection between baba/guru and sangat is one of dependence on a mortal being external to us; these cultures can be rife with competition and rivalry. A sense of mutual support and learning as equals is not a hallmark. Sikhi is or should be a different experience.

Struggling toward a response here on my end. I do think however some of your concerns are understandable. Sikhi is a way of living, not a doctrinal religion. There isn't a checklist coming from scripture against which one can contrast daily deeds and decide if it was a good Sikhi day, or a bad one. And so a big difference from dera/baba culture.

Now except in situations where the idea of Sacred Congregation refers specifically to the connection between "me" and "Satguruji, " I understand sacred congregation to mean those who have gone before me seeking a similar pathway to connection, seeing God in all and being a person of character. Without a checklist this is hard to do. Without babas in a dera culture moreover there is no one to say, "Bad job, try again." or "Good job, you can sit with me on the manji today and receive adulation from the sangat."

For Guru Nanak spiritual change happens within, and also within the "sants" who are your equals. The surprise is that they are also learning from you if they are indeed "sants" in the Nanak tradition. The creation of spirit is always a work in progress, never complete or whole because only the Satugur is pooran, complete and unbroken.

That is my understanding. I am not promoting this idea as "gospel according to Guru Nanak." Only the result of discoveries made in my own journey. I think of the connection between sanctuary of saints and the Guru working in concentric circles. There can be no contradiction because the shabad always says that the Guru works continually within, within you and within those who have gone before you. The sanctuary of saints is the place where we support that process together as sangat because it is so hard without a checklist, and we learn by example and by discussion, fall down, pick ourselves up and have another arm to lean on.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The experiences of those who have gone before us..trodding the Path and living life as Gurparsaad....the Bhagats, the Sants, the saadhs, the Gurmukhs, the Sheikhs and the GURUS....this is why the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji draws on all these multiples...and is NOT restricted to just the SIKH GURUS who wrote Gurbani....and this si where those who seek to TAKE OUT Bhagat ravidass Jis Gurbani and ISOLATE IT as "Exclusive" to ravidassis Community make a huge mistake..they are actually LIMITING THEMSELVES to a "bucket ful" instead of the Vast OCEAN !! This is why the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..is the SANT, the SAADH, the SHEIKH, the Bhagat, the GURU, the Gurmukh and the SAADH-SANGAT..the COMPLETE !!! the ONE and ONLY one we need to progress spiritually...

Posted in connection with Spnadmins remark as follows.."Now except in situations where the idea of Sacred Congregation refers specifically to the connection between "me" and "Satguruji, " I understand sacred congregation to mean those who have gone before me seeking a similar pathway to connection, seeing God in all and being a person of character. Without a checklist this is hard to do"........

 

[spnadmin]

OK ... I think now I am understanding the ball of confusion. It is hard to know what assumptions people are working with, so I may not really know. Correct me if I am not understanding your question Ishna ji. It struck me with the help of Gyani ji's words, that sometimes "sanctuary" might be understood as physical location.

The "sanctuary" is the Guru. Guru is the safe harbor, the sanctuary of those who have gone before. You I and the sants take sanctuary in Guruji. As in the expresson, one "takes sanctuary" or finds safety in a sacred place, that place is Guruji.

A sanctuary is a place of safety and support, but it is not in Gurbani a physical space like a dera. It is a place that you and I and those have gone before take shelter in, as a state of being or state of mind.

 

[gur_meet]

wjkk wjkf

In Gurbani the word 'Sant' is generally used for a person who can give guidance and direction to be taken on the path of Sikhi. The person being on the path can clear important points. Even where one reads a 'tika' of gurbani or an article or a book this amounts to acquisition of knowledge. During discussion also points are cleared .This knowledge is acquired when on is humble and open.For example if one is apt to show off in a discussion the learning points may go. A really knowledgeable person does not go about distributing gems . These are to be taken through an humble and open spirit. This is being 'Sant sarnee". This has limited purpose and the Sikh then moves on. For the Sikh there should be only "Shabad Guru's" sanctuary .

The Babas or one in a religious garb should not be considered automatically a Sant as per gurbani. If he or she is able to offer knowledge then it is good and should be taken and then move on.

Now let us see the meaning of following Tuks .

ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਮਾਤੇ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ ahaʼnkār māṯe vi▫āpi▫ā sansār.
The world is drunk, engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism.

ਪਉ ਸੰਤ ਸਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਿਟੈ ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
Pa▫o sanṯ sarṇī lāg cẖarṇī mitai ḏūkẖ anḏẖār. ||2||
Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||


In the world there lust, anger and egotism are wide spread. These are also the cause of suffering. A way out of the misery perpetuated by these is being shown. The gurbani guides one to seek a 'Sant' who would clarify the path . The darkness of knowledge gives way to light which is the path of Sikhi.

When we see the next pungtees the path of Sikhi is being Shown. Sikhi is to find God and to live with God.

The last two pungtees of the Shabad say :

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
Jo ḏīsai so sagal ṯūʼnhai pasri▫ā pāsār.
All that is seen is You, Lord, throughout the expanse.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥੯੫॥
Kaho Nānak gur bẖaram kāti▫ā sagal barahm bīcẖār. ||4||25||95||
Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my illusion through Bichar(contemplation) that all is Brahm(God). ||4||25||95||

Here i have changed the translation to more correct translation. This is a word of caution we should not take the translation to be literally true but compare and contemplate to reach at the proper translation and meaning with a faith that Shabad Guru being ang sang ever guides.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

View attachment 7176

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Here again SEVA of..."others" besides HAR or the CREATOR (Via Shabad Guru) is considered worthless..and waste of time...

 

[gur_meet]

wjkk wjkf
Shabad Guru and waheguruji are one and same. Shabad Guru is ever with us.

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gur Maerai Sang Sadhaa Hai Naalae ||
My Guru is always with me, near at hand.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jiji 394
In Sikhi there is at all no need to go to any Baba or the so called saint when there is direct access to the Shabad Guru. Sikhi is communion with the Shabad Guru in the form of Gurbani and Communion with Shabad Guru within. When there is need a person comes in life and shares the wisdom - a saintly advice. In fact this can come through written words as well.

I in my path have been inspired and got direction through writings of Bhai Sahib Veer Singh ji , Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji , Bhai Sahib Raghubir Singh ji and many other Gursikhs during lectures etc.These have all been 'Sant' contacts as per gurbani.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Sanctuary of the Saints

Is the Dera of Dhun


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Sa9gOAIHU1U

 

[SaintSoldier1699]

Ishna Ji,

I think we are unfortunate to be learning about Sikhi in a time when "Sants" have become the norm and number in thousands and have networked into a Global phenomena with hordes of devotees flocking to them and marketing for them willingly with using part references to Sukhmani bani (and others) as their backing.

Given there were no "Titled" Sant's pre 1900, only Bhai's or Baba ji's (as a form of elder respect only) it was easier to understand that a Sant was someone of the qualities that Guru ji states in Gurbani that make a true Sikh - so emphasis was more on the actions, rehat daily practice to know who was a truly pious person.

The word Sant was never meant to be a prefix - because you were never mean't to have a "pre" assumption that so and so are very holy. Which now we have!

Now we have been brainwashed to a degree if someone mentions "Sant" or we read the word, we picture someone in a white turban, white chola, with chimtas and lots of people around them having "sangat" and appearing to be spotless and living the true Sikhi lifestyle. Thus, a pre-determined assumption not actually going in with a blank canvas to really comprehend if these people are for real or fakes.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

This is a surprisingly new bravo baba/sant:
http://answers.sikhnet.com/question/1706/denouncement-of-being-amritdhari

 

[spnadmin]

Kanwaljit Singh ji

That is a tragic essay. A young person caught in a net. Even his parents cannot find the will or desire to unsnare him. And, the message sent out on the Internet comes from a place where nothing is true or correct. The "amritdhari" way of life pictured there is the concoction of a baba, who passes the rites of initiation as a baba, all distorted, in order to maintain his position as baba. Neither amrit nor Sikhi are what this baba was pushing for. Really a tragedy of a life. I hope this person is able to pull free without emotional scars.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Yes you take all the online postings with a grain of salt. But marriage and monthly payments, that too in pounds no less!

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

god is everywhere, in and out of everything including babas and deras. no point talking about god, if we cannot see him in everything. thanks it s my oppinion

 

[chazSingh]

And GURU ARJUN ji also states quite clearly in Sukhmani Sahib...MANUKH KI TEAK BIRTHEE JAAN....Dependance on a HUMAN is WORTHLESS !! Now lets see which Baba and whiuch DERA the SANT is NOT a HUMAN ??..is NOT a MANUKH...with HUMAN FAILINGS...??? THATS the REAL"SANT" and FITS 100% the Sukhmani DESCRIPTION...SANT Brahmgyani etc..

While i agree with most of this, it is not the human body that one is looking at if they are blessed to cross paths with a highly spiritual gurmuch, brahmgiani, sant etc. It is the fully manifest light of god that exists within their Hirda.

deletion of single tuk.

Full Shabad:
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3995

We shouldnt wonder around looking for a Sant, or true pure khalsa gurmukh...we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is asking us to do good deeds, contemplte his naam in the ambroisial hours etc etc.

If we are to meet with a true puran gurmukh, sant, baba, khalsa then it will happen as per destiny and is not under our control.

All is Him in his wondrous play.

 

[findingmyway]

Moderation Note:
Please use full shabads and not single tuks as per SPN terms of service. Thanks