SILENT MAJORITY ON SPN FORUM
SPN Forum has 8116 members to date but it is only 15-20 members taking part in any debate, others are silent observers with out any personal opinion/suggestion/comment, which comes to 0.18% involvement. This is also true in any democratic process that the silent majority sits quietly in the religious and political election process all over the world.
Purpose of the debate on SPN forum is to find amicable solutions to the changing conditions in the world as well as to understand AGGS and to follow Its teachings. With the passage of time change seems to be on the horizon perpetuated by myths created by interested individuals or scientific discoveries or religious turmoil/agenda/fears/ insecurity etc. God is the only one which does not change as described by Guru Nanak in Japji and Guru Amardas in Raag Asa;
ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥
Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug ėko vės.
The Primal and Pure One, is without beginning or end, and had been the same throughout all the ages. -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 6-17
ਤੂੰ ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਏਕੋ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn jug jug ėko saḏā saḏā ṯūʼn ėko jī ṯūʼn nihcẖal karṯā so­ī.
Age after age, You are the One. Forever and ever, You are the One. You never change, O Creator Lord. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 11-12
Change is inevitable, which is a fact of life. According to Guru Nanak each age has changed in certain respects as he describes in Raag Asa;
ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਵਟਾਈਅਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥
Jug jug fėr vatā­ī­ah gi­ānī bujẖeh ṯāhi.
In age after age they change; the spiritually wise understand this.
The most important part of the body is the conscience, which is the charioteer of the body.
During the four age’s charioteer have changed hands but this secret is understood only by few learned people.
During Satyug, contentment was the chariot of the body and Dharam the charioteer, when all were contented and religious.
During the Treta Yug, the chariot was celibacy and enlightenment was the charioteer so people were celibate and brave.
During Duapur Yug, penance was the chariot and Truth was the charioteer, so people were speaking truth and engaged in penance.
During the present age Kaljug, the chariot is of burning worldly desires, and speaking untruth is the charioteer. It is through meditation on the True Name that one could get salvation.
SatYug is considered the prime age of these four ages as pronounced by Shyam Ved and Setumber, Hansa incarnation of God, when people spoke the Truth.
During Treta Rig Veda says that the God pervades in full measure in all beings and every where, and Its Name was considered the main force by gods.
During Duapur Yug, Yujar Veda says that Krishna had seduced Chanderavali, who brought the tree “Parjapat” from god Indra’s garden for the milk maid Satyabhamur and the enjoyed life at Vinderaban from across the river.
During KalYug, Ved Athraban is in vogue, when people stopped remembering God’s Name. Here O’Nanak! The person, who considers himself low and humble, could attain salvation, while worshiping the God at his home even.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470
We have a choice to fight against the current or accept and go with the flow; to fight it or embrace it. Change must be faced with an open mind and positive attitude. There is a general and natural reluctance to change our understanding of the world maturely, constructively, and realistically.
It was thought that only the laws of nature like fundamental quantities such as the strength of gravity, the speed of light in a vacuum or the charge on the electron are all constant. The fine-structure constant, α, is a measure of the strength of the electromagnetic interaction, and it quantifies the strength with which electrons bind within atoms and molecules. The fine-structure constant is of particular interest because it is a dimensionless number. There are theoretical reasons why α and other dimensionless constants might vary with time. This means that the actual size of the universe is about 40 billion light-years and rising from the time of big bang 13.5 billion light-years. Confirmation that α is changing would have profound implications for physics. May be a Physicist member could comment on this?
The universe is in constant activity. It is also true that this Universe has a beginning and an end, called dissolution. Whether it is a play of cosmic physical forces or a God, had not been answered, either by philosophers or scientists, but Guru Nanak in Raag Asa & Maru and other Gurus have expressed similarly that God is the creator and finally destroyer of Its creation;
ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਫੁਨਿਗੋਈ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
Jin sir sājī ṯin fun go­ī Ŧis bin ḏūjā avar na ko­ī..
That, who created the Universe, shall ultimately destroy it. Without Lord, there is no other at all.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa and Maru, AGGS, Page, 355-9 & 1020-11
It may be the proper vigor of Nature and might have spontaneity resulting from the powers inherent in the eternal, Psychophysical power. There is no absolute proof for the existence of God, as the evidence just does not exist. It starts with faith. Faith is a personal matter. If there is a proof, then there is no need of any faith. Though there are enough clues about God, but each individual has to decide for himself though their spiritual experience if any?
So far, there is absolutely no certain way to prove or disapprove that God set the whole creation in motion by adopting Universal Eternal Laws of Nature. We have never understood Nature so well or been able to harness that energy, and yet we have never been so destructive of nature for our own selfish uses except for the latest global warming, which may be the cause of recent weather disturbances. At the same time, every one admits the existence of a Psychophysical energy as the individual or Universal experience.
Now here comes the silent majority in any faith, which does not want to come out of their cocoon and are sitting with out questioning, debating or even purposing any thing. May be they are standing on side lines, watching that one will choose right over wrong or vice versa.
IMHO no one in the debates on this forum has shown any disrespect to our God/Gurus/AGGS in any form. No one is forcing any ideas on others. It is individual’s own priority or decision or understanding about the teachings incorporated in AGGS. No one can change any body. It is the individual who has to change himself depending upon his choice, faith, attitude, acceptance, willingness, and understanding.
The other interesting finding in the world is that a child born has to follow the religion of the parents. The child has no option or choice. It will be interesting to give a chance to the child as he/she grows up to study all the religions and then pick up, what ever he/she likes.
Miserable men live in hopes; mighty men face facts and reconcile them all in the Truth of God, and achieve personal growth through virtuous living with a positive attitude and clear understanding.
I am a student of Truth, trying honestly and sincerely to understand it. Truth/Naam is the name of God in Sikh thought and is the foundation stone of the philosophy incorporated in AGGS and the faith revolves around it. God/Truth/Naam is formless;
ਬੋਲੈ ਭਰਥਰਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ॥ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥
Bolai bẖarthar saṯ sarūp. Param ṯanṯ meh rėkẖ na rūp.
Says Bhart'har (ਗੋਰਖ ਦਾ ਚੇਲਾ, ਇਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆ) God is the embodiment of Truth; the supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 953-3
ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
Nā­o ṯėrā nirankār hai nā­ė la­i­ai narak na jā­ī­ai.
Your Name is Formless; chanting Your Name, one does not to go to hell.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-15
ਕਰਮਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥
Karam Kartoot Bayl Bistharee Ram Naam Fal Hoo-aa, Tis Roop Na Raykh Anaahad Vaajai Sabd Niranjan Kee-aa.
The vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears the fruit of the God's Name. The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Sabd, the Immaculate Akal Purkh is revealed. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page 351-
ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
Baran cẖihan nāhī mukẖ na māsārā.
Akal Purkh has no color, no sign, no mouth and no beard -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-10
ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥
Chakar Chihan Ur Baran Jaat Ur Paat Nehan Jeh, Roop Rung Ur Rekh Bhekh Kou Keh Na Sakat Keh.
Akal Purkh is without mark or sign, without caste or line, without color or form, and without any distinctive norm. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Jaap Sahib.
Despite the above references we want to have a form.
Let us hope that silent majority comes out of their cocoon and honor us with their comments, recommendations and thoughts. Please share with your fresh thoughts and opinions and spiritual or other experiences of life.
Please no personal attacks, we can always agree to disagree in a civil academic discussion with maturity in a constructive and creative way.
Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, Mi 48895
SPN Forum has 8116 members to date but it is only 15-20 members taking part in any debate, others are silent observers with out any personal opinion/suggestion/comment, which comes to 0.18% involvement. This is also true in any democratic process that the silent majority sits quietly in the religious and political election process all over the world.
Purpose of the debate on SPN forum is to find amicable solutions to the changing conditions in the world as well as to understand AGGS and to follow Its teachings. With the passage of time change seems to be on the horizon perpetuated by myths created by interested individuals or scientific discoveries or religious turmoil/agenda/fears/ insecurity etc. God is the only one which does not change as described by Guru Nanak in Japji and Guru Amardas in Raag Asa;
ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥
Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug ėko vės.
The Primal and Pure One, is without beginning or end, and had been the same throughout all the ages. -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 6-17
ਤੂੰ ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਏਕੋ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥
Ŧūʼn jug jug ėko saḏā saḏā ṯūʼn ėko jī ṯūʼn nihcẖal karṯā so­ī.
Age after age, You are the One. Forever and ever, You are the One. You never change, O Creator Lord. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 11-12
Change is inevitable, which is a fact of life. According to Guru Nanak each age has changed in certain respects as he describes in Raag Asa;
ਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਵਟਾਈਅਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥
Jug jug fėr vatā­ī­ah gi­ānī bujẖeh ṯāhi.
In age after age they change; the spiritually wise understand this.
The most important part of the body is the conscience, which is the charioteer of the body.
During the four age’s charioteer have changed hands but this secret is understood only by few learned people.
During Satyug, contentment was the chariot of the body and Dharam the charioteer, when all were contented and religious.
During the Treta Yug, the chariot was celibacy and enlightenment was the charioteer so people were celibate and brave.
During Duapur Yug, penance was the chariot and Truth was the charioteer, so people were speaking truth and engaged in penance.
During the present age Kaljug, the chariot is of burning worldly desires, and speaking untruth is the charioteer. It is through meditation on the True Name that one could get salvation.
SatYug is considered the prime age of these four ages as pronounced by Shyam Ved and Setumber, Hansa incarnation of God, when people spoke the Truth.
During Treta Rig Veda says that the God pervades in full measure in all beings and every where, and Its Name was considered the main force by gods.
During Duapur Yug, Yujar Veda says that Krishna had seduced Chanderavali, who brought the tree “Parjapat” from god Indra’s garden for the milk maid Satyabhamur and the enjoyed life at Vinderaban from across the river.
During KalYug, Ved Athraban is in vogue, when people stopped remembering God’s Name. Here O’Nanak! The person, who considers himself low and humble, could attain salvation, while worshiping the God at his home even.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470
We have a choice to fight against the current or accept and go with the flow; to fight it or embrace it. Change must be faced with an open mind and positive attitude. There is a general and natural reluctance to change our understanding of the world maturely, constructively, and realistically.
It was thought that only the laws of nature like fundamental quantities such as the strength of gravity, the speed of light in a vacuum or the charge on the electron are all constant. The fine-structure constant, α, is a measure of the strength of the electromagnetic interaction, and it quantifies the strength with which electrons bind within atoms and molecules. The fine-structure constant is of particular interest because it is a dimensionless number. There are theoretical reasons why α and other dimensionless constants might vary with time. This means that the actual size of the universe is about 40 billion light-years and rising from the time of big bang 13.5 billion light-years. Confirmation that α is changing would have profound implications for physics. May be a Physicist member could comment on this?
The universe is in constant activity. It is also true that this Universe has a beginning and an end, called dissolution. Whether it is a play of cosmic physical forces or a God, had not been answered, either by philosophers or scientists, but Guru Nanak in Raag Asa & Maru and other Gurus have expressed similarly that God is the creator and finally destroyer of Its creation;
ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਫੁਨਿਗੋਈ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
Jin sir sājī ṯin fun go­ī Ŧis bin ḏūjā avar na ko­ī..
That, who created the Universe, shall ultimately destroy it. Without Lord, there is no other at all.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa and Maru, AGGS, Page, 355-9 & 1020-11
It may be the proper vigor of Nature and might have spontaneity resulting from the powers inherent in the eternal, Psychophysical power. There is no absolute proof for the existence of God, as the evidence just does not exist. It starts with faith. Faith is a personal matter. If there is a proof, then there is no need of any faith. Though there are enough clues about God, but each individual has to decide for himself though their spiritual experience if any?
So far, there is absolutely no certain way to prove or disapprove that God set the whole creation in motion by adopting Universal Eternal Laws of Nature. We have never understood Nature so well or been able to harness that energy, and yet we have never been so destructive of nature for our own selfish uses except for the latest global warming, which may be the cause of recent weather disturbances. At the same time, every one admits the existence of a Psychophysical energy as the individual or Universal experience.
Now here comes the silent majority in any faith, which does not want to come out of their cocoon and are sitting with out questioning, debating or even purposing any thing. May be they are standing on side lines, watching that one will choose right over wrong or vice versa.
IMHO no one in the debates on this forum has shown any disrespect to our God/Gurus/AGGS in any form. No one is forcing any ideas on others. It is individual’s own priority or decision or understanding about the teachings incorporated in AGGS. No one can change any body. It is the individual who has to change himself depending upon his choice, faith, attitude, acceptance, willingness, and understanding.
The other interesting finding in the world is that a child born has to follow the religion of the parents. The child has no option or choice. It will be interesting to give a chance to the child as he/she grows up to study all the religions and then pick up, what ever he/she likes.
Miserable men live in hopes; mighty men face facts and reconcile them all in the Truth of God, and achieve personal growth through virtuous living with a positive attitude and clear understanding.
I am a student of Truth, trying honestly and sincerely to understand it. Truth/Naam is the name of God in Sikh thought and is the foundation stone of the philosophy incorporated in AGGS and the faith revolves around it. God/Truth/Naam is formless;
ਬੋਲੈ ਭਰਥਰਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ॥ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥
Bolai bẖarthar saṯ sarūp. Param ṯanṯ meh rėkẖ na rūp.
Says Bhart'har (ਗੋਰਖ ਦਾ ਚੇਲਾ, ਇਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਿਆ) God is the embodiment of Truth; the supreme essence of reality has no shape or form. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 953-3
ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
Nā­o ṯėrā nirankār hai nā­ė la­i­ai narak na jā­ī­ai.
Your Name is Formless; chanting Your Name, one does not to go to hell.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-15
ਕਰਮਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥
Karam Kartoot Bayl Bistharee Ram Naam Fal Hoo-aa, Tis Roop Na Raykh Anaahad Vaajai Sabd Niranjan Kee-aa.
The vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears the fruit of the God's Name. The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Sabd, the Immaculate Akal Purkh is revealed. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page 351-
ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
Baran cẖihan nāhī mukẖ na māsārā.
Akal Purkh has no color, no sign, no mouth and no beard -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 746-10
ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥
Chakar Chihan Ur Baran Jaat Ur Paat Nehan Jeh, Roop Rung Ur Rekh Bhekh Kou Keh Na Sakat Keh.
Akal Purkh is without mark or sign, without caste or line, without color or form, and without any distinctive norm. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Jaap Sahib.
Despite the above references we want to have a form.
Let us hope that silent majority comes out of their cocoon and honor us with their comments, recommendations and thoughts. Please share with your fresh thoughts and opinions and spiritual or other experiences of life.
Please no personal attacks, we can always agree to disagree in a civil academic discussion with maturity in a constructive and creative way.
Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, Mi 48895
