The Concept Of Jooth/Juth?

[TigerStyleZ]

WJKK WJKF ,

I was wondering what the Concept of 'Jooth or Juth' is all about.. Can please someone explain it to me?
Example: Amritdharis don´t eat from others, why is this so ? What were our Gurus thinking about it ? When we eat/take food from others? Why we can´t eat from others? Yes, I know there is risk of poisoning etc.. but if you know the other person from childhood?
I mean this is kind like Brahaaman's who treat lower caste as 'untouchables'.

I mean, there are Sakhis about Guru Nanak Dev ji and other Gurus who ate from other persons.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Sorry. I got tangled up in moving this thread to the wrong existing thread. I am hoping to get right this time around.

This thread covers the idea of jooth in depth. It is not a fundamental of Sikhi. Period.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/35196-concept-of-jhoot-re-jootha-food-4.html

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

TigherStyle ji

Jhoot refers to the idea that armitdhari may not eat leftover food, food prepared by non-amritdhari or from plates shared with non-amritdhari. This can extend to refusing to attend parties that are catered. IMHO it is not dissimilar from food restrictions of extreme wings in orthodox Judaism. Among Jews, the concern is that their food be completely kosher, or "pure."

In Sikhism There are only 4 kurehits. A restriction on leftover food or food preparation is not included. Forbidding jewelry is another example. The person seeking baptism must not wear jewelry at the ceremony of amrit sanchar. All Sikhs should avoid piercings or jewelry where piercing is involved. There is no other restriction against, however, many will say NO JEWELRY. Instead of seeing this as a personal decision. Let me quote from Gyani ji

SRM mentions FOUR BAJJAR KUREHITS...
1. dishonouring the Kesh - cutting, trimming removal colouring etc etc.
2. Consume Halal meat
3. Consume drugs tobacco etc
4. Cohabitation with someone not ones spouse.(adultery).

ONLY these are punishable. Punishment is appear beofore the Panj during an Amrit Sanchaar...tell them the kurehit and reasons if any and they will decide the punishment- most common is paath/sewa in a Gurdwara etc. THEN the kurehiti will be readmitted via amrit sanchaar once more.

These are at LOCAL LEVEL. There is NO OTHER PUNISHMENTS or any other avenues to go through. NO other kurehits either.

People like to add for a variety of reasons. An example would be changing the restriction against eating halal to completely avoiding meet. Over time these additions become hard-wired.

For amritdhari, there are additional "disciplines."

Here is the discipline to be followed by a baptized Sikh according to Sikh Rehat Maryada. No mention of jooth.

p. After this, one from amongst the five beloved ones should explain to the initiates the discipline of the order : * Today you are reborn in the true Guru's household, ending the cycle of migration, and joined the Khalsa Panth (order). *Your spiritual father is now Guru Gobind Singh and spiritual mother, Mata Sahib Kaur. *Your place of birth is Kesgarh Sahib and your native place is Anandpur Sahib. You, being the sons of one father, are, inter-se yourselves and other baptised Sikhs, spiritual brothers. You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour.

You are supposed to know Gurmukhi (Punjabi alphabet). (If you do not, you must learn it). And recite, or listen in to the recitation of, the under mentioned scriptural compositions, the daily repetition of which is ordained, every day 1) The Japuji Sahib, (2) The Jaap Sahib, (3) The Ten Sawayyas (Quartrains), beginning "sarawag sudh", (4) The Sodar Rahiras and the Sohila. Besides, you should read from or listen in to the recitation from the Guru Granth Sahib . Have, on your person, all the time, the five K's :

I. The Keshas (unshorn hair),
II. The Kirpan {sheathed sword} (The length of the sword to be worn is not prescribed.,
III. The Kachhehra (The Kachhehra (drawers like garment) may be made from any cloth, but its legs should not reach down to below the shins.),
IV. The Kanga (comb),
V. The Karha {steel bracelet} (The Karha should be of pure steel.)


The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
4. Using tobacco.

In the event of the commission of any of these transgressions, the transgressor must get baptised again. If a transgression is committed unintentionally and unknowingly, the transgressor shall not be liable to punishment. You must not associate with a Sikh who had uncut hair earlier and has cut it or a Sikh who smokes. You must ever be ready for the service of the Panth and of the Gurdwaras (Sikh places of worship). You must tender one tenth (Daswand) of your earnings to the Guru.

In short, you must act the Guru's way in all spheres of activity.

You must remain fully aligned to the Khalsa brotherhood in accordance with the principles of the Khalsa faith. If you commit transgression of the Khalsa discipline, you must present yourself before the congregation and beg pardon, accepting whatever punishment is awarded. You must also resolve to remain watchful against defaults in the future.

The concept of jooth is a serious matter for some sects, but not all Sikhs. However you can see it is not part of the rehat. There are cultural reasons for it.

 

[TigerStyleZ]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Thank you SPNAdmin ji,

I used the Searchengine , but didnt find any helpful thing. I know the Rehit Maryada , and that there is nothing written in it, but the Rehat Marayada of Akaal Takht was put together by high and learned SIkh Scholars and authorities - and people who believe in this jooth concept bring that into debatation. Then they start telling that Gurus themselves never ate Jooth... whereas everything on this world is jooth... Anyway they start off with some unlogical points.. I sometimes ask myself why they themselfs dont start laughing at what they said..

I mean we all drink fro the same Water - I dont understand this ILLlogical concept.. I want a clearifying post what this Jooth concept is all about - Why people stilll believe in it altough it is very unlogical.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Thank you SPNAdmin ji,

I used the Searchengine , but didnt find any helpful thing. I know the Rehit Maryada , and that there is nothing written in it, but the Rehat Marayada of Akaal Takht was put together by high and learned SIkh Scholars and authorities - and people who believe in this jooth concept bring that into debatation. Then they start telling that Gurus themselves never ate Jooth... whereas everything on this world is jooth... Anyway they start off with some unlogical points.. I sometimes ask myself why they themselfs dont start laughing at what they said..

I mean we all drink fro the same Water - I dont understand this ILLlogical concept.. I want a clearifying post what this Jooth concept is all about - Why people stilll believe in it altough it is very unlogical.

A few thoughts on my end TigerStyleZji

One issue:

"Rehat Maryada of Akal Takht was put together by ...Sikh Scholars and authorities - and people who believe in this jooth concept bring that into deliberation." Many who follow the concept of "jooth" follow their own maryadas. An example would be AKJ which has its own maryada that also requires women to wear turbans and cook only in steel pots.

Another issue:

Some Sikhs who know the SRM hear of "jooth" and decide to add it to their own discipline. It can become a family or local custom. After time it is accepted as a fact.

"Jooth " is about keeping food spiritually pure. Remember that among brahmins a lower caste person could not even enter the courtyard surrounding the kitchen and outdoor areas where cooking took place. An entire area would need to be purified and the low caste person would be severely punished. These are ideas more than 1,000 years old. How easy is it to convince someone that "jooth" is not about purity but about status?

Final thought:

I posted a link to a longer thread on this issue. The thread is very clear. Jooth is illogical, does not follow from the SRM and raises amritdharis to the status of brahmins within Sikhism. If you cannot find a clear statement on the Internet then the reason must be that posters are either themselves unclear or the forum/web site has its own doctrines which hold that "jooth" is required.

Personally I cannot remember reading about 'jooth" in any of the scholarly literature.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Here is what I am talking about. This web site gives a green light to belief in "jooth" and proceeds to explain why it is a reasonable idea. Good and bad karmas are passed by cooking to the food we eat.

Food prepared by non-devotees, who don't worship Vaheguru, commit blatant sins, is avoided by Gursikhs and this avoidance of food prepared by non-devotees and partaking food prepared by Gursikhs is called Dietary Bibek in Sikhi.

When we analyse the Saakhi of Malik Bhago and Bhai Laalo, we clearly see that the affect of one’s good or bad Karma passes on to the food one cooks or even buys.

In Malik Bhago’s case, the food may not have been touched directly by him but still his bad Karma got transferred to his food and Guru Sahib demonstrated to the world by squeezing blood out of his Roti. This proves that even if certain food is not directly touched by a person, it can still be Jootha i.e. if dishonest earnings are used to buy ingredients for food, such food too is Jootha, as far as Gursikhs are concerned.

It is perfect example of a) the continuation of an ancient brahmin belief and b) it comes from the separate rehat of AKJ. From this link http://www.gurmatbibek.com/contents.php?id=895

 

[Luckysingh]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

I actually asked a very similar question not so long ago about 'bibek rehat'

There is a thread about this that is worth looking at, and I'm pretty sure it will help answer your question.
Our Gyanji kindly helped explain and answer my query very well in that thread and now I actually do understand the logic and reasoning behind it, thanks to Gyanji's influence!

Once you differentiate between sikh discipline and brahmin mania then it becomes a little clear!
Check the thread below-

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/39618-bibek-rehit.html

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Actually Luckysingh ji

I liked your reply. It sums things up re: bibek rehat

I have come across some that are strict believers in this and I did respect them for that previously. However, I question it now and don't feel that it is pure gurmat because it borders with haumai and judging in my opinion.

 

[TigerStyleZ]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Thank you for all the answers - after readins several posts and articles - the Concept was clarified. Hah, I used wrong keywords to find this thread I guess , I wrote Jooth instead of Jhooth, and 'Bibek Rehat' was a missing Keyword as well. So thank you for all this quotations and links.

It is like I thought a continued Brahmin practice disguised as Jooth in Sikhi...
I mean , they eat food from their mothers...Isnt that Jooth as well.. Anyway I don´t understand why they themselves don´t see the falseness behind this Concept? Is it really just the manifestation or the corporate compilance destroying of Sikhi?

I personally would eat from my friend - whom I know from childhood. Because if we would know each other for so long ,I wouldnt care if he is black or any other thing. (Skincolour in this Case of Jooth will be a an issue as well - people would say a DOUBLe NO NO , I bet!)



EDIT:
Ok, I came across a Post of Ambarsaria

NinduP ji your phoenetics is wrong in what you are asking for if it helps,

• Jhoot or Jhooth
  • Lie, Telling lies
• Jooth
  • Leftover of food eaten by others

In Sikh Rehat Maryada the following is stated,



T) T) qnKwhIey ieh hn:-

• Subject to congregation penalty

2. by-AMimRqIey jW piqq dw jUTw Kwx vwlw[

• Eating food left over by non-Baptized Sikh or one who violates the four kurehaytes "
  

Sat Sri Akal.

I am confused now, why he quoted that it iswritten in the rehit marayada - I never saw that line ?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

I am confused now, why he quoted that it iswritten in the rehit marayada - I never saw that line ?

This is the exact line: " One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs " This is the entire section. Technically many things listed here lead to chastisement:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
4. Using tobacco.

In the event of the commission of any of these transgressions, the transgressor must get baptised again. If a transgression is committed unintentionally and unknowingly, the transgressor shall not be liable to punishment. You must not associate with a Sikh who had uncut hair earlier and has cut it or a Sikh who smokes. You must ever be ready for the service of the Panth and of the Gurdwaras (Sikh places of worship). You must tender one tenth (Daswand) of your earnings to the Guru.
In short, you must act the Guru's way in all spheres of activity.
You must remain fully aligned to the Khalsa brotherhood in accordance with the principles of the Khalsa faith. If you commit transgression of the Khalsa discipline, you must present yourself before the congregation and beg pardon, accepting whatever punishment is awarded. You must also resolve to remain watchful against defaults in the future.

q. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:

1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants

2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs;

3. One who dyes his beard;

4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward;

5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.);

6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way;

7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.

It is at the very end of SRM, Section 6, Chapter xiii.

Question: Does this restriction qualify as jooth? Is it the proper definition of jooth? Or are we once again talking about passing good and bad karmas through the food we eat? In Gurmatbibek that seems to be the key ingredient of jooth...passing bad karmas because of an impure cook. Not a dirty cook, but a cook with bad karmas to pass along. Can we be certain that amritdhari are so spiritually pure that none will pass bad karmas to the rest of us? :wink:

 

[Ishna]

I don't know about anyone else but things seem to pop into and out of the online SRM on a regular basis... either that or it's just my crazy brain.


Thanks Adminji, you beat me to it! Is the keyword 'left-overs'...? You can eat food cooked by a non-Sikh, but just don't eat their left-overs!! haha

 

[spnadmin]

The way it is worded an amritdhari can also eat left-overs of a non-Sikh. It says left-over food of an unbaptized Sikh or fallen Sikh. Non Sikhs are OK.

To tell the truth Ishna ji This is a real mess. I found the line in only 1 of 5 versions of the SRM that I checked. That was the one posted on the SGPC website. The finding is itself ironic insofar as the SGPC recently participated in a Hindu festival of Kumbh Mela. '

The irony piles up. A chastisement is called for when an amritdhari associates with a former amritdhari who has cut his/her hair. That would mean that any amritdhari parent must shun a child, formerly amritdhari, who has cut his/her hair... or undergo chastisement.

But let's go back to the sakkhi of Guru Nanak squeezing blood out of a roti.

When we analyse the Saakhi of Malik Bhago and Bhai Laalo, we clearly see that the affect of one’s good or bad Karma passes on to the food one cooks or even buys.

In Malik Bhago’s case, the food may not have been touched directly by him but still his bad Karma got transferred to his food and Guru Sahib demonstrated to the world by squeezing blood out of his Roti. This proves that even if certain food is not directly touched by a person, it can still be Jootha i.e. if dishonest earnings are used to buy ingredients for food, such food too is Jootha, as far as Gursikhs are concerned.

Is the lesson about bad karmas being transferred? I know that I never will and never have eaten knowingly at a restaurant operated by the Mafia, or acting as a mob front organization. And not because I may get sick. These characters are mixed up with prostitution, racketeering, extortion, arson, money laundering, drug peddling, gun running, gambling, and more. Yes.. there is a lot of "uncleaness" there, and I don't want to get close to it or eat their food or pay money for the privilege. Their profits are gained from "blood." Honestly I believe that is the meaning of the sakkhi. Guru Nanak is not "squeezing blood" rather he is showing how only "blood" can be found in the food provided by a crook. It is food made of crime and suffering.

The question of jooth then remains unresolved in the realm of Sikh orthodoxy, but I know amritdhari who eat the food of non Sikhs, and unbaptized Sikhs, and participate in catered luncheons and dinners. Cooking in steel pots and eating from steel plates is not required. Having only amritdhari to cook your food is not part of this. Frankly I doubt they would pick up a half-eaten sandwich left lying around by anyone, baptized or not.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Perhaps this may help..
The Institution of Khandey batte DEE PAHUL is an INITIATION CEREMONY to ADMIT one into the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD.
One of the TABOOS this ceremony seeks to BREAK is one of CASTE..high vs Low...Brahmin vs Shudra...for THOUSANDS of YEARS a shudra couldnt go within a mile of a Brahmins house/esp his kitchen...its THAT BAD !!
So in the Ceremony...ALL sit together...DRINK from the SAME BOWL of "amrit"...eat from the SAME Bowl of Karrah parshaad...this is in order to BREAK THE TABOO of low/high/higher/better/whatever....ALL ARE EQUALS BEFORE THE PANJ and SGGS. Any and all "kurehiteyeahs..law breakers..have to stand up and CONFESS and be suitably "punished". So no one..rich or king or emperor can ESCAPE via his position/religious or worldly.
AFTER this ceremony all the newly admitted are advised to discard all previous practises and adopt the amritdharee ones...and hence the SRM line. The Khandey batteh dee pahul creates a NEW SOCIAL ORDER..which follows its LAWS set out in SRM.

2. SECOND taboo which this CEREMONY seeks to BREAK..is "EATING LEFT OVERS..for SPIRITUAL PURIFICATION"....what many DONT KNOW is that in idnian religious tradition its much sought after to "EAT LEFT OVERS" of holy men..sadhus..Gurus..saints whatever...many human Gurus actually SPIT into the FOOD to be served to devotees to "PURIFY IT"...gross but TRUE. Many SIKHS actually RUSH to eat the Left overs of Rapists like Manna Phova !! Gross but TRUE never the less !!! IN Malaysia a politicla big Wig who also invited a few "honourable Sikhs" to attend the viist of a Holy SWAMI form Chennai to his home...actually passed around the Plate of elft overs of the Swami at the Dinner table....I was one of the 3 sikhs who got up and left...remaining 4 including a BABA JI type stayed and ate the JOOTH of the Swami in order to not offend the Swamis Malaysian political minister !! THIS is the TYPE OF SITUATION the line in SRM seeks to PREVENT....its a catch 22 situation..HOW does ONE SECURE the INDEPENDENCE OF MIND of a KHALSA....without getting the "horns" locked with those who cry FOUL....like in "How dare a khalsa say he cant eat this food..am I a leper or what ??..how do we resolve this..its a reality...eat it and be damned..dont eat and be damned..????

Lets have the posts NOW...

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Gyani jiThose are two good points.

This is all the SRM says (if you find the right copy that is) A baptized Sikh is liable for chastisement if One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs. Easy enough at face value.

That is not such a big deal. The problem is it gets stormed up into all kinds of prohibitions and rules. In the end it does make a brahmin of an amritdhari. That happens betwixt and between Sikhs at gurdwara or in groups at home, at school. "Well better not eat at so-and-so's house/party because of the karmas, because of the pots, because it might be left over, because it may be prepared by a fallen Sikh." Also, "Skip langar at that gurdwara because it is prepared by a sehajdhari!" So instead of eating/drinking together as one brotherhood of equals, the exact opposite thing happens. Some are clean and some are unclean. And keep the food of the dalit/unbaptized away from me and mine.

The common sense solution is something most of the rest of the world already suspects. Don't eat left-overs of anyone you don't know, preferably eat only left-overs from your own refrigerator. I am glad you walked out of the swami celebration after sussing out the hors d'oeuvres. That was disgusting.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

and just see the "torment" Britons etc are going thru when Tesco admitted feeding them Horsemeat from Romanian slaughterhouses (totally unhygienic ??) instead of beef ?? isnt that the same as "eating" a swamis left overs to prove my spirituality ?? ha ha i dont suppose anyone can get it right...Guru ji had something in mind thats alltogether different form what some AKJ types have in mind...Day vs Night...horsemeat vs beef..?? isnt a horse also a mammal..like the pig..the lamb..the cow..the camel..whatever..so much mind searching..tormenting..all for what ?? The 1429 pages of SGGS say something 360 degrees different !!! What you eta may be bad/good for PHYSICAL BODY..BUt the Mind.mann/soul is NOT affected by diet food spirtuality is immune to this..and YES FOOD/DIETS etc is one powerful MIND CONTROL PSYCHOLOGY many millineums:icecreammunda: old...

 

[Ishna]

You don't have to worry about the left-overs of this little unbaptised Sikh.. I never LEAVE any left-overs hahahaha om-nom-nom-nom :interestedkudi: :icecreamkaur::icecreamkudi: :sippingcoffee:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The dogmas imposed by AKJ, Taksalis and others have made this beautiful life of pragmatism into the cesspool of Brahamnism. With these practices of jooth and such, they have turned themselves into the worst Brahmins who practice Apartheid in the name of Sikhi shamelessly.

Such is in the heart and it can only be obtained by using the only Tide- The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Tejwant Singh

PS: Horse meat is not bad. It is served in some chic restaurants in Las Vegas. I bought some meat Lasagna from Fresh N Easy (Tesco's American daughter). I have no idea how much horse meat it had.

 

[Hardip Singh]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

Here is what I am talking about. This web site gives a green light to belief in "jooth" and proceeds to explain why it is a reasonable idea. Good and bad karmas are passed by cooking to the food we eat.



It is perfect example of a) the continuation of an ancient brahmin belief and b) it comes from the separate rehat of AKJ. From this link http://www.gurmatbibek.com/contents.php?id=895

This is Bibek and not Jhooth as being dicussed.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

It comes from a web page entitled Jhoot. I did not title the web page. Very much connected to the discussion of jooth. The Gurmatbibek folks titled it that way.

Beg to differ with you because Jooth and dietary bibek are equated by some members of the panth. And that is why it is difficult to get a clear reading on exactly what jooht is.


Title and first part of the article:

What is Jooth?

There is no English word for Jooth, perhaps because this concept is not present in the Western culture. The idea is that one’s Karma and nature gets transferred to deeds one does, including cooking food. The Avastha of a person gets affected by the food one eats. Jooth in essence is some sort of contamination or pollution that is infected by a person who is a non-devotee (non-Gursikh). Somehow, the Karmic dirt of one's sins affects the food one prepares and this is called Jooth. This Jooth is avoided by Gursikhs, by eating food prepared by Gursikhs alone. Food prepared by non-devotees, who don't worship Vaheguru, commit blatant sins, is avoided by Gursikhs and this avoidance of food prepared by non-devotees and partaking food prepared by Gursikhs is called Dietary Bibek in Sikhi.

 

[findingmyway]

Whenever this topic comes up I have one fundamental question.

How can the concept of jhooth/joot and the concept of langar be reconciled?