Jasdir ji,
I copy pasted your message into Word last night with the intention to compose a reply to you today. Apparently it seems that you have removed all your messages and probably left. But in case you are reading in, here is my response which I hope you will not mind me having posted.
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Quote:
<<Anyhow think "I" that it would be difficult for u to belive that:
The "Time" comes when somebody in real changes from wordly to A true devotee,
"Time" is the reason,
"Time" is the cause,
"Time" is the concern,
"Time" is the condition,
Nothing can happen before "Time",
Example: When romeo falled in "Love" with Juliet, It was not decided,
It was the "Time",
Similerly: When in true sence, somebody fall in "Love" with "God",It is not decided, It "Happens", or It is the "Time" ,
"Love" is not the thing to do, It "Happens" naturelly,
"Pyaar kiya nahin jata, hoo jata hai",
There is not any difference between "Bhakti" or "Love", "Love" means "Bhakti", "Bhakti" means "Love",
"Love" can only push somebody to the higher peaks of spirituality,
There are no rites and ritules in true "Love",
"Jin pream kiyo tin prabh payo" - guru gobind singh ji,>><end quote>
Thank you for your answer.
I think what you are basically saying is that, what will happen will happen when the conditions are right. As a general statement I agree with this, with the proviso that it is about impersonal realities and no implications of determinism. However I wasn’t seeking an answer in terms of ‘time’, but more precisely what are the conditions that are encouraging of worldliness and those that lead to the opposite. In this regard you do refer to the presence and absence of ‘love’ as determining factor, which of course I don’t agree with, given especially that ‘attachment’ is what most people go by mistaking it for love / kindness.
But never mind. You’re bringing up this has been cause for some of my own thoughts on the matter, but given that I’ve never read anything along the same lines by anyone else, it therefore must contain some faulty reasonings. I put them forward for your consideration, so please let me know what you think.
It is obvious that so long as we continue being infatuated by the ways of the ‘world’ we remain worldly. If our morality is based on the actions of others, then we are indeed very far from being independent and our judgements based on Truth. One good reference point might be in considering the ‘eight worldly conditions’, namely, gain and loss, fame and disgrace, praise and blame, and pleasure and pain. It would seem that so long as we continued being *moved* by these, the conditions leading to our rising above them need much development.
If for example, we look for praise then our actions are likely to be dictated by worldly values. Even if not initially, such as when we think in terms of ‘good’ actions, the attachment to being praised often takes over and pollutes our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong. And when we are moved by blame on the other hand, usually, this is because of self-consciousness and conceit that we then feel ‘guilty’ (this is aversion again), rather than a sense of moral shame.
Gain and loss is often related to material wants, which is of course to be expected and therefore fine to that extent. However, as for example people’s desire to be rich and avoiding being considered poor, this becomes more a matter of worldly values. Sometimes we gain something and sometimes we lose, however we are quite carried away by the one and disturbed by the other and this is because we hate the idea of say, having made a foolish investment and like the idea of being clever. Again the result of such an attitude is an inclination not to live by moral values and lacking in kindness. One looks to one’s own gain and is ever ready to step on other people’s feet.
Fame and disgrace are clearly so irrelevant, but many people seek to have one and avoid the other. Again, it usually has nothing to do with trying to develop good qualities, but rather whatever it is that the world accepts and not. One seeks to be popular in school, within one’s community, country or the world, as a pop star, actor, football star, social critic, politician, leader, activist, scientist, billionaire, writer, TV personality, or even as someone who helps the destitute. So long as there is concern for one’s “image”, one must surely then remain worldly.
Pleasure and pain is of course a big motivating factor. And so long as attachment has not been eradicated, we’d be moved by this till the end of existence. However, often this is associated with perversion not only of perception and consciousness, but also that of ‘view’. The influence of this latter is such that often, though we may already have enough to be happy with, our yearning for more ‘possessions’ cause us again to disregard morality and other kinds of good. We want to also have the 60” LCD TV that our neighbour has or the Lexus that our richer friends drive. And it is not the case that it follows from here that our moral values become corrupted, but in fact that we lack understanding. After all, in terms of the pleasant experiences and basic necessities, we had enough already!
So what is the cause underlying all this? Ignorance and craving is of course at the root. However, it would seem that “perversion of view” in particularly is tied to this phenomenon of being a ‘worldly person’ and the attachment associated is that to “self”. The perception of ‘self’ is what leads to taking other people so seriously, so much so that their values, unworthy though they are, becomes the object of our emulation. But of course it is not that we becomes influenced by them, but rather that we *are* like them.
And what is the solution? Developing wisdom. This of course means that we understand who we are, as we are?
It does not mean that we try to get rid of things or stay away from society. It means that we understand that these eight worldly conditions are only the result of our good and bad deeds in the past and any associated thoughts in the moment. More importantly it is to be understood that these are fleeting and not worth holding on to. Failing this results in so much perversion of mind, for example, a sound of praise has arisen and fallen away, yet we cling to it, relishing the idea, when in fact behind our back, that same person could be criticizing us. And this is how it is with all these eight worldly conditions. They arise and fall away in an instant, yet because there is so much ignorance about their true nature, we continue instead, to chase the dreams that are conjured.
They arise when they do and we get what we deserve, no use trying to control anything. It is hard enough that we remain ignorant about all that happens to us, it becomes even harder when overlooking basic morality, we begin then to accept worldly values. An otherwise moral person easily becomes corrupted if he doesn’t know better. We can as they say, ‘be in the world but not of it’ and the only way that this will ever be maintained and move further in the positive direction, is with the development of understanding who we are. ;-)
PS: I don't know your reasons Jasdir ji, but I sincerely hope that you will continue writing and expressing yourself here. It is always good to put forward one's ideas allowing them to be tested.
