Uch Da Peer

[seeker3k]

Uch da Peer.

There is a story about Guru Gobind Singh that he was saved by Muslims by dressing his as their Peer. I believe that this story is wrong. It never happened. It can not happen.
Who ever made the story never seen any Peer. It was just to glorify the Guru.
If any one can see the Peer even now days. Peer Have beard but no mustache. How then Guru was passed as Peer. All the Muslim knows Peer must shave his mustache.

What I am saying is we must get to the truth before accepting any thing.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

here is an image of a peer with moustaches and untrimmed beard

Google Image Result for http://www.ajmerchishtyshrine.com/Mian-Sahab.jpg

 

[AusDesi]

From the drawings of Bulleh Shah. He had a beard and a moustache. Beard but no moustache is the sign of a Mullah not a Pir as far as I know.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

if outer symbols made a person, world would have been a different place

 

[seeker3k]

here is an image of a peer with moustaches and untrimmed beard

Google Image Result for http://www.ajmerchishtyshrine.com/Mian-Sahab.jpg

The point is well taken. I apologies for the question.
Here is the second part of the question. The Guru and the 5 beloved pretended to be Muslim. They must have taken the 2k’s off then. The kirpan and Kara. The most visible ones.
Is it ok to pretend to be of other religion for just cause? Only the person who is pretending can know what is the just cause is.

 

[spnadmin]

seeker3K ji

Forgive my ignorance on this point. Were the 5 k's given at the first amrit? Can you guide me to an authoritative reference on this? Much appreciated because it is again one of those points that converges with what Guru Gobind Singh did historically and wht may have been added. I am uncertain on this point.

 

[seeker3k]

Read my question on uch da pir

 

[spnadmin]

Read my question on uch da pir

I did read your question the first time around when you wrote it. I am asking -- Do you know of any writings where the 5 k's were given personally by Guru Gobind Singh?

You added this sentence later: Here is the second part of the question. The Guru and the 5 beloved pretended to be Muslim. They must have taken the 2k’s off then. The kirpan and Kara. The most visible ones.

My question assumes that Guru Gobind Singh may not have warn "kirpan and kara" in the way they are worn today(in other words, Guru Gobind Singh and the 5 beloved wore the kripan and kara as normal attire and for religious reasons). Every soldier had a kirpan, and many people including Hindus who are not Sikhs wear/wore a kara, and so they do today. So it may not have made any difference and he may not have had to remove anything. If you are stating indirectly that you are not aware of any authoritative writings on that subject -- then fine. I just wanted to understand you point of view.

 

[seeker3k]

Do you mean that Guru Gobind Singh did not bapized the five beloved in 1699? He also took amrat from the five. That act was the foundation of democratic act. It was never done before by any one. Where Guru take amrit from chelas.
I am sorry if I am not making it clear to you.
When Guru Gobibd Singh pretended to be uch da pir. He must have taken the kirpan and kara off? and the five beloved those were with him must aslo have taken them off too. So that they would not be recognized as sikhs. My question is: is it ok to take them off for a just cause?

 

[spnadmin]

Thank you seeker3k ji

What I am suggesting is that no one had to take kirpan and kara off because a) many Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims mean and women wore a kirpan in those days and b) many people wore kara, not just Sikhs. So there was no need to remove them in order to maintain a disguise. Moreover, there was no moral question if they probably never removed kirpan and kara to begin with.

Today many people wear kara. Just a sidenote.

Sorry if I have taken you off on a tangent. It was not my intention.

 

[seeker3k]

I did read your question the first time around when you wrote it. I am asking -- Do you know of any writings where the 5 k's were given personally by Guru Gobind Singh?

You added this sentence later: Here is the second part of the question. The Guru and the 5 beloved pretended to be Muslim. They must have taken the 2k’s off then. The kirpan and Kara. The most visible ones.

My question assumes that Guru Gobind Singh may not have warn "kirpan and kara" in the way they are worn today(in other words, Guru Gobind Singh and the 5 beloved wore the kripan and kara as normal attire and for religious reasons). Every soldier had a kirpan, and many people including Hindus who are not Sikhs wear/wore a kara, and so they do today. So it may not have made any difference and he may not have had to remove anything. If you are stating indirectly that you are not aware of any authoritative writings on that subject -- then fine. I just wanted to understand you point of view.

You are missing my question/
All you are talikng about the authoritative proof. what proof you want?It was guru Gobind Sing made the condition that every sisk must ware 5k's
Or all this is wrong becase there is no one liveing that have seen Guru giving these insrutions.. This is my last post on this topic. people here dont understand the quesion. Good luck

 

[spnadmin]

seeker3k

First you said this, There is a story about Guru Gobind Singh that he was saved by Muslims by dressing his as their Peer. I believe that this story is wrong. It never happened. It can not happen.
Who ever made the story never seen any Peer. It was just to glorify the Guru.
If any one can see the Peer even now days. Peer Have beard but no mustache. How then Guru was passed as Peer. All the Muslim knows Peer must shave his mustache.


And then you said this The point is well taken. I apologies for the question.
Here is the second part of the question. The Guru and the 5 beloved pretended to be Muslim. They must have taken the 2k’s off then. The kirpan and Kara. The most visible ones. Is it ok to pretend to be of other religion for just cause? Only the person who is pretending can know what

You are only asking one question in all of this - Is it ok to pretend to be of other religion for just cause?

You are also pointing out that Guru Gobind Singh might have shaved his mustash, and he might have removed his kirpan and kara. I am asking you -- because this is supposed to be a 2-way conversation -- Why would he do that? He did not have to do any of it? Why did you ask about it? :welcome:

That's all


I guess I am missing your question. Why would Gobind Singh remove his kara and his kirpan? That is my question to you in return. I am asking it because I don't understand why you are concerned that he did

 

[AusDesi]

I think that in order to trash the story, Seeker3K has forgotten about reality. Apart from being a Religious leader, Guru Gobind Singh was also a Warrior and a leader of the community. It makes perfect sense for him to remove 2Ks in order to save his life and leading the Sikhs into the next battle. A smart leader would never give his life cheaply. Without a Good Leader An Army is nothing.

Now, personally I don't know if the story is true BUT if it is true it doesn't say anything bad about Guru Gobind Singh. by removing the 2Ks temporarily He would not become a Muslim but he would live to fight another day. Without him, The Mughal army might have annihalated the sikhs who knows.

 

[harbansj24]

This is what Bhai Vir Singh ji said (as I hurriedly scanned it and strictly as I have understood it) in Guru Kalgidhar Chamatkar (vol 2 Chp 70 &72).

After 3 nights of fierce battle at Chamkaur in which 40 odd Sikhs inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy. Now only a handful of Sikhs were left and the end of battle was imminent. 2 elder Sahib zade were already martyred and there was real danger that the enemy would close on Guruji. His Sikhs pleaded with him to leave the area in the interest of khalsa Panth. Because his presence was must for survival of and continuation of Panth. An immediate decision was taken by Khalsa that Daya Singh, Dharam Singh and Maan Singh will accompany Guru ji out of the Chamkaur Garhi from the back side under cover of darkness and that Sant Singh, Sangat Singh, Ram Singh, Kehar Singh, Santokh Singh and Deva Singh would stay back to give Cover to Guru ji and 3 others as they escape and then fight to finish with their lives.

Guru ji finally agreed to this as command from Khalsa. He handed over the Kalgi, his bow and quiver of arrows to but he and 3 others accompanying him donned dark gowns BUT CARRIED OTHER SHASHTRAS with them. As they were leaving the Garhi, Guru ji noticed a few enemy gaurds with flame torches. As alert as ever Guru ji yelled and clapped from a distance that Guru and "Hind Da Pir" has escaped. In the darkness and with dark gown, the guards did not suspect the identity of Guru ji and his followers. Instead they ran towards the Garhi and ran into their own soldiers. In the melee Guru ji got separated from the other three. But earlier he had warned them that in case they got separated they should follow in the direction of a certain star.

As the confusion persisted the remaining Sikhs decided that Sant Singh looked very similar to Guruji and asked him to don his dress and Kalgi. After some time the enemy regrouped and launched the final attack in which the remaining Sikhs got martyred. The enemy came across the handsome body of Sant Singh which looked identical to Guruji. There was much celebration in their camp at this sight. So this gave Guruji much needed leeway.

Now as guruji came out into the clear he sat down to take some rest. Then 2 Gujjar brothers came along and one recognized Guru ji and expressed his amazement. Guru ji asked him to keep quiet but he said he will take his bounty by handing him over. He opened his mouth to yell. Guru ji put his hand on his mouth drew his Kirpan and slew both of them.

I did not come across the expression of Unch Da Pir

Thereafter his journey through Machiwada began.

I am sure this too is not a perfect reproduction of Bhai Sahib's narration. Maybe anyone else who reads this book can do it better.

 

[spnadmin]

Harbhansj24 ji

Thanks for your careful, detailed, and comprehensive explanation of the story and answer to the original question. That was all I was asking for. An authoritative account of the incident.

Even without the story -- it would IMHO make complete sense for Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji to either take them off (kirpan and kara) or leave them on (for reasons i stated already). The fact that we are told he did this after considerable reflection and consultation is more evidence that Dasam Pita was a man of great depth and wisdom and not a gallant hothead as many depict him to be.

Again, thanks for the story and katha. I appreciate it.

Ausie ji -Your remarks follow in bold. They make sense to me. And thanks for your insight. Yes! Without the "wisdom" as well as the "intellect" of Guru Gobind Singh nothing of Sikhism woud have persisted. Your comments follow. ...Apart from being a Religious leader, Guru Gobind Singh was also a Warrior and a leader of the community. It makes perfect sense for him to remove 2Ks in order to save his life and leading the Sikhs into the next battle. A smart leader would never give his life cheaply. Without a Good Leader An Army is nothing. .... Without him, The Mughal army might have annihalated the Sikhs who knows.