What Is The Truth? Word Or Intent?

[Harry Haller]

What is the truth, is it the word being truthful, or the intent? for instance, if your partner asks you if they look fat, whilst they are feeling a bit down, is the truthful answer yes or no? In my mind, the truthful answer is no, yes is merely a possible confirmation of facts, depending on the actual fatness, whereas no is a lie, but with truthful intent, what do you think?

thank you

 

[seekingsikhi]

I suppose we also have to consider the other's intent behind asking the question; at least in terms of the situation as you've set it up. If the question is being asked in the hopes that you'll boost their ego, then what we've got is a different question: do you falsely boost their ego by lying to them and allowing them to lie to themself? Are you honest with them, knowing that they are expecting dishonesty from you? There's no right answer to questions tinged with dishonesty - consciously or subconsciously; innocent or malicious in nature. It's the blackness on the bronze. We try to rub it away with justifications but the taint of blackness sticks around.

My wife asked me that question once. I froze, not because I thought she was fat, but because I knew SHE thought she was fat. Looking back I wish I had said something along the lines of "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful. But if YOU think you're fat, and you're unhappy about it, then let's make some changes so you can feel better about yourself."

 

[Balbir27]

What is the truth, is it the word being truthful, or the intent?

Harry Ji

You appear to come up with the most profound topics. So please bear with me.

Simply saying something is your outward expression of your own thoughts, regardless if truthful or not. It comes from your Mind/Consciousness/Soul converted into sound using the vocal cords and tongue and air (opposite of Gods “Anhad” meaning sound caused without a physical medium).

Let’s start with “The truth is rarely pure and never simple” (Oscar Wilde).

It becomes the truth for you, if you know it is, as far as the information you have is concerned.

On the other hand, it may be a lie for you, knowing you cannot tell the truth because someone else may get hurt or you are protecting someone for their own good (the boundary lines here get pretty thin).

So, the context in which Truth is being used is more important than truth itself.

The intent next becomes important, for “A truth that’s told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent” William Blake).

It is entirely a different situation for the recipient of your uttered words. They may be assessing your honesty, they may be looking for support or they may be investigation a matter. Here lies the effect (desired/undesired/ unpredicted) which you will no doubt try to gauge before saying anything.

Your example may be a situation where, a “white lie” is better than saying the truth because the truth sometimes hurts and it not be appropriate here. Or you may postpone the truth because

“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes” (Mark Twain).

Whether you decide to tell the truth, a half-truth or a lie depends on you entirely, your own free will.

Truth in a Spiritual context is a tangentially different concept, albeit related (example, a lie told intentionally and which causes harm, may inevitably have karmic paybacks).

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry Ji

You appear to come up with the most profound topics. So please bear with me.

Simply saying something is your outward expression of your own thoughts, regardless if truthful or not. It comes from your Mind/Consciousness/Soul converted into sound using the vocal cords and tongue and air (opposite of Gods “Anhad” meaning sound caused without a physical medium).

Let’s start with “The truth is rarely pure and never simple” (Oscar Wilde).

It becomes the truth for you, if you know it is, as far as the information you have is concerned.

On the other hand, it may be a lie for you, knowing you cannot tell the truth because someone else may get hurt or you are protecting someone for their own good (the boundary lines here get pretty thin).

So, the context in which Truth is being used is more important than truth itself.

The intent next becomes important, for “A truth that’s told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent” William Blake).

It is entirely a different situation for the recipient of your uttered words. They may be assessing your honesty, they may be looking for support or they may be investigation a matter. Here lies the effect (desired/undesired/ unpredicted) which you will no doubt try to gauge before saying anything.

Your example may be a situation where, a “white lie” is better than saying the truth because the truth sometimes hurts and it not be appropriate here. Or you may postpone the truth because

“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes” (Mark Twain).

Whether you decide to tell the truth, a half-truth or a lie depends on you entirely, your own free will.

Truth in a Spiritual context is a tangentially different concept, albeit related (example, a lie told intentionally and which causes harm, may inevitably have karmic paybacks).

Hmm What comes out of my mouth and most peoples mouths is a sanitised version of thoughts, thoughts come and go a thousand times a day, not the most reliable thing to base a personality on, so speech tends to be a tactful and diplomatic version of our thoughts, however, explain truth in a spiritual context to me, can a lie told intentionally which causes good have similar good karmic paybacks?

 

[Balbir27]

sanitised version of thoughts

I concur with your idea regarding “sanitised” but only as far as, if, it is a lie (a sanitized thought). Therefore you are basically right to say that it is “not the most reliable thing to base a personality on, so speech tends to be a tactful and diplomatic version of our thoughts”. Thus the saying, “Don’t judge a book by its cover”. So, a sweet-talking person may have hidden ulterior motives while one who appears rough on the outside may have a heart of gold. Trust and your own judgement are your only reliable friends. Even then, the effect/result, sometimes is right and sometimes wrong. But we learn. It’s a hard world.

In the end, a lie is a lie, however much one may try to justify that it was for the good. The choice to do it, becomes personal and one must then balance the need for the lie and the effect on you. I believe that if I felt good then it was good. The “felt” comes from your inner conscience, the automatic built-in “Judge” who intuitively tells you from right and wrong and from good and bad. I wouldn’t have felt good if my lie led to a miscarriage of Justice, for example.

can a lie told intentionally which causes good have similar good karmic paybacks?

The simple answer here is that I have only an idea, (although I would like to think it does), but I believe that, for the moment, the previous para is somewhat relevant.

In addition, there is also the paradoxical concept of suffering oneself for telling the truth. For example, Galileo, about 400 years ago, basically said that the world is round (the Truth). However the authorities believed he was lying and he was persecuted and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. Now that’s food for thought.

 

[Harry Haller]

I concur with your idea regarding “sanitised” but only as far as, if, it is a lie (a sanitized thought). Therefore you are basically right to say that it is “not the most reliable thing to base a personality on, so speech tends to be a tactful and diplomatic version of our thoughts”. Thus the saying, “Don’t judge a book by its cover”. So, a sweet-talking person may have hidden ulterior motives while one who appears rough on the outside may have a heart of gold. Trust and your own judgement are your only reliable friends. Even then, the effect/result, sometimes is right and sometimes wrong. But we learn. It’s a hard world.

In the end, a lie is a lie, however much one may try to justify that it was for the good. The choice to do it, becomes personal and one must then balance the need for the lie and the effect on you. I believe that if I felt good then it was good. The “felt” comes from your inner conscience, the automatic built-in “Judge” who intuitively tells you from right and wrong and from good and bad. I wouldn’t have felt good if my lie led to a miscarriage of Justice, for example.



The simple answer here is that I have only an idea, (although I would like to think it does), but I believe that, for the moment, the previous para is somewhat relevant.

In addition, there is also the paradoxical concept of suffering oneself for telling the truth. For example, Galileo, about 400 years ago, basically said that the world is round (the Truth). However the authorities believed he was lying and he was persecuted and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. Now that’s food for thought.

you have proven my point,the ultimate truth bears little relation to the current truth, the truth of the moment, given that most words are merely agenda driven and ego led, then the whole concept of lie and truth, given the spoken word, seem largely irrelevant.

 

[Balbir27]

We agree to agree, on this point, at least.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

WORD is connect or Guru

To get the TRUTH or Intent. So to get the TRUTH that is ONE is getting intent or inner intention by which Word surfaces as speech.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Sikhilove1]

What is the truth, is it the word being truthful, or the intent? for instance, if your partner asks you if they look fat, whilst they are feeling a bit down, is the truthful answer yes or no? In my mind, the truthful answer is no, yes is merely a possible confirmation of facts, depending on the actual fatness, whereas no is a lie, but with truthful intent, what do you think?

thank you

External appearance doesn’t mean anything. The inner is just as important. If you react in Truth, your answer won’t be nasty, and you won’t be lying.

Someone once told me that if someone does my nindya or makes a negative statement about me, to tell them I’m Nothing. Which I agree with, for that is our True state and the real humility.

White lies are still lies. But if you live and speak according to the Actual Truth, you won’t be hurting anyone or lying.